Carson Palmer Thread

[Sea Ray]

In fact, a participants skill level is often judged on their ability to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden. Dishonesty is viewed as a skill, not a character flaw.

True. This could be Mike going, "check... check... check..., all in." It could also be Mike playing the honest, straightforward thing where he scratches his head and is mystified by everyone wondering what he's thinking, when he just told everyone what he was thinking.

I know it's not realistic, but it would be so sweet go trade Carson out west, unload Chad, then let them both watch as the 2011 Bengals win the Super Bowl. Talk about the sweetest "back in your face" that we could ever get out of this situation.

Win the Super Bowl? How 'bout just sneak into the playoffs

[ArmyBengal]

The thought process that Mike Brown appears to have caved or not seems irrelevant in the scheme of it all.

Not to take from Charlie Sheen, but Mike Brown isn't "winning" here at this point and if Carson doesn't return, all the while teams have no idea what Brown sees as "fair value" seems kind of pointless.

I'm really trying to see alternative points here and not saying I'm right you are wrong, so please bear with.

How again, does Mike Brown lose leverage for trading Palmer by stating what he feels is adequate value for Palmer ??

I would think it allows teams to consider what it would take, a basis for counter offers, and allow Brown to strictly dictate the terms.

If a team isn't willing to meet his terms, then we are no worse off then we are now and Palmer retires.

It also would motivate Palmer's agent to go out and get a team to pony up, so to speak, knowing he has to make his client happy to get paid.

I haven't seen anything to make me believe Mike Brown is doing anything other that what he has exactly said.

Where does that get the team in terms of future returns ??

[Passepartout]

Mike Brown is one of the worst owners. It seems as he is up there with Dan Synder of the Redskins and Al Davis of the Raiders. They don't know what they are doing. In fact, those people whether it be staff, players, coaches, etc. Shouldn't be working for those jerks!

[HairOnFire]

It could also be Mike playing the honest, straightforward thing where he scratches his head and is mystified by everyone wondering what he's thinking, when he just told everyone what he was thinking.

True, but unlike most of us I'm still good with that. Because regardless of how I feel about Mike Brown as a person or a GM I simply don't support what Carson Palmer is attempting to do. Furthermore, if Palmer refuses to play for the Bengals again I will hold Palmer responsible for ending his own career, not Brown.

I know it's not realistic, but it would be so sweet go trade Carson out west, unload Chad, then let them both watch as the 2011 Bengals win the Super Bowl.

Sounds like I may not be the only stoner with a heart-of-gold to grace these pages.

[HairOnFire]

Not to take from Charlie Sheen, but Mike Brown isn't "winning" here at this point and if Carson doesn't return, all the while teams have no idea what Brown sees as "fair value" seems kind of pointless.

I fail to see where winning is even an option for the Bengals. For Mike Brown, from the moment Palmer confirmed he had asked for a trade I'd say this thing became a simple matter of determing what form of losing he's more willing to accept.

Or if you prefer, a pick your poison sort of choice.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm seeing something here that is easy to get lost in translation.

You said you don't support what Carson is doing and would blame him for ending his career, not Brown.

I see that statement exatly the same way you do, but that's not what I have issue with in regards to Brown.

I am simply of the line of thought there is nothing to gain by saying there is nothing to discuss.

While I use to support Carson, I am now thinking it would be great to see him sit at home like the little bitch he is, while the big boys play the game. That being said, I just want to see the organization get something in return for a commodity that would draw great interest.

Brown not doing that doesn't sit well with me.

Not that he cares...

[HairOnFire]

I'm seeing something here that is easy to get lost in translation.

You said you don't support what Carson is doing and would blame him for ending his career, not Brown.

I see that statement exatly the same way you do, but that's not what I have issue with in regards to Brown.

I am simply of the line of thought there is nothing to gain by saying there is nothing to discuss.

Well I guess that brings me back to the earlier discussion about whether Palmer's reasons, whatever they might be, actually matter. I say they do. In fact, I say they matter a great deal. Others say the reasons themselves don't matter. All that matters is moving on, and preferrably with something gained in exchange for Palmer.

Frankly, if Palmer continues to muzzle himself I'll never support what he's doing...in part because I believe Palmer's silence, now and earlier, is part of this teams core problem. Specifically, the way all of this teams most important and most expensive players choose to defer most of their leadership responsibilities. Palmer might brag about how much money he has and how easily it will be for him to step aside, but I can't help thinking that one of the reasons he was paid so well is because the team believed he had more character than he's currently demonstrating. And there's the rub because while many fans will debate whether Palmer has been worth his salary on the field...few will bother arguing that he's been worth his salary off the field.

[HoosierCat]

Frankly, if Palmer continues to muzzle himself I'll never support what he's doing...in part because I believe Palmer's silence, now and earlier, is part of this teams core problem. Specifically, the way all of this teams most important and most expensive players choose to defer most of their leadership responsibilities.

What exactly is Palmer guilty of not doing? Should he have ripped management like Dillon? Ripped coaching like Pickens? Skipped the offseason program like Chad and TJ?Demanded power over roster moves? He got that in at least two cases I can think of, TO and Kelly (inmates --> asylum). Plenty of players have left this team over the last eight years and have had ample opportunity to knock Carson for not being a leader. Offhand I can't think of one that did.

[ArmyBengal]

Not that i'm entitled to it or ever think I will hear it, but if our franchise QB and one of the highest paid players in the league says he would rather walk away from the sport as opposed to playing for the team I love, I am really curious in hearing him say why. I can probably guess, but hearing it from him would put my mind at ease.

Right now I just think he's a quitting little bitch.

"Screw you guys, I'm going home."

[Sea Ray]

What exactly is Palmer guilty of not doing? Should he have ripped management like Dillon? Ripped coaching like Pickens? Skipped the offseason program like Chad and TJ?Demanded power over roster moves? He got that in at least two cases I can think of, TO and Kelly (inmates --> asylum). Plenty of players have left this team over the last eight years and have had ample opportunity to knock Carson for not being a leader. Offhand I can't think of one that did.

It's been touched on before but for starters I'd like to see him act like Ced Benson and criticize the playcalling and more importantly criticize the execution. Say that Chad and TO are goofing off rather than working with him after practice like Marvin Harrison used to do with Peyton. My guess is Jerome Simpson would jump at the chance to stay late and work with Carson while Chad would laugh at him.

[HoosierCat]

It's been touched on before but for starters I'd like to see him act like Ced Benson and criticize the playcalling and more importantly criticize the execution. Say that Chad and TO are goofing off rather than working with him after practice like Marvin Harrison used to do with Peyton. My guess is Jerome Simpson would jump at the chance to stay late and work with Carson while Chad would laugh at him.

Well, I don't think either Benson or Palmer had much room to criticize TO and Chad last season. Benson specialized in putting the ball on the ground at crucial moments, and even if you chalk up half of Carson picks to his wide receivers, he still made a lot of dumb throws. Heck, there's no shortage of people who think he's washed up. To be able to do what Manning did to harrison I think you have to play a lot better than Carson did last year.

As for the playcalling, why would Carson criticize that? Brat built a whole offense around Carson's arm and would send him to the line with not one, not two, but three, plays to choose from every snap. If anything, Carson was part of the playcalling problem.

[F.Cleveland]

It's been touched on before but for starters I'd like to see him act like Ced Benson and criticize the playcalling and more importantly criticize the execution. Say that Chad and TO are goofing off rather than working with him after practice like Marvin Harrison used to do with Peyton. My guess is Jerome Simpson would jump at the chance to stay late and work with Carson while Chad would laugh at him.

Well, I don't think either Benson or Palmer had much room to criticize TO and Chad last season. Benson specialized in putting the ball on the ground at crucial moments, and even if you chalk up half of Carson picks to his wide receivers, he still made a lot of dumb throws. Heck, there's no shortage of people who think he's washed up. To be able to do what Manning did to harrison I think you have to play a lot better than Carson did last year.

As for the playcalling, why would Carson criticize that? Brat built a whole offense around Carson's arm and would send him to the line with not one, not two, but three, plays to choose from every snap. If anything, Carson was part of the playcalling problem.

When all three plays take 6 or 7 seconds to develop and you have roughly 4 or 5 until detonation... he could call any play and it would turn out the same. How many times last year was it evident that they needed to dink and dunk or go to a quick slant and yet Chad is running his out route or they're throwing the 15-20 yard double moves right into the safeties hitting sweet spot. TO's aligator arms and Chad's tendancy to fall down at the sound of footsteps and need to dive like a kid jumping into a swimming pool even if he doesn't need to may have contributed.

I'll grant you Carsoon made some dumb descisions but defenses rarely had to adjust to our playcalling, mostly because we didn't adjust until it was too late, if at all.

[HoosierCat]

I'll grant you Carsoon made some dumb descisions but defenses rarely had to adjust to our playcalling, mostly because we didn't adjust until it was too late, if at all.

Granted. But that still doesn't explain why Carson should have been speaking out against an offense that was designed around his arm. That's like expecting Benson to have complained about the 2009 offense that featured him and the running game.

[HairOnFire]

What exactly is Palmer guilty of not doing?

In a word, lead. Or as Greg Doyle so aptly put it, Palmer has steadfastly refused to use the influence that comes with his position and status, always preferring to act like just another cog in the machine.

Should he have ripped management like Dillon? Ripped coaching like Pickens?

Ripped? Who said anything about ripping? I'm talking about the simple act of offering constructive criticism and using influence as opposed to always playing the good soldier role from the moment you're drafted until a personal breaking point is reached.

Skipped the offseason program like Chad and TJ?

How about openly criticizing both players for the diva behavior that now defines them? Why leave it to players like Cedric Benson to state the obvious and demand specific changes?

Demanded power over roster moves? He got that in at least two cases I can think of, TO and Kelly (inmates --> asylum).

So in eight years you can think of just two examples where Palmer used his influence in the same manner as other franchise QB's routinely do? Not to mention how half of your examples amount to little more than asking management to bring back an aging FA who was already on the roster? (Kelly) As for the Owens example, he's just more proof of the Bengals providing Palmer with everything he's actually asked for.

Plenty of players have left this team over the last eight years and have had ample opportunity to knock Carson for not being a leader. Offhand I can't think of one that did.

Exactly my point. Most Bengal players don't criticize directly, don't speak specifically, and don't lead in any meaningful way. Rather, they defer to others....even when doing so means nobody leads. That said, you're wrong about no players being willing to criticize Palmer's leadership. Because even when Housh praises Palmer as an elite QB he freely admits that Palmer couldn't control Chad, Owens, or himself.

[HairOnFire]

But that still doesn't explain why Carson should have been speaking out against an offense that was designed around his arm.

So you think it's reasonable for a player to complain about nothing until he reaches a point where he's no longer willing to honor his contract?

Consider this. Since the end of last season Carson Palmer has stated all of the following. That he couldn't respect Mike Brown more, thinks Marvin is a great coach who should be re-hired, and had no problem with Bob Bratkowski. So you're right, he hasn't complained about the braintrust that built an offense, if not an entire team, around him.

But does any of this sound like leadership to you? Doesn't it smack a little bit of..."It's not you and it's certainly not me."

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

First, we're talking about negotiations that are openly compared to poker playing...where a certain amount of dishonesty is not only accepted, but is actually woven into the fabric of the activity itself. In fact, a participants skill level is often judged on their ability to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden. Dishonesty is viewed as a skill, not a character flaw.

Second, I reject the premise that Brown has said anything that would prevent another interested party from calling to inquire about Palmer when trades are possible.

Both true, but the question is still 'will Mike Brown trade Carson'? Unless the answer is 'yes', your points are irrelevant.

We have two operating hypotheses. The first is that Mike Brown, a wheeler-dealer with no ego involvement and a canny ability to manipulate the media, is using his public statements to create a market for his QB. The second is that Mike Brown, a spiteful man who will willingly hurt his team for nebulous 'principles', simply means what he says.

Where's your money going? I was willing to give benefit of the doubt when we saw this movie the first time, starring OchoDoucho. Until he proves otherwise, I have no reason to believe that he's doing other than what he's stating explicitly. Again, what his statements *could* mean is different from what *he* means.

Finally, the fact that Palmer isn't a willing participant makes the idea of not trading him at all a perfectly acceptable and viable option.....especially if no team agrees to offer "equal value".

How do you define equal value apart from the offers you get? This notion of determining what you think something should be worth and refusing to deal if you don't get that price is senseless. People screw that up when selling houses and sit on the market forever. Something is worth what someone will pay, given that he has no value to the Bengals. He didn't play well, his contract is too rich, and now he's quit. Any offer is better than zero. Given Carson's contract and play, I have no idea why anyone would think that multiple first day picks, as has been speculated, isn't a great deal.

The only value Carson has to the Bengals, aside from spiteful ego-involvement of the owner, is in the ability to recoup part of his signing bonus if he retires.

[ArmyBengal]

I am still waiting for what is to be gained by Mike Brown not saying he would listen to offers if a team were so inclined.

I get nothing can be done without a CBA, so save that and come up with why Mike Brown wouldn't want to listen to something that could potentially help his organization ?? I mean we already know he has lofty expectations of putting a "competetive" team on the field, right ?? Might as well start moving in that direction because last time I checked, 4-12 kinda sucked balls.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I am still waiting for what is to be gained by Mike Brown not saying he would listen to offers if a team were so inclined.

Some might argue that you'll get more by playing 'hard to get', and that there's time to get desperate when trades can actually happen. Hair will take that stance solely because it allows him to ascribe more credit to Mike Brown than he's due. That said, it's not a bad idea to wait a while and see if you can get some team to bid against itself. In theory, you could potentially get more that way.

However, you could also make a good case that by getting Carson involved and interested in the process earlier that you'll have time to craft a better deal, and that a team will give more if the situation is handled better.

The question is still whether Mike Brown will trade him or not, and all the rest is smoke from a certain orifice.

[HairOnFire]

First, we're talking about negotiations that are openly compared to poker playing...where a certain amount of dishonesty is not only accepted, but is actually woven into the fabric of the activity itself. In fact, a participants skill level is often judged on their ability to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden. Dishonesty is viewed as a skill, not a character flaw.

Second, I reject the premise that Brown has said anything that would prevent another interested party from calling to inquire about Palmer when trades are possible.

Both true, but the question is still 'will Mike Brown trade Carson'? Unless the answer is 'yes', your points are irrelevant.

Not true at all. Because my points have relevance when the answer is yes, as well as....maybe. Because as you said earlier, what Mike Brown is saying is a no-brainer. It's what he does later that matters most. So what will he do?

Let's recap and see if we can't flesh this thing out. Adding to the above you've just agreed that nothing being said will prevent interested teams from calling. And as our boy Hoosier has repeatedly pointed out, Brown has indeed listened to offers even after repeatedly telling the world he wouldn't. Finally, as COB has pounded home over and over again...Mike Brown has traded star players in the past. (Not always, but who would want that?)

We have two operating hypotheses. The first is that Mike Brown, a wheeler-dealer with no ego involvement and a canny ability to manipulate the media, is using his public statements to create a market for his QB. The second is that Mike Brown, a spiteful man who will willingly hurt his team for nebulous 'principles', simply means what he says.

Where's your money going?

On the third hypothesis. The one that claims Mike Brown is currently doing exactly what you admit you'd do, and will later decide whether to accept the trade offers we both agree he'll get. And yeah, if those offers aren't considered good enough, for any one of a dozen reasons, then Brown may or may not allow Carson Palmer to end his own career with an increasingly appropriate whimper. Because as you admit freely, Mike Brown and Carson Palmer owe each other nothing.

How do you define equal value apart from the offers you get?

If I'm Mike Brown I start by determining Palmer's value to me, both as a player AND as a retired player. Then I weigh that against my desire to offset his loss with a draft pick or two. Next, I weigh that potential gain against the loss of principle I'd be forced to live with AND the practicle implications that may result.

Something is worth what someone will pay....

Actually, true value is determined by the owner. What others are willing to pay is only opinion.

[ArmyBengal]

I guess I'm just at a "wait and see" point here.

While Brown may have done things one way in the past, he has equally done things another way. That being said, I have no idea how this particular situation is being handled, but will lean to the side that "believes" this time around, he means exactly what he says. Maybe he proves differently, but I'll play the part of the doubting Thomas until then.

For the record again, I don't think he should move Carson for the sake of move and I think Carson has a very high vaule that should be met.

I don't think a simple 2nd or 3rd rounder is sufficient.

No CBA is killing what could be a nice situation.

[HairOnFire]

Some might argue that you'll get more by playing 'hard to get', and that there's time to get desperate when trades can actually happen. Hair will take that stance solely because it allows him to ascribe more credit to Mike Brown than he's due.

While you on the other hand will surrender no credit even though you are currently walking in lockstep with everything Brown is doing. In fact, with your very next sentence you find yourself walking in unison with Brown yet again.

That said, it's not a bad idea to wait a while and see if you can get some team to bid against itself. In theory, you could potentially get more that way.

And there it is. Lockstep.

However, you could also make a good case that by getting Carson involved and interested in the process earlier that you'll have time to craft a better deal, and that a team will give more if the situation is handled better.

Well go ahead and make that good case. And maybe you can start by explaining how any of the above is even possible without a CBA. Not to mention a QB who has gone into hiding.

The question is still whether Mike Brown will trade him or not, and all the rest is smoke from a certain orifice.

Smoke from your orifice, right? After all, you're the only one writing as if you know with total certainty what's going to happen.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

On the third hypothesis. The one that claims Mike Brown is currently doing exactly what you admit you'd do, and will later decide whether to accept the trade offers we both agree he'll get. And yeah, if those offers aren't considered good enough, for any one of a dozen reasons, then Brown may or may not allow Carson Palmer to end his own career with an increasingly appropriate whimper. Because as you admit freely, Mike Brown and Carson Palmer owe each other nothing.

I think you're giving him credit for more mental flexibility than he's due, but we'll see, won't we? Though that last point isn't quite true...

If I'm Mike Brown I start by determining Palmer's value to me, both as a player AND as a retired player.

Would any sane person put the former to be greater to zero? As to the latter, it's about $8M of signing bonus, if Mikey chooses. I think Mike Brown wants to collect the cash.

Then I weigh that against my desire to offset his loss with a draft pick or two.

So now we're at $8M vs two draft picks. When's the last time picks were sold, incidentally? Was that feasible with the cap?

Next, I weigh that potential gain against the loss of principle I'd be forced to live with AND the practicle implications that may result.

What we know is that Mike Brown is the laughingstock of the league, and his principled stances (and others, really, the Chargers and Jets come to mind) have no deterrence value since players reneging on deals keeps happening. So that would be zero.

Unless you throw spite into the equation, the only possibilities that don't end up in a trade are 1) Mike Brown actually wants Carson to play next year, which is crazy at this point, 2) that he's a spiteful moron who will hurt the team to satisfy his own ego, or 3) that he's decided he wants Carson's bonus more than he wants to win football games.

[HairOnFire]

....I have no idea how this particular situation is being handled, but will lean to the side that "believes" this time around, he means exactly what he says.

Well, exactly what did he say?

That he doesn't see equal value, right?

So if a trade is to happen what needs to change?

[ArmyBengal]

....I have no idea how this particular situation is being handled, but will lean to the side that "believes" this time around, he means exactly what he says.

Well, exactly what did he say?

That he doesn't see equal value, right?

What "exactly" has he said ?? Easy. I'll refresh.

“I want him back.”

Sounds pretty simple.

“I haven’t talked to any other team about him. I have no plans to trade him.”

But we are to believe he has in fact spoke with other teams ??

“As far as getting value, I don’t see any opportunity to get what I consider to be value.”

I'd like to know what he does in fact consider value, but the above led to this next one.

“Having said that it doesn’t make sense to look to trade. It only makes sense to wait and hope Carson comes around.”

That just fills me with all sorts of optimism that Mike Brown is planning on moving Carson.

Again, I think people are giving Brown more credit than he's due in this particular situation and how he could gain.

Yeah, I know, there's no CBA, so it makes all of this difficult, but no CBA doesn't keep him from talking.

I see nothing above that would give me the impression he is.

[HairOnFire]

If I'm Mike Brown I start by determining Palmer's value to me, both as a player AND as a retired player.

Would any sane person put the former to be greater to zero?

Yeah, I would, at least until I had a suitable replacement, and that may come as early as the 4th overall pick in the draft. I hope it doesn't, but if it does the value Mike Brown still places on Carson Palmer is likely to crater. Value will change. Leverage will shift. Opinions and positions will change in an instant. But until things are known and outcomes determined there's no way the needle moves to zero. Like everyone who came before him, Palmer could be bluffing.

As to the latter, it's about $8M of signing bonus, if Mikey chooses. I think Mike Brown wants to collect the cash.

I don't think the idea has even crossed his mind. But I do think he's considered the 11.5 million Palmer is to be paid this year and then again next year. That's 23 mllion dollars of real money, not cap dollars, that can come off the books simply by doing nothing. And if the Bengals were already split about going forward with or without Palmer, as Marvin Lewis claimed, letting Palmer retire could solve nearly as many problems as his refusal to play created.