Daugherty on Palmer.

[Kirkendall]

Daugh provides a very good perspective here.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - He takes a sack one play and throws 62 yards the next. He heaves an oh-no interception in one quarter, then leads an oh-my touchdown drive the next. Carson Palmer is a walking Kiss lyric: He drives you wild. He drives you crazy.

And for the foreseeable future, the Bengals will only be as good as he is.

Fair? Unfair? It doesn't matter. Not when the truth is there, week after week, staring the Bengals in the facemask. When the kid is poised and plays like an adult, the Bengals look like a playoff contender. When he reverts to adolescence and believes his golden arm can achieve the impossible, the Bengals slip back into Not-There-Yet-ville.

"He was thinking about trying to make something happen," coach Marvin Lewis said. The question had been about Cincinnati's last offensive play, second down from the Tennessee 9-yard line, 35 seconds to go, Titans up 27-20. Palmer fled the pocket, rolled right and held the ball until Titan Albert Haynesworth forced him to fumble.

"What was Carson's thinking on the last play?" someone asked Lewis. He was thinking about making something happen.

Instead of throwing the ball away, Palmer was too faithful to his obvious talent. He believed he could make a throw that wasn't there. "I'll know what to do next time in that situation," Palmer said.

And he probably will. It didn't help Cincinnati on Sunday.

For momentum-keeping purposes, this was a must-win for the Bengals, if they wanted to keep both eyes on the rest of this year. Now at 2-5, with games at Philly, New England and Baltimore, the organization has to lean a little toward the future. "Growing pains," said Duane Clemons.

The Bengals aren't the Steelers. Pittsburgh has armored its first-year starter, Ben Roethlisberger, in a consistent running game, a big-game defense and habitual winning. Roethlisberger might be The Man in the public's eye. But he doesn't have to be. The difference between Big Ben and Palmer is: In Pittsburgh, the cavalry always comes for Roethlisberger; in Cincinnati, Palmer is the cavalry.

The good part about this is, the Bengals have a few years to build around Palmer, until he's ready to be as good as his potential says he will be. The bad news is, that ain't happening this year.

For much of the game Sunday, the banged-up Titans, losers of five of their first seven games, had a three-man offense. One of the men was QB Billy Volek, starting his third NFL game. They had a defense that was a shadow of its former fierce self. Yet both were enough to keep the Bengals from advancing the momentum they gained last Monday night.

Week to week, Bengals losses assume a familiar shape.

The defense allows a running back to gain 100 yards and control at least some of the game. The offense alternates between impressive and impotent. Both sides are offsides all day. And Carson giveth and Carson taketh away.

"You feel like he's going to be real good," said wideout T.J. Houshmandzadeh. "But it's everybody. The better we play, the better he plays."

OK. But explain the Bengals' last drive without invoking Palmer's name. Starting at his 33 with 2:07 left and no timeouts, Palmer completed 5 of 8 passes for 58 yards. Two of the misses were clock-stopping spikes. Palmer looked like a 10-year pro. Until he didn't.

On second down from the 9, he rolled right and held the ball too long, looking for a home run. He should have taken a strike and focused on the next pitch. Instead, before Palmer could throw the ball away, Haynesworth hit him. Game, set, frustration.

He will get better. He's too good not to. Palmer has already shown he can take a hit and stand in the pocket. He has already shown he can read a defense and handle a blitz. The golden gun is obvious.

When his brain catches up with his fastball - when he throws the ball away on 2nd-and-9 - the Bengals will really have something.

That will take awhile. NFL quarterbacks are made, not born.

[HoosierCat]

Yah, I just posted that link in the other thread. Great minds think alike, I guess (except of course in tomorrow's choice between the giant douche and the turd sandwich! I swear, South Park keeps me sane...)

[BengalBobNC]

When the kid is poised and plays like an adult, the Bengals look like a playoff contender

Interpretation: When the o-line actually does it's job and Palmer can count on it reasonably, and the running game is working, and the defense does enough, the Bengals look like a playoff contender

When he reverts to adolescence and believes his golden arm can achieve the impossible, the Bengals slip back into Not-There-Yet-ville

Interpretation: When the o-line is giving up sacks, the running game isn't working, and the defense is being very generous, the Bengals slip back into Not-There-Yet-ville.

Like Kirk once posted, some people expected way too much, way too soon out of this team.

[Kirkendall]

Yah, I just posted that link in the other thread. Great minds think alike, I guess (except of course in tomorrow's choice between the giant douche and the turd sandwich! I swear, South Park keeps me sane...)

That was a great episode.

I think Daugh hit the nail on the head. Which includes we can BLAME Palmer for first-year-starting mistakes, as well as praise him for sudden awesome drives; but we can also look at other aspects of the team to critique, such as the offensive line or the defenses inability to slow down opposing teams drives so the offense can get out there not being thrown into pass-all-the-time mode. I would like to see Carson in a different situation right now, where his play isn't the entire focus of the team (i.e. Big Ben), but it is what it is.

[Bengal_Smoov]

Carson has to take the blame for this one, imo. Our run defense was stout(only gave up 147 yards ), our defense scored again and we still lost the game. That last play was just horrible, take the sack and get em' on the next play. It does comfort me that he is basically a rookie though. That type of play got Kitna on the bench and if it continues, could get Kitna off the bench. He has to make better decisions and he will, it is a process. Once Carson gets some experience and more weapons our offense should be dangerous.

I seriously hope we make a run for Shaun Alexander in the offseason, the man is easily one the best 3 running backs in the game today. Priest Holmes, Ahmad Green, and Shaun Alexander in no particular order, you could also through in Tiki Barber and Jamal Lewis.

[HoosierCat]

kirk:

That was a great episode.

I quite literally fell off my chair laughing during the Puff Daddy "Vote or Die" video bit. I have to take some time today and see if anyone's turned that into a download yet...

I think Daugh hit the nail on the head. Which includes we can BLAME Palmer for first-year-starting mistakes, as well as praise him for sudden awesome drives; but we can also look at other aspects of the team to critique, such as the offensive line or the defenses inability to slow down opposing teams drives so the offense can get out there not being thrown into pass-all-the-time mode. I would like to see Carson in a different situation right now, where his play isn't the entire focus of the team (i.e. Big Ben), but it is what it is.

Dead on. I have no problem admitting that I both thought and hoped Palmer would be better than he has been. But on the other hand, he has had far less help than we originally thought he'd have, too. Remember during the offseason how we believed that Carson would come into a far better situation than Klingler or Akili? Well, between Rudi's average (at best) performance, injuries to Warrick and the o-line, and the non-emergence of any of our three alleged TEs, he's been left with little more than Chad and TJ.

If I had to bet right now, I'd put my money on TE in the first round of the '05 draft...

[Kirkendall]

Hey Smoov - I think Carson's struggles definitely have shown. But I also think Brat isn't giving the team plays that suited for the style of play. He was put in a no-win scenario passing on 3rd and 7, 8, 9, and 10, most of the afternoon. I still would like to see Rudi rush more than 17 times (he averaged 3.4 yards per carry, which if you run him on first and second down, you'd be left with a 3 yards remaining for a first down). I would have liked to seen a play call to have Carson throw it mega-downfield; complete or not. I think everyone associated with the offense should be to blame. (and the defense for that matter).

Joisy, I'd still like to see us be more effective with defensive pickups in the draft (most notably, the line). I don't like the "pick-the-best-player" attitude that Marvin has kind of had in the past 2 drafts, rather pick a few positions in desperate need (like TE, Center, entire defensive line) and pick the best players from that pool. I think it would help the team more rather than having a first pick RB only contributing 2 plays (though injuries have had a lot to say on his performance as well).

[WhoDey42]

How about Norm Chow as Offensive Coordinator next year?

[R-U-D-I]

Talkin to a Puttsburgh fan the other day at work who made a good point. A lot of talk about how Pitt simplified their offense for Big Ben with limited number of plays and continue to expand. Carson had the year to watch and learn, but not play. Now he has been expected to come in and learn to do everything at once. Even with the extended practice time, seems like keeping things simple and letting his talent come through with slow expansion would've been a good idea. There's that hindsight thing again...

[Kirkendall]

Excellent Point.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Get rid of Paul Alexander and develop/draft/sign some real o-lineman and this offense could be unstoppable.

[BengalBobNC]

I always thought Paul Alexander was one of our best position coaches.

Am I wrong here???

[skyline]

When the kid is poised and plays like an adult, the Bengals look like a playoff contender

Interpretation: When the o-line actually does it's job and Palmer can count on it reasonably, and the running game is working, and the defense does enough, the Bengals look like a playoff contender

When he reverts to adolescence and believes his golden arm can achieve the impossible, the Bengals slip back into Not-There-Yet-ville

Interpretation: When the o-line is giving up sacks, the running game is working, and the defense is being very generous, the Bengals slip back into Not-There-Yet-ville.

Like Kirk once posted, some people expected way too much, way too soon out of this team.

Agreed entirely.

Yes, Palmer has looked good and bad. The reason, though, is not as much due to Palmer as it is the offensive line.

We lost in TN yesterday, because our lines were dominated on both sides of the ball for 4 quarters with very few exceptions. Palmer's fumble did not LOSE the game for us...it just sealed the deal.

Yes, when Palmer plays well, we do well. When he plays poorly, we do poorly. For the most part, though, you have to look deeper than that. When the O-line plays well, Carson plays well.