The ship is docking in Cincinnati

[HairOnFire]

Your vote in favor of a meaningless fire drill is duly noted.

As is your vote to keep the status quo even after complete and total failure.

In a world where being different and worse is preferred over being the same and better you are a true opinion leader. I don't live in that world, however.

Actually, you live in a world where you can claim things will be better or worse without any proof whatsoever. A world where accountability isn't worth considering unless it costs less and comes with an iron clad guarantee of future success. In other words, you live in a world that doesn't exist.

Winning football games matters, even if it's only the difference of one game in a season. That's my take on it.

Trust me on this one. Nobody is going to paint your words on the walls of a weightroom anytime soon.

[Sea Ray]

What in the world does that mean? (Is the bud kicking in?)

Is your supply of oxygen so starved that parts of your tragically normal brain have died? It seems so.

I haven't limited anything, it's the situation that limits it.

You're claiming the decision to hire an interim coach is off the table because it never works, but in reality it has before and will again. In fact, it's worked in the past for this team and this owner, right? So your refusal to even consider that option is far more self-limiting than one that considers all options.

If you want to hire a coach right now you couldn't possibly, for example, hire a currently-employed coach that you might consider that will be let go at the end of the season. That is a built-in limitation to YOUR plan, not mine.

FWIW the guy calling last weeks Bengal game is an unemployed NFL head coach with a Super Bowl championship on his resume. Funnier still, he's not the only head coaching candidate available who can claim that.

Of course waiting until seasons end allows a team to hire from a bigger pool of candidates, but that only serves to underscore what I've already pointed out. That in the end you're still changing coaches, and haven't really accomplished anything other than delaying progress for a few months.

The question is who you hire if you hire an interim coach. So far, you have Ditka and Coslett the second.

Ditka was a joke, as shown by not one, and not two, but three LMAO smilies. And Coslet with a single T was mentioned only as proof of an interim hire working for this team and this owner. Argue that he shouldn't have been given the job long-term if you want because that's besides the point. And that's true because Coslet actually managed to do what you claim can't be done. Specifically, he turned a loser into a winner immediately just by changing the teams identity.

I don't see any serious candidates suggested by you.

That's because you're still self-limiting the conversation by refusing to consider the option of an interim hire, a fairly common practice in all sports, but one that you claim is off the table because you say so.

I am all for an interim hire but Bengalbythebay has a point. Who? Billick won't do it on an interim basis. I think interim has to be someone on the staff like Zimmer or Alexander. Is that who you want? I'd settle for firing Brat for now and promoting Zampese

[HairOnFire]

I think interim has to be someone on the staff like Zimmer or Alexander. Is that who you want?

I'd consider Zimmer or Anderson first choices. Zimmer to see what he'd be like if given the job of HC long-term, and Anderson just to get me through 11 games.

Billick won't do it on an interim basis.

Different coach...different circumstances. Suffice to say I wouldn't rule him out if he'd agree to work for Mike Brown. In fact, I'd say in some ways he's uniquely qualified for the job(s).

I'd settle for firing Brat for now and promoting Zampese

Actually, you'll settle for nothing. And so will I.

[Sea Ray]

Billick won't do it on an interim basis.

Different coach...different circumstances. Suffice to say I wouldn't rule him out if he'd agree to work for Mike Brown. In fact, I'd say in some ways he's uniquely qualified for the job(s).

I think Billick is on a short list of possible replacements when MB is ready to talk multiyear contracts

[James_Brooks21]

Am I missing where people are commenting on the Adam Schein article on FoxSports? I'm loving the article.

/>http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Cincinnati-Bengals-Carson-Palmer-Tampa-Bay-Buccaneers-101110

[HairOnFire]

Sorry James, but that's soft stuff compared to this one.

Palmer somehow gets free pass, and it's way off target

Expert By Mike Freeman

CBSSports.com National Columnist

Oct. 13, 2010

It only takes a few series of watching Carson Palmer to see that something is very wrong.

His throwing motion, at times, is drastically off. Palmer's passes are sometimes lazy. He tosses medicine balls that will one day lead to a receiver having a liver lacerated. His decision-making is awful. His footwork is worse. Palmer has never been mobile, but he now possesses the escape potential of a Guantanamo Bay detainee.

Palmer makes Drew Bledsoe look like Mike Vick.

At times, he has the mechanics of Vince Young. He's Vince Palmer.

Actually, Young is playing better than Vince Palmer.

Jay Cutler is playing better. So is Ryan Fitzpatrick. So is David Garrard.

Palmer's 78.3 passer rating barely trumps Jason Campbell (76.2), Matt Cassel (74), Bruce Gradkowski (71.1) and Alex Smith (71.6).

Carson Palmer continues to play like Carson Daly, and yet the outrage continues to be mostly muted. It's been this way for years with Palmer, and so goes one of the greatest free passes, in the NFL and the media, any quarterback has ever received.

This past week Palmer tossed three interceptions. Two were his fault. Damn. Now I'm making excuses for him.

It's built into us media types. It's the Palmer Media Reflex Action (PMRA), a proven scientific disease. Palmer plays like dog poop and we blame the dog.

Continued at:

/>http://www.cbssports...-way-off-target

[BengalByTheBay]

I think interim has to be someone on the staff like Zimmer or Alexander. Is that who you want?

I'd consider Zimmer or Anderson first choices. Zimmer to see what he'd be like if given the job of HC long-term, and Anderson just to get me through 11 games.

So, after pages of rant it comes down to this - you'd be okay hiring Zimmer maybe to stay or Alexander definitely to be done at season's end. Wow. That's your grand solution. IMO Zimmer is the only option and, rather than blast him in there now to oversee what you advise will be a guaranteed losing season, they should negotiate a long-term contract with him if that's who they want. On the other hand, if it's not certain who they want (and it sounds like you're not even willing to say so unequivocally) there's no downside to considering a wider pool of candidates when the dust clears on this season. I'll say it again, you want to fire the whole staff to send a message, not to improve the team. An emotional decision like that limits the future options and is a bad idea. And, much as you want to pretend that an interim coach is going to have a better record the rest of this year, you have yet to say why that's likely.

[Sea Ray]

To be fair, Hair didn't mention Alexander at all. He mentioned RBs coach Jim Anderson.

Seeing as Alexander does have the title of Asst Head Coach, I think he'll be who we're stuck with in the event of a Marvin mid season firing

[HairOnFire]

I think interim has to be someone on the staff like Zimmer or Alexander. Is that who you want?

I'd consider Zimmer or Anderson first choices. Zimmer to see what he'd be like if given the job of HC long-term, and Anderson just to get me through 11 games.

So, after pages of rant it comes down to this - you'd be okay hiring Zimmer maybe to stay or Alexander definitely to be done at season's end. Wow. That's your grand solution.

No, that's your grand misconstruction, and it's based in part on a name I never mentioned. And how are we going to debate when you can't even get the names right?

IMO Zimmer is the only option....

So once again you impose more limitations than I would and then swiftly conclude that waiting would provide more options. Well how could it not under those types of self imposed limitations? In truth, by refusing to consider an interim hire you self-limit while I do not. And by refusing to consider anyone but Zimmer you further self-limit while I do not. And I remind, you're claiming that waiting until the end of the season would result in more options, which isn't even remotely true as long as ownership refuses to commit to the promotion beyond this season. Which is exactly what this teams ownership did previously.

On the other hand, if it's not certain who they want (and it sounds like you're not even willing to say so unequivocally) there's no downside to considering a wider pool of candidates when the dust clears on this season.

Let's try a hypothetical exercise. Let's say Jim Anderson is the interim hire. Zimmer stays in his role as DC. So why couldn't the owner begin a long term coaching search immediately and openly? And how is the end-of-season pool of candidates any wider if the interim coach isn't guaranteed the position beyond this season, as was done previously?

I'll say it again, you want to fire the whole staff to send a message, not to improve the team.

How does not sending a message improve the team? How does a further comittment to Bratball improve the team? How does further cementing Marvin's status as lame duch coach improve the team? And just for giggles, who says firing somebody won't help the team in the first place? Have you even bothered considering Coslet's record as an interim head coach?

And, much as you want to pretend that an interim coach is going to have a better record the rest of this year, you have yet to say why that's likely.

8-1

[Stripes]

Regardless of a fanbase utterly empty of optimism (myself included), the Bengals would be rather silly IMO to put the remainder of the season at such huge risk by making monumental changes right now. They're 2-3, not 2-8. The playoffs aren't such a remote possibility that we can justify scrapping it all quite yet.

[gregstephens]

Regardless of a fanbase utterly empty of optimism (myself included), the Bengals would be rather silly IMO to put the remainder of the season at such huge risk by making monumental changes right now. They're 2-3, not 2-8. The playoffs aren't such a remote possibility that we can justify scrapping it all quite yet.

Fine...I'll check back in with you in six games, which I will predict a 1-5 run, putting us at 3-8. Good enough to declare the sky officially fallen?

I should think so.

[BengalByTheBay]

I think interim has to be someone on the staff like Zimmer or Alexander. Is that who you want?

I'd consider Zimmer or Anderson first choices. Zimmer to see what he'd be like if given the job of HC long-term, and Anderson just to get me through 11 games.

So, after pages of rant it comes down to this - you'd be okay hiring Zimmer maybe to stay or Alexander definitely to be done at season's end. Wow. That's your grand solution.

No, that's your grand misconstruction, and it's based in part on a name I never mentioned. And how are we going to debate when you can't even get the names right?

I have no choice but to construct since you won't even say who you'd hire. And if your huge "gotcha" point is that I picked up Alexander from Ray's post when you said Anderson, you got me. Big deal, I don't see either of them coaching this team to a better record than Marvin Lewis. If you do that's fine and a legitimate disagreement. I didn't pay enough attention to either name, however, because there's no difference in my opinion - neither is a head coach. Finally, I'm not saying I would never consider it, I'm saying I don't see it helping. If I had to make the call right now, I wouldn't hire an interim coach. That's just my opinion. I think Lewis is a better head coach than Alexander or Anderson or any other coach on this team with the possible exception of Zimmer. Is that so crazy?

[HairOnFire]

I have no choice but to construct since you won't even say who you'd hire.

I've named my top two choices in this thread and even provided a third choice in another thread. That seems like plenty to me.

And if your huge "gotcha" point is that I picked up Alexander from Ray's post when you said Anderson, you got me. Big deal....

Well, it's only a big deal in the sense that I specifically didn't mention Alexander because I don't think he's qualified. As a result I think your time would be better spent responding to the things I'm actually saying.

....I don't see either of them coaching this team to a better record than Marvin Lewis.

Marvin Lewis just failed utterly and completely due to preventable factors yet your entire rationale for keeping him is based upon retaining the status quo?

I didn't pay enough attention to either name, however, because there's no difference in my opinion - neither is a head coach.

Marvin Lewis wasn't an NFL head coach until this team made him one, right? And immediately after making him a head coach this team made Jim Anderson responsible for helping Marvin manage games, call timeouts, etc.

Again, I'd consider Zimmer just to get a glimpse of what he'd be like as a head coach if given the job long-term. And I'd consider Anderson because I respect him and have no doubts about his ability to guide the team through the final 11 games with competence.

Finally, I'm not saying I would never consider it, I'm saying I don't see it helping.

Actually, everything you've said, and the limitations you impose upon yourself, are all based upon flatly rejecting the idea.

That's just my opinion. I think Lewis is a better head coach than Alexander or Anderson or any other coach on this team with the possible exception of Zimmer. Is that so crazy?

I'd say it's no crazier than my suggestion Lewis be fired. Because like you seem to be still, I've always been a Marvin backer, and my faith in him didn't begin to crack until the Carolina game, didn't begin to crumble until the Cleveland game, and didn't collapse completely until the Tampa game. But I admit it's gone now, and I'm forced to wonder why that lack of faith now seems so crazy to you?

[BengalByTheBay]

Finally, I'm not saying I would never consider it, I'm saying I don't see it helping.

Actually, everything you've said, and the limitations you impose upon yourself, are all based upon flatly rejecting the idea.

False. I offered my opinion - just like you. I didn't flatly reject anything. I said what I would do. For all your championing of free expression of opinions, I find that only those that agree with yours tend to qualify as an opinion to you. Everything else is ignorant failure to "see what's in front of your face." In short, you're the one continuing to "flatly reject" any other view. And the beauty is you never have to face the embarrassment of being proven wrong, because what you advocate is never going to be done.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Regardless of a fanbase utterly empty of optimism (myself included), the Bengals would be rather silly IMO to put the remainder of the season at such huge risk by making monumental changes right now. They're 2-3, not 2-8. The playoffs aren't such a remote possibility that we can justify scrapping it all quite yet.

If I'm playing Devils's Advocate, I might contend that's the perfect time. The ship's headed in the wrong direction but isn't too far off course. Fix it now and there's a chance to get somewhere.

Now whether it would work is another story...

[ct_bengal]

most of you guys need to relax, i hate losing as much as the next guy, but they did beat the ravens who are probably the hottest team in the nfl. so they have it when they want to. 3 loses is far from over. its ok to be pissed but its been dam near a week time to move on...this teams numbers are better than their play, just dont turn it over. thats it. i think it was the giants who started off 2-3 as well and won the super bowl 3 years ago....

[HairOnFire]

False. I offered my opinion - just like you. I didn't flatly reject anything.

Rubbish. At the very first mention of the idea Lewis should be fired, prior to the loss at home to Tampa, you mocking called the idea melodramatic. You further claimed a loss would have no impact on whether Lewis would return at seasons end.(Post 42) Just a few days and a crushing loss to Tampa later you then admitted Lewis would no longer be returning at years end, but called talk of him being fired "overreaction". (Post52) Then when talk turned to the idea of an interim coach you once again demonstrated your refusal to even consider any idea based upon firing Lewis by writing the following.

"A lame duck coach should be allowed to finish the season if the alternative - hiring or elevating an "interim" coach - is worse. I would, and will, argue that the interim coach path is nearly always a loser."

That's flat rejection. Or if you prefer, a further demonstration of a steadfast refusal to consider alternatives. And of course it didn't end there because you quickly moved on to the next step and promptly deemed unqualified any of the coaches who might serve as interim coach. Furthermore, you gave no credence to the fact that this teams owner has hired an interim coach before and was promptly rewarded with an 8-1 stretch drive that just fell short. Which if I'm not mistaken is exactly what you're claiming is still possible, but only if the status quo is undisturbed.

So in closing, let's recap the recap with a bottom line.

Bottom Line: Every step of the way you've flatly rejected not only the ideas being considered, but also rejected the very suggestion that anyone should even be talking about this stuff.

[Stripes]

Regardless of a fanbase utterly empty of optimism (myself included), the Bengals would be rather silly IMO to put the remainder of the season at such huge risk by making monumental changes right now. They're 2-3, not 2-8. The playoffs aren't such a remote possibility that we can justify scrapping it all quite yet.

Fine...I'll check back in with you in six games, which I will predict a 1-5 run, putting us at 3-8. Good enough to declare the sky officially fallen?

I should think so.

Well sure, 3-8 would suck ass. Let's fire everyone when we're 3-8.

[Stripes]

Regardless of a fanbase utterly empty of optimism (myself included), the Bengals would be rather silly IMO to put the remainder of the season at such huge risk by making monumental changes right now. They're 2-3, not 2-8. The playoffs aren't such a remote possibility that we can justify scrapping it all quite yet.

If I'm playing Devils's Advocate, I might contend that's the perfect time. The ship's headed in the wrong direction but isn't too far off course. Fix it now and there's a chance to get somewhere.

Now whether it would work is another story...

I suppose we're left to differing philosophy in that case. Even with a coaching staff struggling to do anything right, I think the Bengals have a better chance of playing better in a system they already know so well than they would under the duress of immediate overhaul. Assuming the losing continues, I won't object at all to changes after the fact.

[HairOnFire]

If I'm playing Devils's Advocate, I might contend that's the perfect time. The ship's headed in the wrong direction but isn't too far off course. Fix it now and there's a chance to get somewhere.

Now whether it would work is another story...

Previously, the Bengals finished 8-1 under an interim coach but failed to make the playoffs precisely because Mike Brown waited too long to fire. And there's the rub because if you wait until it's too late even a spectacular turnaround won't give you the desired results. Furthermore, the bye week would give the team more time to adapt to the changes that doesn't exist under any other circumstances.

Just saying.

[HairOnFire]

Well sure, 3-8 would suck ass. Let's fire everyone when we're 3-8.

At that point...why bother?

[BengalByTheBay]

False. I offered my opinion - just like you. I didn't flatly reject anything.

Rubbish. At the very first mention of the idea Lewis should be fired, prior to the loss at home to Tampa, you mocking called the idea melodramatic. You further claimed a loss would have no impact on whether Lewis would return at seasons end.(Post 42) Just a few days and a crushing loss to Tampa later you then admitted Lewis would no longer be returning at years end, but called talk of him being fired "overreaction". (Post52)

Yes, prior to the Tampa loss I argued that the outcome of the game would not impact how/when the HC decision would be made. I'm pretty sure that's still the case, your ravings aside. Has the coach been fired? No, so that loss didn't - as I predicted (not taking any credit here because it was an obvious) - impact the HC situation. My point was, and remains, that Lewis would probably not be extended at the end of the season unless - and this has been true since before any games were played this season - it turned out to be a great season. It wasn't a great season before the TB loss, so that one game isn't going to make any more of an impact (and I would argue probably less) than the Cleveland loss the week before. As I said then, Mike didn't have to make the decision about Marvin's contract then, so he didn't. He doesn't have to make the decision now, and he's not. No matter how much you want to start firing people, it doesn't change reality.

I mocked you as melodramatic in response to your claim that one loss to TB would have a "drastic and lasting impact" or something similar to that. I thought they would win, but certainly considered they could lose. The reason I thought - and still think - you were a little overboard is that's it's still fairly early in the season to predict doom. You don't think so and neither does what appears to be a majority here, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you. If they won and were at 3-2 instead of 2-3, I wouldn't be predicting playoffs either and if somebody did I'd say they were being....melodramatic.

[BengalByTheBay]

And of course it didn't end there because you quickly moved on to the next step and promptly deemed unqualified any of the coaches who might serve as interim coach.

Where? Because I dismiss Anderson and Alexander? Okay, guilty as charged. I don't think that improves anything. If you're talking about Zimmer, as I said before, I would consider that. As much as I dislike the interim coach idea, if it's somebody who might actually stay around, I think it may have some merit. Again, however, unless you're sold on Zimmer as the HC on a long term basis, I don't like it.

[HairOnFire]

Yes, prior to the Tampa loss I argued that the outcome of the game would not impact how/when the HC decision would be made. I'm pretty sure that's still the case, your ravings aside.

Actually, you don't even believe your own ravings. Because you admit that prior to the Tampa loss you claimed the results from that game would have no impact on whether Marvin came or went. Then immediately after the game you changed your stance to he's gone now, but only after the season ends.

As I said then, Mike didn't have to make the decision about Marvin's contract then, so he didn't. He doesn't have to make the decision now, and he's not. No matter how much you want to start firing people, it doesn't change reality.

But our reality changes by the week and by the loss, as your own shifting stance proves.

I thought they would win, but certainly considered they could lose. The reason I thought - and still think - you were a little overboard is that's it's still fairly early in the season to predict doom.

Yeah, I get that. You think all of this talk is a bit premature. A tad early. But there's plenty of reason to believe that in a few weeks or so you're going to be standing right where others are already. So why not roll the idea around for awhile just to get used to it?

You don't think so and neither does what appears to be a majority here, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

I don't mind disagreement. In fact, I welcome it. But whether you like it or not the debate is going to continue precisely because I'm not in the minority on this one. Instead, that's where you find yourself.

[BengalByTheBay]

I thought they would win, but certainly considered they could lose. The reason I thought - and still think - you were a little overboard is that's it's still fairly early in the season to predict doom.

Yeah, I get that. You think all of this talk is a bit premature. A tad early. But there's plenty of reason to believe that in a few weeks or so you're going to be standing right where others are already. So why not roll the idea around for awhile just to get used to it?

You don't think so and neither does what appears to be a majority here, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

I don't mind disagreement. In fact, I welcome it. But whether you like it or not the debate is going to continue precisely because I'm not in the minority on this one. Instead, that's where you find yourself.

I'm comfortable being in the minority on this one. Hell, my boy Dimster is with me...right? Dimster....Dim....