Local kid trying to make the team

[redsbengalsbucks]

Again, not knowing anything about Shipley - can he fill in production for the pass-catching RB we don't have, like Welker does? To me, that's what would get Shipley on the field.

I really liked Leonard and Scott's ability to change the way a defense had to play when they were inserted in the lineup. Just because Brat didnt use the RB or TE pass plays much last season, does not mean that there arent two perfectly good pass catching RB options already on the team. I wish Palmer would dump the ball off to the RB option more often, in many circumstances. Many times last year I was screaming to dump it off to a wide open RB for a short gain when Palmer would heave it down field into double/triple coverage (high) to a WR and pray it was caught. Hopefully that is part of the game that will be worked on in camp.

[derekshank]

But getting past that for a moment, reading how many supporters of the pick actually agree with me that it was indeed a luxury pick that won't result in much production, well....I'm starting to get mthat angry Hulk feeling again. And that's because most of you seem to agree with me each step of the way.

But you're confusing what it is that we're agreeing about. I agree that it was a luxury pick, but I don't agree that the potential lack of individual stats indicates that he doesn't fill an important role. His presence combined with Gresham's will keep safeties honest in the middle of the field, and also keep teams from putting 8 in the box. While his individual numbers might not be staggering, the role he plays will help the offense have fewer stalled drives, resulting in increased TOP and fewer redzone FGs. Something the defense will appreciate.

On the luxury topic... when you look at what was available at good value in the 3rd round, the most viable options were WR, TE, DE, and LB. Every single one of those positions would be considered a "luxury" pick at that point... and in my mind Shipley represents the best option among them to actually improve the team.

The only real complaint here is that the Bengals didn't reach for a Safety. And if we're going to start complaining that the Bengals don't reach for picks anymore, maybe we should revisit the 90's.

So a different offensive weapon is to be deployed for every conceivable situation, yet I'm not supposed to expect any significant

gain in overall production at the position?

I've already answered this question. I think that Shipley will help the offense score more points and have longer sustained drives. I'm not Hoosier, so I get bored with arguing in circles. You disagree with me. We can leave it at that.

But I don't view this all that different than how a lot of NFL teams fill out RBs on the roster. Few teams have one RB to carry the load. Many have a power back, a scat back, and several also have a 3rd down specialist. Different situations call for different skills sets. The Bengals lacked a WR with Shipley's skill set, so I'm optimistic about how that will improve the offense's production.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I'm not Hoosier, so I get bored with arguing in circles.

Hey babyshanks, we depend on that kind of stuff to keep traffic up here!

[derekshank]

I'm not Hoosier, so I get bored with arguing in circles.

Hey babyshanks, we depend on that kind of stuff to keep traffic up here!

Agreed. I'm just not the man for the job.

I get weary of typing the same arguments repeatedly.

Yet, here I am. Persisting.

I'm guessing it was more than one thing, but Marvin specifically mentioned the need for more "chunk plays". His words. And Brat repeatedly whined about the loss of Chris Henry and his ability to stretch the field...sadly, without actually producing.

Well, you said it yourself. The mere presence of a deep threat isn't the problem, or else Chris Henry would have been putting up stats, right?

And if the probability that Shipley also won't put up eye-popping stats is what upsets you, how would a deep threat in the mold of Chris Henry be any different?

Regarding "chunk plays" didn't the Bengals address that need by adding Antonio Bryant? Even though he was injured in '09 and had a s**tty QB, 14 of his 39 catches were for 20+ yards. And isn't Chad primarily known for being a dangerous deep threat WR? But if we've learned nothing else in the last 3 years, it's that Chad simply can't beat the Cover-2.

So, how does one get teams to play less Cover-2 and more man coverage? The answer is with players in the mold of Gresham and Shipley.

[HairOnFire]

I agree that it was a luxury pick, but I don't agree that the potential lack of individual stats indicates that he doesn't fill an important role.

But it's still a part-time role, isn't it? And taking that description even further, it's a luxury pick used on a part-time role that you admit won't get enough opportunity to produce more than modest numbers.

On the luxury topic... when you look at what was available at good value in the 3rd round, the most viable options were WR, TE, DE, and LB. Every single one of those positions would be considered a "luxury" pick at that point....

Well, the TE and DE positions would have been considered a luxury only because the Bengals had already drafted players at those positions. Which neatly brings us back to the question of if a 1st round TE was really a prudent move in a deep TE draft. Furthermore, the Bengals attempts to move up in the 2nd round to select a S is ample proof of the teams need and desire for an upgrade, as well as their ultimate failure to get one.

The only real complaint here is that the Bengals didn't reach for a Safety. And if we're going to start complaining that the Bengals don't reach for picks anymore, maybe we should revisit the 90's.

So because the Bengals tried to upgrade the position very early in the draft, but were unable to, any safety they would have picked later would have automatically been considered a reach?

I'm not Hoosier, so I get bored with arguing in circles.

Fair enough, but I think it's obvious the only reason Hoosier argues in circles is simply due to his willingness to defend the endless cycle of waste with spin, the only tool he has left.

You disagree with me. We can leave it at that.

Sure.

Again, I'm still trying to make peace with the pick, and at some point I'm sure I will. Because at some point I'll simply wear down and accept what has been done based upon it's own merits. The day will come when I'll see Shipley not as another luxury pick or as a wasted opportunity to do something else at other positions.

Instead, I'll look at Shipley and see a weapon of convenience.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not Hoosier, so I get bored with arguing in circles.

Hey babyshanks, we depend on that kind of stuff to keep traffic up here!

Agreed. I'm just not the man for the job.

I get weary of typing the same arguments repeatedly.

Yet, here I am. Persisting.

I admit it's an impressive display of stamina, but it pales in comparison to my own Bastard Sons of Paul Brown rant, which I find myself repeating year after year after year after year after year. And the very reason I find myself repeating the rant not because I like it, but because the Bengals have gotten almost nothing in return from all of their previous efforts.

So let's focus on what we both agree on rather than the things we don't.

Patience has it's limits. Build something.

[Sea Ray]

Well, the TE and DE positions would have been considered a luxury only because the Bengals had already drafted players at those positions. Which neatly brings us back to the question of if a 1st round TE was really a prudent move in a deep TE draft. Furthermore, the Bengals attempts to move up in the 2nd round to select a S is ample proof of the teams need and desire for an upgrade, as well as their ultimate failure to get one.

I sure don't consider our 1st and 2nd rd picks as luxury. Coffman was drafted as a project last year due to his foot injury and the unknown of whether he could ever develop into a decent blocker. My guess is at best they saw him as a passing down TE only.

Gresham was drafted to be three down TE, a guy you could use without giving away the play call. He was the concensus #1 TE in this entire draft and TE was clearly the Bengals weakest position last year.

As for DE, we definitely need pass rushers. That's arguably our 2nd greatest need.

As for duplicating picks of years past, does that make this year's draft poor or is it correcting mistakes of the past? e.g. Simpson, Coffman, Rucker.

Time will tell

[HairOnFire]

Coffman was drafted as a project last year due to his foot injury and the unknown of whether he could ever develop into a decent blocker. My guess is at best they saw him as a passing down TE only.

But all you're doing is switching the luxury tag to the less expensive 3rd round pick used on Coffman, who now sees his role reduced before ever playing a down.

As for duplicating picks of years past, does that make this year's draft poor or is it correcting mistakes of the past?

Watch and learn I guess, but it seems odd that I'm still waiting for someone who actually supported the picks of Shipley to predict he'll produce more than 30 catches. As for Briscoe, I doubt he makes the active roster but if he does I can't see more than a dozen balls thrown his way.

So, does this sound like the stuff of corrected mistakes to you?

[derekshank]

I agree that it was a luxury pick, but I don't agree that the potential lack of individual stats indicates that he doesn't fill an important role.

But it's still a part-time role, isn't it? And taking that description even further, it's a luxury pick used on a part-time role that you admit won't get enough opportunity to produce more than modest numbers.

Yes, but stopping the quote there ignores my point. There were almost no viable options at positions of actual need for the Bengals in the 3rd round. And given what was available, can you find a player at that slot who you believe will contribute more heavily than Shipley?

The only real complaint here is that the Bengals didn't reach for a Safety. And if we're going to start complaining that the Bengals don't reach for picks anymore, maybe we should revisit the 90's.

So because the Bengals tried to upgrade the position very early in the draft, but were unable to, any safety they would have picked later would have automatically been considered a reach?

That's a giant handful of works that you've put into my mouth. I merely stated that of the safeties available at the Shipley pick, they would have been taking a far lesser player... one who would not warrant a 3rd round pick, and thus not really be able to contribute up to his draft status.

I wish they would have gotten Mays as much as you do... but they didn't. Reaching for need in the 3rd round is no way to rectify that. Like it or not, Shipley addresses a position that many felt was the Bengals greatest weakness in '09.

Just because he won't likely be asked to start from day doesn't make him a bad pick. The role he will fill will be a valuable one, and I believe he will be more successful and contribute more than any safety taken in his spot would have been able to.

[HairOnFire]

I agree that it was a luxury pick, but I don't agree that the potential lack of individual stats indicates that he doesn't fill an important role.

But it's still a part-time role, isn't it? And taking that description even further, it's a luxury pick used on a part-time role that you admit won't get enough opportunity to produce more than modest numbers.

Yes, but stopping the quote there ignores my point.

Did you really want me to repeat what you wrote immediately after? The bit about Shipley's presence, couple with Gresham's, being far more important than his actual production?

And given what was available, can you find a player at that slot who you believe will contribute more heavily than Shipley?

Heavily? You've already predicted the combined talents of Caldwell and Shipley won't produce more than 9 receptions more than Caldwell managed on his own last season. Furthermore, the team acknowledges the presence of Shipley jeapordizes the roster spot of Quan Cosby, one of the better punt returners in the NFL and one of the Bengals very best special teams players.

I merely stated that of the safeties available at the Shipley pick, they would have been taking a far lesser player... one who would not warrant a 3rd round pick, and thus not really be able to contribute up to his draft status.

Perhaps, but not getting help at either saftey position after attempting a trade up into the upper reaches of the 2nd round to address that need smacks a little bit of being out of step, especially considering the impressive depth available at the very positions the Bengals targeted earliest.

Like it or not, Shipley addresses a position that many felt was the Bengals greatest weakness in '09.

But by your own admission the Bengals had already made moves that specifically targeted every need, real and imaginary, from the prior year.

Just because he won't likely be asked to start from day doesn't make him a bad pick.

And I'm guessing he'll never earn a starting role here.

Disagree?

[derekshank]

Just because he won't likely be asked to start from day doesn't make him a bad pick.

And I'm guessing he'll never earn a starting role here.

Disagree?

Yes. I do disagree. I wouldn't put money on that, because he's just a rookie, and a 3rd round pick at that. I haven't seen him play in the NFL one bit. But I believe he has plenty of skills necessary to be an NFL starter. He's just not a prototype WR in the mold of Randy Moss. But there have been plenty of very successful NFL WRs who don't meet that description.

Taking role players for specific situations is something the Bengals have done with 3rd round picks for years. Chris Henry, Frostee Rucker, Pat Sims, Michael Johnson. None of these players were drafted with the expectation that they would start, but every single one of them was asked to contribute immediately. Many, if not all of them were drafted with the intent/hope for them to start eventually.

But even if he is a 3rd WR his entire career... I have no real problem with drafting a role player in the 3rd round. Especially when that role player fills a necessary role and represents BPA. I think Shipley can easily be described as both.

[derekshank]

And given what was available, can you find a player at that slot who you believe will contribute more heavily than Shipley?

Heavily? You've already predicted the combined talents of Caldwell and Shipley won't produce more than 9 receptions more than Caldwell managed on his own last season.

True... but you didn't really answer my questions did you? Who would have played a more important role for the Bengals with the 84th pick? Jimmy Graham? Navarro Bowman? Everson Griffen?

And going back to the point I was making at the time of that prediction, Caldwell was relied upon as #2 very often thanks to Coles being a disappointment. Bryant is a big upgrade over Coles, and Gresham/Coffman should be a staggering upgrade over Foschi/Coats.

Given these factors, if Shipley and Caldwell do improve over Caldwell's number while being relied on both as role players, you're talking about a passing offense that is immensely more productive than last year's. I don't want nor expect them to return to the pass happy offense they sported in '05... So I feel like perhaps Cedric Benson benefits the most. Defenses can't overplay the run anymore, or else get picked apart.

More 7+ minute drives... but that end in TDs instead of FGs. Me likey.

I merely stated that of the safeties available at the Shipley pick, they would have been taking a far lesser player... one who would not warrant a 3rd round pick, and thus not really be able to contribute up to his draft status.

Perhaps, but not getting help at either saftey position after attempting a trade up into the upper reaches of the 2nd round to address that need smacks a little bit of being out of step, especially considering the impressive depth available at the very positions the Bengals targeted earliest.

Well, I'm with you that TE shouldn't have been the first pick... but I still feel like Dunlap was a steal in the 2nd round. But that's not the point. The issue is that you didn't like the Shipley pick.

So... name the player they should have taken.

There were safeties that could have come in an contributed with Dunlap's pick. But I'm not seeing one with the 84th pick. If Chad Jones had fallen a few more slots he probably would have been the pick... but the depth you speak of at the position was dramatically lessened with two Safeties taken in the 1st round, three taken in the 2nd round, and three taken before the Bengals selection in the 3rd round.

The depth fell off here with only one safety taken more than 20 slots after the Bengals pick of Shipley, and then not another one until the 4th round.

[HairOnFire]

Just because he won't likely be asked to start from day doesn't make him a bad pick.

And I'm guessing he'll never earn a starting role here.

Disagree?

Yes. I do disagree. I wouldn't put money on that, because he's just a rookie, and a 3rd round pick at that.

So you disagree, but weakly.

Taking role players for specific situations is something the Bengals have done with 3rd round picks for years.

And that's especially true of the 3rd WR role, isn't it? In fact, in the Marvin Lewis era they've burned and churned that role repeatedly using 3rd rounders on Kelly Washington, Chris Henry, Andre Caldwell, and now Jordan Shipley. And almost like clockwork, the Bengals quickly tire of the WR's drafted, and find themselves looking for replacements in just two years.

You can almost set your watch by it.

In fact, if history is any indication of what we should expect you could put Shipley on the bubble for 2012 right now. No waiting required. And the future headline will probably read..."Bengals and Shipley seek seperation, one way or another."

But even if he is a 3rd WR his entire career... I have no real problem with drafting a role player in the 3rd round.

Neither do I. My problems are rooted in the Bengals habit of burning and churning multiple backup offensive skill positions, especially the 3rd WR role and the 3rd down RB position. Worse, because the Bengals attempt to fill each of these roles with a handful of picks here and another handful of pikes later...most of the players selected never actually play at all.

Bottom line? If we were only talking about an example or two.....we wouldn't be talking at all.

[derekshank]

But even if he is a 3rd WR his entire career... I have no real problem with drafting a role player in the 3rd round.

Neither do I. My problems are rooted in the Bengals habit of burning and churning multiple backup offensive skill positions, especially the 3rd WR role and the 3rd down RB position. Worse, because the Bengals attempt to fill each of these roles with a handful of picks here and another handful of pikes later...most of the players selected never actually play at all.

Bottom line? If we were only talking about an example or two.....we wouldn't be talking at all.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, your problem isn't with Shipley at all... merely WR and the Bengals apparent love affair with that position specific to the 3rd round.

Alright. I can dig it. I'm not a fan of the Bengals obsession with WR anymore than you are. I have been more vocal about my disdain for the Briscoe pick than anyone here. But that really has nothing to do with Shipley, as he brings a skill set that the Bengals desperately lacked last season.

As for the 3rd round aspect, I'd say WR would have to be 2nd on the list of complaints. Their history of drafting LBs in the 3rd round has been far more costly. At least with WR they have gotten good production with Chris Henry and Caldwell. Washington was the only real bust.

LBs on the other hand have taken up three 3rd round picks... each of them worthy of the term 'bust' with two being cut, and the other walking away as a free agent without the slightest bit of resistance. Add to the argument 1st round picks in Pollack and Rivers, 2nd round picks in Thurman and Maualuga, last year's 3rd rounder (MJ) taking snaps at LB, and now a 4th rounder in Muckelroy, plus a seemingly endless list of free agents... and you have an argument that the Bengals are far more in love with LBs than they've ever been with WRs.

So, if the complaint is one of the Bengals history, I'd say WR isn't the worst option. If the complaint is specific to Shipley... I'm all ears. But if it's just the position he plays, I'm growing weary of the discontent... simply because I have yet to hear a name the Bengals should have called with the 84th pick. Maybe a LB?

[HairOnFire]

And given what was available, can you find a player at that slot who you believe will contribute more heavily than Shipley?

Heavily? You've already predicted the combined talents of Caldwell and Shipley won't produce more than 9 receptions more than Caldwell managed on his own last season.

True... but you didn't really answer my questions did you? Who would have played a more important role for the Bengals with the 84th pick?

If you want an answer to that question you have to start at the beginning, at #21.....a selection I correctly predicted and grudgingly accept, but never supported.

Well, I'm with you that TE shouldn't have been the first pick...

Common ground.

The issue is that you didn't like the Shipley pick.

Only partially true. More accurately...I don't support the idea of a 1st round pick being used on any TE, especially in a deep TE draft. Furthermore, I don't like 3rd round picks being used on things I already have....even if it represents BPA. In fact, if you simply have to have another WR from a very weak WR draft class why not pick the very best one when you had the chance? Why not draft the guy who can become a starter? Why not draft a potential replacement for Chad rather than finding someone who'll compete with Caldwell? Finally, I don't like how those earlier decisions resulted in the Bengals being unable to find upgrades at the two positions that I felt competed with the TE position for the mantle of greatest need. Specifically, safety and interior OL help.

... but the depth you speak of at the position was dramatically lessened with two Safeties taken in the 1st round, three taken in the 2nd round, and three taken before the Bengals selection in the 3rd round.

Yeah, it did. And with the cream removed from the cup the Bengals found themselves adding a so-called safety of the future from the ranks of the undrafted, and a very marginal veteran FA for immediate backup duty. All of which serves as a handy reminder of why I'm still mad.

[derekshank]

The issue is that you didn't like the Shipley pick.

Only partially true. More accurately...I don't support the idea of a 1st round pick being used on any TE, especially in a deep TE draft. Furthermore, I don't like 3rd round picks being used on things I already have....even if it represents BPA. In fact, if you simply have to have another WR from a very weak WR draft class why not pick the very best one when you had the chance? Why not draft the guy who can become a starter? Why not draft a potential replacement for Chad rather than finding someone who'll compete with Caldwell? Finally, I don't like how those earlier decisions resulted in the Bengals being unable to find upgrades at the two positions that I felt competed with the TE position for the mantle of greatest need. Specifically, safety and interior OL help.

So why are we playing this game? We've talked in circles for days about the Shipley pick, and your inability to become a homer and accept it. Meanwhile, the root of the problem is with Gresham, a player that you have come to accept, in spite of the fact that there were half a dozen TEs worthy of being taken late in the 3rd round.

I said it then, and I'll say it now. Dan Williams should have been the pick at 21. He could have easily been a top 10 pick in a year that didn't have quite so much depth on the D-Line. But as you've said before, you eventually have to stop complaining and start cheering for the guys that are wearing orange. I had far more trouble doing that with Gresham than I did with Shipley. You, for some reason, were the opposite... despite your own admission that the discontent really began in the 1st round.

[HairOnFire]

But as you've said before, you eventually have to stop complaining and start cheering for the guys that are wearing orange. I had far more trouble doing that with Gresham than I did with Shipley. You, for some reason, were the opposite... despite your own admission that the discontent really began in the 1st round.

Mine is a death of a thousand cuts.

And Dez Briscoe is little more than salt for my wounds.

[jjakq27]

Should I notify the NTSB about an apparent hijacking here?

[Sea Ray]

Coffman was drafted as a project last year due to his foot injury and the unknown of whether he could ever develop into a decent blocker. My guess is at best they saw him as a passing down TE only.

But all you're doing is switching the luxury tag to the less expensive 3rd round pick used on Coffman, who now sees his role reduced before ever playing a down.

As for duplicating picks of years past, does that make this year's draft poor or is it correcting mistakes of the past?

Watch and learn I guess, but it seems odd that I'm still waiting for someone who actually supported the picks of Shipley to predict he'll produce more than 30 catches. As for Briscoe, I doubt he makes the active roster but if he does I can't see more than a dozen balls thrown his way.

So, does this sound like the stuff of corrected mistakes to you?

I think you can't expect immediate gratification when it comes to WR picks. Especially with this team, rookie WRs don't contribute much. Shipley may be an exception but I wouldn't bet on it.

Actually the reports from mini camp sound like Simpson is doing well. We can't count him out yet.

I think Mike Brown was completely fed up with the lack of receiving targets for CP last year and he decided that wasn't going to happen this year. So he threw a ton of guys up on the wall and figures a few will work out.

If Briscoe and Shipley don't catch many balls but their presence pushes guys like Caldwell and Cosby that's OK with me. In other words if we're so deep that they can't get on the field then one way or another MB did plug a huge hole on last year's team

[agreen_112]

Back on topic... I mentioned Widnt over a year ago. He's very good friends with Huber. I know this guy Widnt because he is an ex-boyfriend of my current girlfriend! I said a year ago that the Bengals should give him a chance, he has the skills. I'm just NOT looking forward to watching a game this year and have my girlfriend see him on an NFL team!!! That would suck... At least I know I'm bigger than him lol that makes me feel a little better about the situation ahahahaha....

How's everyone been?

[Trevor]

Back on topic... I mentioned Widnt over a year ago. He's very good friends with Huber. I know this guy Widnt because he is an ex-boyfriend of my current girlfriend! I said a year ago that the Bengals should give him a chance, he has the skills. I'm just NOT looking forward to watching a game this year and have my girlfriend see him on an NFL team!!! That would suck... At least I know I'm bigger than him lol that makes me feel a little better about the situation ahahahaha....

How's everyone been?

Dudeeee, that would suck... Lol but yes the size factor is big, but then he's gonna have a bunch of friends that are bigger too though... lol try like 20 lineman buddies. lmao jkjk

[agreen_112]

Back on topic... I mentioned Widnt over a year ago. He's very good friends with Huber. I know this guy Widnt because he is an ex-boyfriend of my current girlfriend! I said a year ago that the Bengals should give him a chance, he has the skills. I'm just NOT looking forward to watching a game this year and have my girlfriend see him on an NFL team!!! That would suck... At least I know I'm bigger than him lol that makes me feel a little better about the situation ahahahaha....

How's everyone been?

Dudeeee, that would suck... Lol but yes the size factor is big, but then he's gonna have a bunch of friends that are bigger too though... lol try like 20 lineman buddies. lmao jkjk

I guess I'm screwed.. I should start looking for a new girlfriend now.

In all seriousneess if Huber is still the holder and obviously the punter then it makes sense. Windt and Huber have had a very good chemistry and feel for each other.

[TJJackson]

I know this guy Widnt because blah blah blah

You know, it's amazing how many Bengal players you personally know.

almost unbelieveable

hmm, on second thought forget the "almost" part

[Trevor]

I know this guy Widnt because blah blah blah

You know, it's amazing how many Bengal players you personally know.

almost unbelieveable

hmm, on second thought forget the "almost" part

Come on man,.. Sometimes ppl just meet other ppl that live in the city... They happen to be football players... But i live in alabama so know none of them,.. Lol i'd love to meet them tho.

[Trevor]

Back on topic... I mentioned Widnt over a year ago. He's very good friends with Huber. I know this guy Widnt because he is an ex-boyfriend of my current girlfriend! I said a year ago that the Bengals should give him a chance, he has the skills. I'm just NOT looking forward to watching a game this year and have my girlfriend see him on an NFL team!!! That would suck... At least I know I'm bigger than him lol that makes me feel a little better about the situation ahahahaha....

How's everyone been?

Dudeeee, that would suck... Lol but yes the size factor is big, but then he's gonna have a bunch of friends that are bigger too though... lol try like 20 lineman buddies. lmao jkjk

I guess I'm screwed.. I should start looking for a new girlfriend now.

In all seriousneess if Huber is still the holder and obviously the punter then it makes sense. Windt and Huber have had a very good chemistry and feel for each other.

Yeah,.. Whoever does the better job gets the snaps for me... I dont care if its harris or windt, just no more being nervous EVERY SINGLE SNAP like the beginning of last year