What positions do we address?

[Spor_tees]

Hair I know this might be silly to point out at this point, but what is the title of the thread? "What positions do we address?"

Like has been pointed out be several people before and you seem to gloss over it to simply make an argument or continue a failed debate, it's only October and to pick a front runner for actual prospect is almost impossible to make. There are a million factors that could change between now and draft time that could determine who the proper prospect could be. Injuries, what underclassman declare, draft position, the combine, and game performance for the remainder of the season are just a few examples.

Also you have some holes in your argument where you admit a failure of your own of drafting a player for need over a player you perceived to be of more value. That was a mistake that was made with Andre Smith and not necessarily one that will be made with this upcoming pick. You wouldn't be able to determine that until draft time comes, and even with that you have yet to give us a name of a draft pick yourself that you believe will be available and has more value than a potential replacement for Andre.

Everyone here is simply relaying their thoughts that RT is a position of need as we (some who believe he should be moved to RG to replace Bobbie and those who believe we should just draft his replacement for when he leaves after next season) believe it is a position of "need." We are in no way of implying that when draft time comes, we pass up Trent Richardson with the 25th pick in the draft to take some RT that is the top guy left on the board. AS a collective we are just saying that we believe it is a position that requires improvement. As do some of also believe that LG is a position that needs some improvement. Now just because two of the positions on the team that need improvement happens to come on the offensive line doesn't mean that I want just any offensive lineman. It means I want one that fits the teams needs.

[HairOnFire]

the kid I like the most, DeCastro, isn't considered worthy of a 1st round pick by many, and I'm not willing to "stand on the table" arguing differently.

Tell me about this kid who plays in your backyard - Kalil

Honestly I dont know much about him and would like to hear what you think

FWIW about two weeks ago I scanned the draft sites for the very first time this year. As always the very first thing I noted was where players I know reasonably well were projected to go in comparison to players I admit I'm mostly unfamiliar with. As for Kalil, after noting how often he was projected as a Top5 pick I briefly considered swallowing my gum in protest.

[HairOnFire]

....it's only October and to pick a front runner for actual prospect is almost impossible to make. There are a million factors that could change between now and draft time that could determine who the proper prospect could be. Injuries, what underclassman declare, draft position, the combine, and game performance for the remainder of the season are just a few examples.

It's remarkable how firm your positions are when you consider how often they're built mostly upon smoke and vapors.

That said, you've convinced me to ignore threads like these until a later date. Perhaps in springtime, after the first official sighting of Mike Mayock.

[HairOnFire]

So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside,

Did that refer to Andre Smith? You think he's actually good at RT? Seriously? I mean I know it's hard for you to say you were wrong given how hard you campaigned for him before the draft, but come on. In this case it makes sense because he's strong but has bad feet. Does that sound like a Guard, or a Tackle?

If Smith has such bad feet how is it possible he ranks as the 2nd best pass blocker on the Bengals line, and a very solid pass blocker amongst his NFL ORT peers? (Per PFF)

The sad truth is Smith hasn't been much of a run blocker this season, something I'm guessing is due to his own struggles, the Bengals revolving door at ORG due to Bobbie Williams suspension, and last but not least the fairly miserable run and pass blocker of TE Jermain Gresham on either edge, something most of you acknowledge while mumbling under your breath, but refuse to speak openly about.

[Spor_tees]

So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside,

Did that refer to Andre Smith? You think he's actually good at RT? Seriously? I mean I know it's hard for you to say you were wrong given how hard you campaigned for him before the draft, but come on. In this case it makes sense because he's strong but has bad feet. Does that sound like a Guard, or a Tackle?

If Smith has such bad feet how is it possible he ranks as the 2nd best pass blocker on the Bengals line, and a very solid pass blocker amongst his NFL ORT peers? (Per PFF)

The sad truth is Smith hasn't been much of a run blocker this season, something I'm guessing is due to his own struggles, the Bengals revolving door at ORG due to Bobbie Williams suspension, and last but not least the fairly miserable run and pass blocker of TE Jermain Gresham on either edge, something most of you acknowledge while mumbling under your breath, but refuse to speak openly about.

Let me pose a question. Do LT in the NFL get paid more than RT? I'll assume you say yes since the numbers clearly show it. So then we have to surmise the reason why. Well generally LT face the more elite DEs in the league because they are more often than not attacking a quarterbacks 'blindside.' So, that would mean that Andre would be going against the less dangerous DE on most teams, and even when going against the Colts, he was playing against incredibly less inspired foes in Mathis and Freeny. Other than those two guys, his competition has been quite diminished. Dumervil was out for the Broncos which made a huge difference. So in a 6 game capsule it is pretty hard to crown Smith a 'great' blocking tackle.

As far as run blocking, you are correct in a lot of your aspects, except the fact that the coaches continue to run over Smith's behind for some reason, over and over. I've made my case numerous times about what I feel is Smith's weaknesses and why he would be a better fit at guard. The guy just doesn't move well in space and he is unable to collect 'loose' blocks on LBs and DBs. He is a straight ahead road grater which worked fine in college but it doesn't work for a tackle in the NFL. Once again, Leonard Davis is a perfect example.

[Sea Ray]

The sad truth is Smith hasn't been much of a run blocker this season, something I'm guessing is due to his own struggles, the Bengals revolving door at ORG due to Bobbie Williams suspension, and last but not least the fairly miserable run and pass blocker of TE Jermain Gresham on either edge, something most of you acknowledge while mumbling under your breath, but refuse to speak openly about.

I think that's the main reason. Truth be told, I think Smith is doing fine but the issue is what kind of money is he worth? In other words, is he re-signed for beyond next year or not? We don't have to answer that question now. It can wait until after the draft but it is an issue that is fast approaching. At the right price, I'm prepared to retain Smith as my RT beyond 2012. How 'bout you?

[HairOnFire]

The guy just doesn't move well in space and he is unable to collect 'loose' blocks on LBs and DBs. He is a straight ahead road grater which worked fine in college but it doesn't work for a tackle in the NFL.

Sure it does, especially if the player in question isn't a liability as a pass blocker. And again, Smith grades out very well as a pass blocker....making a bit of a mockery out of Cheese's rant about Smith having bad feet. Because you simply can't be a solid pass blocker if you have bad footwork. And like you admit, Smith can be a "road grader" in the running game.

And FWIW I think you're off base claiming the Bengals continue running behind Smith "over and over" without success. Truth be told the run towards the right side almost half as often as they run to the left, and rank well below the NFL average for rushing attempts to the right side. Part of that is probably due to Smith's inability to consistently block targets on the 2nd level, but I'm guessing it has even more to do with the ORG spot missing it's starter for 4 weeks and the consistently poor blocking of Cincy's favorite sacred cow at TE.

[Spor_tees]

The guy just doesn't move well in space and he is unable to collect 'loose' blocks on LBs and DBs. He is a straight ahead road grater which worked fine in college but it doesn't work for a tackle in the NFL.

Sure it does, especially if the player in question isn't a liability as a pass blocker. And again, Smith grades out very well as a pass blocker....making a bit of a mockery out of Cheese's rant about Smith having bad feet. Because you simply can't be a solid pass blocker if you have bad footwork. And like you admit, Smith can be a "road grader" in the running game.

And FWIW I think you're off base claiming the Bengals continue running behind Smith "over and over" without success. Truth be told the run towards the right side almost half as often as they run to the left, and rank well below the NFL average for rushing attempts to the right side. Part of that is probably due to Smith's inability to consistently block targets on the 2nd level, but I'm guessing it has even more to do with the ORG spot missing it's starter for 4 weeks and the consistently poor blocking of Cincy's favorite sacred cow at TE.

I can't remember the game in particular I think it was the Cleveland game were the announcer made a big halabulu about how the Bengals kept running to the right and not behind Whitworth. Then almost as if on cue, the Bengals ran a play behind Whitworth that broke for a TD. Is was almost as if the Bengals were doing an NFL style Rope-a-dope move.

Now to counter your footwork argument. Wouldn't it be Smith's lack of good footwork and vision that makes him a poor blocker in space and in the second level? So why is he all of a sudden a twinkletoes when pass blocking but two left feet when trying to block moving target?

[HairOnFire]

Now to counter your footwork argument.

Why bother? You've already made it clear you're more interested in spinning things than debating them intelligently. Or did I miss the meaning behind your latest offering, something along the lines of..."I don't remember what game it was but I remember this one play where a player we weren't discussing did something good."

BTW, since so many of you are in the mood for mea culpas how about some of you step forward and admit how Michael Oher has been every bit as disappointing as Andre Smith.

[Spor_tees]

Now to counter your footwork argument.

Why bother? You've already made it clear you're more interested in spinning things than debating them intelligently. Or did I miss the meaning behind your latest offering, something along the lines of..."I don't remember what game it was but I remember this one play where a player we weren't discussing did something good."

BTW, since so many of you are in the mood for mea culpas how about some of you step forward and admit how Michael Oher has been every bit as disappointing as Andre Smith.

Well to be quite honest I was still in the Orakapo camp. I also liked Mack but it was too high for him and it would have been a reach. I also like Crabtree because I knew the Chad experiment was soon to end. I'm glad I was wrong in that right because the Bengals now have Green. I was just never high on Smith in the first place and didn't see him as an athlete that would be a long term solution. I think they should of held on to Willie Anderson another year or so and got more value out of the pick.

[Spor_tees]

Why bother? You've already made it clear you're more interested in spinning things than debating them intelligently. Or did I miss the meaning behind your latest offering, something along the lines of..."I don't remember what game it was but I remember this one play where a player we weren't discussing did something good."

I looked back and I was indeed wrong, they rushed to the left the almost entire game and then in the late 4th quarter they rushed to the right and Benson got his lone long TD run of the season.

3rd and 3 at CLE 39 C.Benson right tackle for 39 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

The thing is you pointed out my mistake, but all it does is strengthen my argument. If the Bengals consistently run left behind Whitworth than doesn't that re-iterate their lack of trust in Smith's abilities? I know you will use the stability at RG as a crutch for your defense, but as many have pointed out here, LG is not much better and in fact many believe it is the #1 position of need in the up coming draft.

[HairOnFire]

The thing is you pointed out my mistake, but all it does is strengthen my argument.

If I used sigs in my posts I might pick the above, mostly because of the way it perfectly captures the mindset of the typical messageboard warrior.

If the Bengals consistently run left behind Whitworth than doesn't that re-iterate their lack of trust in Smith's abilities?

Perhaps. Or it might reflect the Bengals reluctance to run to the right due to the prolonged absence of Bobby Williams and the prolonged presence of Jermain Gresham.

I know you will use the stability at RG as a crutch for your defense, but as many have pointed out here, LG is not much better and in fact many believe it is the #1 position of need in the up coming draft.

Well, I now know that pointing out your mistakes only serves to strengthen your arguments, but have you considered the fact that ORG Bobbie Williams was the NFL's #1 rated OG in 2010 and hasn't ranked lower than 3rd in position rankings over the last 5 years?

[Spor_tees]

What's your source on Bobbie Williams? If it is indeed true, great for Bobbie Williams, he is one of the most overlooked guards in the NFL. During the last 5 years he has not gotten even a sniff of a chance of making it to the Pro Bowl despite obtaining such great stats. If he was still that great last year, and he continues that into 2011, the drafting of a second guard to replace Williams can probably hold off for a year. But the proof would be in the pudding.

[HoosierCat]

On the subject of Andre Smith and the o-line in general, Joe at CJ has updated the numbers through the first six games. Smith has indeed been a very good pass blocker, but he's the worst run-blocker on the line. Joe's write-up on Andre:

The Curious Case of Andre Smith

Andre Smith has a bit of a reputation, both good and bad. One of his good traits is his strength and ability in the run game to move the man in front of him. At least that was in his scouting report when the Bengals drafted him out of Alabama with the 6th overall pick. A left tackle at Alabama, Smith was supposed to be a liability as a pass protector but more than make up for it as a run blocker. That's the main reason most teams viewed him as a right tackle or even guard in the NFL.

Instead, Andre Smith has been a great pass protector for the Bengals in 2011. Through six games, we have graded Andre Smith with 48 Positive/Wining blocks and only 18 Negative/Losing blocks. His Win/Loss pass blocking ratio (2.5) is second to only Andrew Whitworth's (5.9). His ability to man the right side has granted Jermaine Gresham and the RBs the opportunity to catch more passes over the last few weeks. As the offense starts to rely on Andre Smith more as a pass protector, he keeps responding and his growth has been visible each week.

On the Flip side, Andre Smith hasn't been nearly as good as a run blocker as this team needs. While he is strong at the point of attack and when he gets his hands on the defender, he can really move them. Andre isn't very mobile and when he asked to block a LB, he usually can't get it done. Same with anytime Smith is asked to pull or get up field to make a block. Through six games, Andre has 27 Winning Block and 27 Losing blocks. For every Positive block he has, Smith has a negative block just around the corner. His run block ratio is the worst on the starting offensive line.

[Spor_tees]

Wow a 5.9 ratio for Whitworth is awesome, but to say Smith is second on the line with a 2.5 says more about how aweful the rest of the line is doing compared to how well Smith is doing.

[James_Brooks21]

Wow a 5.9 ratio for Whitworth is awesome, but to say Smith is second on the line with a 2.5 says more about how aweful the rest of the line is doing compared to how well Smith is doing.

I will be surprised if Cordy Glenn out of Georgia is not one of our first round picks next year, Eric Benedict Arnold Steinbach was the player I was most upset about losing in the last five years. That one hit me hard that not only he left but he went to the Clowns when he left. I don't think we will have a chance to draft Trent Richardson unless Oakland goes into a complete nose dive but Lamar Miller is steady creeping up the board. I'm scared as hell of drafting a running back in the first round unless he's a flat out stud like Adrian Peterson, and yes I know that Adrian Peterson had the shoulder injury his last season in college but you knew that he was going to be a beast if he could get past those injuries.

[SupaBran]

Wow a 5.9 ratio for Whitworth is awesome, but to say Smith is second on the line with a 2.5 says more about how aweful the rest of the line is doing compared to how well Smith is doing.

I will be surprised if Cordy Glenn out of Georgia is not one of our first round picks next year, Eric Benedict Arnold Steinbach was the player I was most upset about losing in the last five years. That one hit me hard that not only he left but he went to the Clowns when he left. I don't think we will have a chance to draft Trent Richardson unless Oakland goes into a complete nose dive but Lamar Miller is steady creeping up the board. I'm scared as hell of drafting a running back in the first round unless he's a flat out stud like Adrian Peterson, and yes I know that Adrian Peterson had the shoulder injury his last season in college but you knew that he was going to be a beast if he could get past those injuries.

I don't know what the deal with Georgia is but its all good with me. If he, or any lineman for that matter, is there and worthy of BPA + need then I'm all aboard and from what I've seen measurement-wise Glenn is a monster but my Gators play Georgia this week and I'll be watching him to see if he's legit vs a very good Gator D.

Trent Richardson is the can't miss prospect at RB and the only one worth one of our first in my opinion. Lamar Miller is nothing special. I've heard his name for about a month and started trying to catch more Canes games and from what I've seen I wouldn't even take him in the 2nd round. I'm actually switching back between the World Series and the Miami/Virginia game and again he's not doing much. If I'm gonna take a RB in the 1st then I don't think its too much for me to ask for him to make some sort of an impact versus the Virginia Cavaliers...I'm jus sayin

[Spor_tees]

Wow a 5.9 ratio for Whitworth is awesome, but to say Smith is second on the line with a 2.5 says more about how aweful the rest of the line is doing compared to how well Smith is doing.

I will be surprised if Cordy Glenn out of Georgia is not one of our first round picks next year, Eric Benedict Arnold Steinbach was the player I was most upset about losing in the last five years. That one hit me hard that not only he left but he went to the Clowns when he left. I don't think we will have a chance to draft Trent Richardson unless Oakland goes into a complete nose dive but Lamar Miller is steady creeping up the board. I'm scared as hell of drafting a running back in the first round unless he's a flat out stud like Adrian Peterson, and yes I know that Adrian Peterson had the shoulder injury his last season in college but you knew that he was going to be a beast if he could get past those injuries.

You know the problem I am having about Glenn is, he is all over the draft board on different sites. What are some of the guys seeing that others aren't? I have seen him as a first rounder and seen him rated as 2-3 round guy. That's a pretty huge difference really. The Bengals got extremely lucky getting guys like Whitworth and Steinback in the second round. I also looked back for like the last 3-4 years and I don't recall a guard being taking in the first round. I think the first non tackle I saw go in the first round was Alex Mack.

[Horsemen]

Don't let the facts that no one has asked for 5 first round OL and no team (us included) has 5 first round picks stop your rant. Heck, they didn't stop Bluto when he weant on about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor.....

Instead of trying to kick off a flamewar perhaps you would be better served scouring the web and you will find there is a growing contingent of moron in Bengaldom clamoring for Mike Brown to use both firsts on Offensive Guards and A/The first rounder next year on a Center. By basic calculations that would make four first round linemen with Whit being the odd man out. Which he would be as if Brown followed this strange fantasy it would only be a very brief matter of time before the same people whining for more first round Olinemen set their sights on calling for Whit's head merely based off the round he was drafted in.

On a similar note this isn't exactly my first foray into reading forums and opinion pieces and unfortunately it has been the same story for several years now, "hai guis let's draft another offensive linemen in the first." It's actually pretty transparent at this point what many want. Judging by you quickly rushing into this thread itching for an E-fight I am guessing you are taking offense due to belonging to said camp.

Actually, you draft for need, and we have plenty of 'need' on this unit.

Actually you prioritize needs, or rather good teams and GM's prioritize needs. If a good GM needs a shutdown Corner, a passrushing DE and a right guard guess which position falls to the end of that list? It isn't the DE or CB. For very good reason. A shutdown Corner WILL go quick, as well elite passrushers. 300lb Guards? Not so much. Unfortunately reality is unless they are a Logan Mankins clone or Mankins himself teams aren't going to pass up their other needs for less. Well Mike Brown may, I mean he did take a pass on Brian Orakpo and Sebastian Vollmer in order to draft a lard ass at RT that most teams dropped into the 2nd round on their draft boards and a MLB that took two years to half ass learn the position.

See the key point you missed in this rant? You draft for need, you don't REACH for need.

Starting to think you may be one of the Brown family. Every OL starter is important, and if a "special" player (in Hair's parlance) is available who projects to either Guard spot, we could certainly use him. We have a talented young quarterback - why not protect him better so his career lasts longer? Why not make his job easier by opening more and bigger holes in the running game?

Ahh you're one of THOSE types. Everyones important, noone else is more special than the next, even the little loser kids on the Pee Wee team are entitled to the trophy and gold star and all that. I see, I see. Well unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. Neither does the NFL and a right guard isn't even as important as a left guard much less the guys scoring points or preventing points.

As for Dalton being protected? That is a goal we all have. Some see that as possible in various ways while others tie a certain draft number to it as the only way. Some look at the big picture and can see that Dalton would be extremely well protected with a let's say Andy Levitre(2nd round), Louis Vasquez(3rd round), Doug Free(4th round) and Andrew Whitworth(2nd round) as he would with an Andre Smith, Maurkice Plumpy, Brian Bulaga and an Andrew Whitworth. In fact he would be ALOT better protected with those aforementioned mid round talents. Mid round talents that are somewhat regularly available in the draft nearly every year including this year. I could in fact do a breakdown for you of Offensive linemen drafted after the first round who kick some serious ass over the last decade. I could also break down the high level of Oline busts drafted in round one over the last 5 or so years. If you'd like, that is.

Or you can just continue to take offense to whatever bug is up your ass and continue throwing a temper tantrum, whichever.

....and he talked about winning the trenches, meaning both lines. Get it yet? Probably not, given the weakness of the thought processes your diatribe has made manifest thus far

I would suggest you look long and hard at many of your own posts before you go off on others for not falling lockstep into your opinions. Taking the plank out of ones eye and all that. It's good, it cleanses the soul, even the E-soul to do some deep introspection. Give it a try. I would also recommend detaching your emotions from mere internet posts as if "this is serious business" and try to maybe craft your reply in a more well thought out, less emotional manner. Just a suggestion.

[Horsemen]

I want to hear a solid analysis on why a LG is less valuable than, say, a S or a #2 WR which have been knocked around as the other alternatives for draft needs. Because other than a CB which I've already addressed as a need, what position are *you* looking at? Personally, I'd be more than happy to drop the first 3 picks on line*, line*, CB in no particular order.

*Offense or defense.

What positions am I looking at? Excellent question. Obviously Cornerback with one of the firsts. In fact I am not sure how that couldn't be the case with the NFL turning into more of a passing league than ever before. It is a hole, it is a weakness and it needs filled by an elite player or prospect. As to the other pick there are several positions. One would be a new SAM linebacker. Frankly I am tired of the let's plug CFL players, DE's and projects into the SAM position and hope it works. No, let's go get a prospect that plays the position at an elite level in College for a change. This D is top 4 and it is and has always been MY dream for the Bengals to build a D so fierce it is mentioned in the same breath of the greatest Defense of all time, the Doomsday Defense or even the runner ups Steel Curtain's, Purple People Eaters, 2000 Ravens ect. We're close and finally have the firepower...

Which brings up another two positions to look at: DE and DT. Yes we have some good ones already, however we don't have any downright dominate ones. If it is at all possible I would LOVE for us to go after a first round pass rusher at either position. A guy that can add 8+ sacks to Dunlap's ability. Last on the Defensive front would be Safety. Again the NFL being a passing league these days there is no such thing as too many hawkish defensive backs. Actually let's NOT make that the last one, I think the MLB spot could also use an upgrade. Maualuga isn't elite nor even above average, it wouldn't hurt to go after one of those prospects.

On offense I already tossed out WR and will toss it out once more. Like I said twice and now three times, the NFL wants to be a passing league and that is where we're heading. The days of smashing a WR's teeth in and pounding the ball are being phased out. I don't like it but i'm not Roger Goodell. The Bengals like everyone else can either accept what Rog' wants or fall behind to the teams that do. We already have what appears to be an awesome #1, we have a great slot guy once he returns from injury and we have a good TE. It doesn't make sense NOT to add to that with another elite WR prospect if we can. It would certainly benefit young Andy Dalton to have a stockpile of pass catching weapons in the WCO we're installing, would it not? I will say though, even though the NFL is going in a new direction teams need RB's and if Trent Richardson is there he would certainly warrant a look.

Hopefully the above helped to answer both of your questions. If not allow me to further expound briefly: We are installing a WCO. We haven't fully put into place as of yet thanks to the lockout. A major, major portion of the WCO is predicated on making quick strikes and getting the ball out of the QB's hand as soon as he completes his drop or a fraction of a second afterwards. We are no longer running Brat's system with a statue in the pocket. The WCO QB, especially the young one needs WR's who can quickly get open regularly that he can quickly deliver the ball to. That SHOULD answer you the value of WR's in this offense in contrast to overdrafted first round offensive guards whose jobs are to stand there blocking for 2-4 seconds.

Likewise the value of a Safety or CB falls under the category of this being a passing league and you know, us having to stop the pass more than previously. Hopefully that clears some things up.

[HairOnFire]

Trent Richardson is the can't miss prospect at RB and the only one worth one of our first in my opinion.

FWIW Richardson was on the Dan Patrick Show this morning and after mentioning how ripped he looked in the recent SI cover asked Trent how much he can bench press. Richardson claimed the most he's lifted at Alabama is 475 pounds....a total he said he lifted so "easily" it prompted Alabama coaches to expressly forbid him from attempting to lift more.

He also claimed the cover photo was staged to make Richardson appear to be shorter and more ripped up than he actually is.

[Kazkal]

No offense but outside of first round de hope they dont do most of what nagl says

[Kazkal]

Er 1sts rnd Cornerback