Shut out of the Pro Bowl

[HairOnFire]

Well, all of them in that case would pretty much be Moeaki, since none of the others have played anywhere near as large a role as Gresham has.

I'd say getting less more often is a poor argument.

If you want to rank him [Moeaki] ahead of Gresham among rookie TEs, that's fine by me, but I'm putting Jermaine No. 2, and not by much.

I'd rank 'em thusly. Gronkowski a clear and dominant #1, Moeaki a far distant #2, Hernandez a shockingly good but still limited #3, and an underwhelming Gresham at #4. Toss in a rapidly improving Jimmy Graham at #5 just to complete the traditional Top5.

[membengal]

Hair, I confess to NOT being underwhelmed by Gresham, but mostly because I strongly suspect that he could have been a lot more productive if Bratkowski were not committing coaching malpractice on a weekly basis.

[HairOnFire]

Hair, I confess to NOT being underwhelmed by Gresham, but mostly because I strongly suspect that he could have been a lot more productive if Bratkowski were not committing coaching malpractice on a weekly basis.

Nobody has said different, as I included poor coaching in my noodling.

Look, despite my complaints Gresham remains the same gifted prospect as he was on the day he was drafted. Next season might bring a breakthrough, right? But c'mon now, does anybody seriously think he deserves to be named to any all-rookie team ahead of the players mentioned?

Blaming coaches for the lack of production is all well and good and it's almost certainly deserved to a point. But by the same token I have very little problem saying Gresham simply hasn't been as good as advertised.

[membengal]

I am certainly not arguing him ahead of a few of the others, but don't know that I agree on the not-as-good-as-advertised part. In fact, his production is perhaps borderline remarkable given how f**ked up the Bengals are when it comes to using his position in their offensive approach and that getting good numbers is close to miraculous. Simply put, drop Gresham and those remarkable skillz into the NE system, and I am guessing his numbers easily outpace Gronkowski...

[HairOnFire]

Simply put, drop Gresham and those remarkable skillz into the NE system, and I am guessing his numbers easily outpace Gronkowski...

We can all speculate endlessly, but let's just say I doubt it. I read an article recently that noted how, despite the impressive production of both Patriot rookie TE's, they haven't managed to produce big yardage in the same game. Rather, New England often adjusts to defensive coverage by using Hernandez as a defacto WR while using Gronkowski primarily as a run blocker. Conversely, when defenses defend Hernandez as if he were a WR it opens up the middle for Gronkowski. The Patriots adjust their schemes and playcalling accordingly. The result, in regards to yardage, is a cycle of boom or bust for both players....and wins for the Patriots.

Granted, Gresham's production totals would be improved if he played in New England's offensive system, but only because the Bengals offensive schemes are heavily weighted towards the WR's. But by the same token, as a Bengal TE Gresham doesn't split receiving opportunities with another TE. In fact, he's gotten more opportunities than the more productive Gronkowski. As for their respective skill levels, Gronkowski is Gresham's equal as a receiver, has proven to be a vastly superior red zone threat, and has already proven himself to be one of the best blocking TE's in the entire NFL. And none of that is all that suprising since he likely would have been the first TE selected were it not for injury related concerns. He's not a fluke. Nor is he a product of a system. He's the real deal.

I am certainly not arguing him ahead of a few of the others, but don't know that I agree on the not-as-good-as-advertised part.

Again, his average per catch is less than every rookie TE who play significant snaps, and rookie TE's who have played a fraction of the snaps Gresham has been given have managed to produce a comparable number of TD's. And as the example from the Jet game proved, some of that blame for Greshams modest numbers doesn't fall on the coaches. Rather, it falls directly on the player who blew a chance to score because he didn't adjust his route and ran straight into the LB.

[membengal]

I look at this differently than you do, I suppose, but find it awfully premature to dissect what Gresham has, and has not, gotten done this year given the f**kface that is this team's offensive coordinator.

I hope to test my thoughts next year with a new coordinator.

[HairOnFire]

I look at this differently than you do, I suppose, but find it awfully premature to dissect what Gresham has, and has not, gotten done this year given the f**kface that is this team's offensive coordinator.

Well, let's be clear. I haven't called or implied that Gresham is a bust. But by the same token I will ask aloud...exactly what, if anything, has Gresham proven this season? Aren't we all still waiting for the things we hoped to get when he was drafted?

And taking things a step further, wasn't the Bengals inability to properly use any TE prospect something we debated ad nauseum before Gresham was selected? Didn't we practically exhaust ourselves debating the value of this team using a 1st round pick on any TE prospect? And weren't we almost evenly split on whether Gresham of Gronkowski would be the better player?

I hope to test my thoughts next year with a new coordinator.

Absolutely.

[membengal]

I don't remember the Gronkowski v. Gresham debates, but I do know that Brat is singularly unable to maximize even a decent TE.

[HoosierCat]

I don't remember the Gronkowski v. Gresham debates, but I do know that Brat is singularly unable to maximize even a decent TE.

The debate mostly had to do with whether the Bengals should take a safety (specifically Taylor Mays) in the first and then wait to take a TE (Gronk or Hernanadez, whoever was left) in the second, or go ahead and take Gresham in the first. Given the way things have worked out -- Mays demoted to second string in SF, Gresham doing pretty well all things considered, and second-rounder Dunlap looking like a steal -- I would say that from a draft perspective I am completely happy with the choice they made.

[HairOnFire]

I don't remember the Gronkowski v. Gresham debates, but I do know that Brat is singularly unable to maximize even a decent TE.

Well, it's almost pointless to ask the question again, but when has that ever stopped me?

Point blank, why select a TE in the 1st round if THIS is how he's going to be used? And again, how Gresham has been used by the Bengals isn't a total suprise, is it? We actually debated it, acknowledged the idea he might be misused, and then convinced ourselves he was so good it wouldn't happen.

Yet it has.

As for Gronkowski, we debated that too and I remain convinced he's flat out better than Gresham, and would have fit this teams running identity far better. And as a receiver he's just as good as Gresham. Plus, the fact that his draft stock fell to the 2nd round doesn't make him an inferior player, just a better bargain.

[BengalPimp]

no one on this team deserved it.

Agreed.

Dunlap and Gresham might make an All-Rookie team.

IMHO Dunlap deserves to without question, but Gresham doesn't. In fact, it can be argued that Gresham has been no better than the 4th or 5th best rookie TE.

He and Shipley are among the rookie leaders in receptions but his fumble in Indy and a few dunder-headed penalties hurt this team much like Whit did when things were still meaningful.

All rookies make mistakes. That's what they do. But even if the mistakes are overlooked I have to reluctantly admit that I'm underwhelmed by Greshams production numbers. Granted, his total catches stand out but his yardage totals are modest. In fact, Gresham's average gain per catch is pathetic, and he hasn't come close to being the red zone threat most expected. And not only has he been outproduced by two Patriot rookies who share snaps, Gronkowski and Hernandez, but his numbers are only marginally better, and sometimes worse, than several other rookie TE's who have played far less. Those include the Chief's Tony Moeaki, the Saint's Jimmy Graham, and the Ram's Michael Hoonomoonapunafanoonah....whose last name I never bother spelling correctly.

And then there's blocking to consider. Gresham has been as advertised...which translates to mostly hit or miss. Meanwhile, Gronkowski already ranks amongst the best blocking TE's in the NFL and with the exception of total catches his recieving numbers are far superior, including averaging more than 3 yards more per catch. More than twice as many TD's as well. And again, he's managed that while sharing the ball with another rookie TE with better numbers than Gresham.

Add it all up and I'm guessing Gresham would finish no higher than 4th best in the AFC for rookie TE honors.

Sorry man, but the fact that Gresham put up the numbers he has is a testament to how truly talented he is. You have to consider that Bratkowski has NEVER been known for properly utilizing the TE, also you comment on his Yards per reception? How often do you see the Bengals actually release Gresham? They don't! They keep him in to block, at least initially then release on a short route. They NEVER run any deeper patterns for him. Other teams do that for the TE from time to time. As for the Pats 2 rookie TE's....NO WAY are they more talented or better players than Gresham, They just have TOM BRADY throwing them the ball, and a much better coaching staff to properly utilize them!

You know that.

Screw what they did as rookies....Gresham will be the best from next season on....I have no doubt of that, and if the Bengals get a decent O-Coordinator, you might be looking at near Gates like numbers.

[HairOnFire]

Screw what they did as rookies....Gresham will be the best from next season on....I have no doubt of that

So like most threads this one boils down to wait until next year when things will be different. Well fine, but what choice do I have but wait?

...and if the Bengals get a decent O-Coordinator, you might be looking at near Gates like numbers.

And if they don't change coordinators what should I expect? More of the same? Or perhaps a better version of Martellus Bennett, the young Cowboy TE Bratkowski coveted before drafting Gresham?

[BengalPimp]

Screw what they did as rookies....Gresham will be the best from next season on....I have no doubt of that

So like most threads this one boils down to wait until next year when things will be different. Well fine, but what choice do I have but wait?

The best that I honestly was hoping for from Gresham this year was to get on the field, get some experience, and put up decent numbers while showing his knee is fine. IMO he's done all that. Next year things will come a lot easier to him regardless of the O-Coordinator, but a good one will definitely help. Keep in mind they didn't draft Gresham for this year they drafted him to be their TE for the next 10. I like the progress he's made as the year has gone on. His blocking has improved and should continue to do so, and since Week 11 against Buffalo he has been averaging 14.5 YPC. FWIW.

[BengalPimp]

...and if the Bengals get a decent O-Coordinator, you might be looking at near Gates like numbers.

And if they don't change coordinators what should I expect? More of the same? Or perhaps a better version of Martellus Bennett, the young Cowboy TE Bratkowski coveted before drafting Gresham?

You should expect that being in his 2nd year, he is more familiar with not only the playbook and speed of the game, but also the defensive formations other NFL teams line up in and being able to pick out where the open spots will be. That should equal improvement regardless of the Coordinator (but again, a good one will help) and you can't question this kid's toughness and desire to be great....Marvin & Reggie Kelly have both stated how hard we works to try and be the best. This year he will BENEFIT GREATLY from the OTA's and mini camps just as long as there is no work stoppage.

[membengal]

Hair, if they don't change coordinators, you and I need to find a different team. And I would hate to have this team pass up a talent like Gresham because they employ a mental defective at o-coordiator.

I have to hope that Brat too, shall, in time pass from his position with the Mike Browns, and that that time is now.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The reason Gresham's YpC are so pathetic is because of the role Bratkowski has him in. Let's try our luck with him in another offense next yr

You mean Bratkowski's 8th Annual 'New and Improved' Offense?

I hope I'm kidding.

[HairOnFire]

The best that I honestly was hoping for from Gresham this year was to get on the field, get some experience, and put up decent numbers while showing his knee is fine. IMO he's done all that. Next year things will come a lot easier to him regardless of the O-Coordinator, but a good one will definitely help. Keep in mind they didn't draft Gresham for this year they drafted him to be their TE for the next 10. I like the progress he's made as the year has gone on. His blocking has improved and should continue to do so, and since Week 11 against Buffalo he has been averaging 14.5 YPC. FWIW.

I hear ya', Pimp. I really do. But you have to admit that everything you said in the above post, and the one that followed, point to a player who wasn't as good as advertised. Granted, the vast potential Gresham has still remains and all of us hope the breakthrough comes soon, be it against Baltimore this week or next year at the very latest. But no matter how we put it, no matter who we blame, the fact remains that we were all hoping for more bang. But we were promised a player who would transform the way the Bengals used their TE's and it didn't happen. In fact, it never came close despite the heavy attention paid and opportunities given.

As for next season, it can't get here soon enough for more reasons than I can count.

Onward and upward.

Eyes front. Ears back.

Stiff upper lip.

Bloody hell.

[membengal]

Hair, I find it hard as hell to blame Gresham for "failure to transform the TE position". It may be that he wasn't equal to it, or it is just as, if not more likely, that Brat is a failure at his job and Kellen Winslow Sr. in his prime would be wasted under Brat. Got me. But for my part, I think Gerhsam was as productive as I could have hoped given how Brat runs an offense. And, no, I still would have picked him. At some point, Brat has to move on, right? God, I hope so anyway.

The same staff that mothballed Simpson for years, that refused to put Dunlap on the field, etc. etc. etc., well, I can't really can't draw any conclusions on what Gresham is or isn't at this point in time.

[Sea Ray]

I can't say I am underwhelmed with Gresham unless I can envision him doing better in this offense. So my question is, what more do you want Gresham to do under a Bratkowski directed O? I thought he caught just about everything thrown at him and he ran hard once he got the ball. In fact more than anything else, for the first time since the days of Rodney Holman and ML Harris, when I saw a pass intended for our TE, I expected him to catch it. Since then I've had visions of Tony McGee to Dan Coats bobbling the ball. The only area I see any room for criticism is with his blocking. The comparisons to NE are ludicrous. In addition to Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, the OL difference means an extra second or two for the WR to get downfield. What kind of numbers do you think Wes Welker would put up for this Bratkowski led offense?

[HairOnFire]

It occurs to me that when everyones responses each say exactly the same things two things are possible. First, Gresham's production and play was held back by Bratkowski even more than I believed. Or second, in a horrific season for all Bengal fans Gresham managed to do enough to retain his lofty status as a sacred cow.

I won't provoke anyone further by saying which one I believe to be closer to the truth.

[membengal]

For my part, Hair, I was NOT on the Gresham must be the pick bandwagon at any point last off-season, and have never been a TE as #1 pick zealot. My observations, for my part anyway, are more about what I saw on the field this year and from our f**kawful coaching staff.

Fwiw, I always wondered if Coffman got a short shrift from ML et al, and watching yesterday's game as he produced, it came to my mind again. And here's the annoying thing...if so...then perhaps Gresham wouldn't have been quite the "need" that many thought.

[ArmyBengal]

Here's my thing when thinking of Gresham and last years draft.

Most people either were looking for DE, OLB, or OL help. In mock drafts and conversations you will find the pimping of players such as Kindle, Pierre-Paul, Dunlap, Iupati, Pouncey, and even Mays. Outside of the Gresham threads, where most thought it was simply going to happen, as opposed to it needing to happen, most wanted something else in the first.

There were however MANY calls for the position to be addressed later on with the likes of Gronkowski, Pitta, Hernandez and such.

In looking back we not only got what most still feel was the best TE prospect in the draft, but we got Dunlap and Atkins for our front 4. While retrospect is always 20/20, I find it hard to make last years draft the thing to complain about. Most of the players being pimped hard, Iupati (I loved that guy) and Pouncey, were gone before we picked. Dez Bryant was there, but obviously that wasn't the direction the coaching staff wanted to go.

I simply think there is MUCH of this season's failure that lays at the feet of the coaching staff in regards to the scheme and the way in which the young guys were used. Well, in the Bengals line of thought, the way the young guys WEREN'T used. On a side note, here's to hoping Pouncey's little bro finds a way to fall to the second for us.

You want pro bowlers on this team ?? Then the coaches should have found a way to get Dunlap snaps early and often.

[Sea Ray]

Dez Bryant was there, but obviously that wasn't the direction the coaching staff wanted to go.

I simply think there is MUCH of this season's failure that lays at the feet of the coaching staff in regards to the scheme and the way in which the young guys were used. Well, in the Bengals line of thought, the way the young guys WEREN'T used. On a side note, here's to hoping Pouncey's little bro finds a way to fall to the second for us.

You want pro bowlers on this team ?? Then the coaches should have found a way to get Dunlap snaps early and often.

Yep and if Dez was picked Simpson would be gone. I think last year's draft was the best in recent memory thus I agree with you in that we ought not expend much time complaining about it given the other issues going on with this team

[HairOnFire]

There were however MANY calls for the position to be addressed later on with the likes of Gronkowski, Pitta, Hernandez and such.

Exactly. And regardless of which prospect we may have wanted most the first question that needed to be addressed was whether any 1st round TE was the way to go...especially when the Bengals longstanding history of downplaying the TE position was considered. So again, if we all acknowledge our frustration over the way Gresham has been kept under wraps, why are we suprised?

In looking back we not only got what most still feel was the best TE prospect in the draft, but we got Dunlap and Atkins for our front 4. While retrospect is always 20/20, I find it hard to make last years draft the thing to complain about.

Well, let me remind you and others that I didn't start out complaining about the pick, and I still haven't blasted Gresham. Rather, I voiced my opinion that Gresham doesn't deserve a sniff of rookie honors when compared to his competition at the TE position. And that's true because of two reasons. First, Gronkowski lapped the field. Second, and more directly, any "transformation" of the Bengals TE position is yet to come. Any breakout has been deferred until next season. And while we all blame his coaches for the failure I'm more than willing to put more blame upon Gresham than all of you seem willing to do. I didn't see the precise route running I wanted to see. I didn't see the red zone threat I expected. And I saw more dropped passes than I would expect from the top ranked player at his position. In short, a player who was rougher around the edges and less polished than promised. A player who seemed incapable of doing many of the things expected precisely because he wasn't ready. A player who desperately needs to improve in all phases this offseason.

Just saying.

[kingwilly]

Dez Bryant was there, but obviously that wasn't the direction the coaching staff wanted to go.

I simply think there is MUCH of this season's failure that lays at the feet of the coaching staff in regards to the scheme and the way in which the young guys were used. Well, in the Bengals line of thought, the way the young guys WEREN'T used. On a side note, here's to hoping Pouncey's little bro finds a way to fall to the second for us.

You want pro bowlers on this team ?? Then the coaches should have found a way to get Dunlap snaps early and often.

Yep and if Dez was picked Simpson would be gone. I think last year's draft was the best in recent memory thus I agree with you in that we ought not expend much time complaining about it given the other issues going on with this team

I disagree.

The odd man out would have been Quan. Dez returns punts, precisely for which Quan was kept.

So, no, Simpson was not sure to be out had they taken Dez.