Shane Graham no longer an option ?

[Dadraftnick]

Since allowing Shayne Graham to enter free agency, the Bengals have since signed Dave Rayner and, on Friday, former tOSU Buckeye place kicker Mike Nugent.

When asked about Shayne Graham, head coach Marvin Lewis all but closed the door on any return for Graham. "Shane is a free agent football player. We have to move ahead. I cannot determine what is in Shane’s future, or speak for his representation. We are going to get ready to play football based on the way our football team is put together at this point."

So for all of that scary noise we've heard about a possible return, it seems that the Bengals won't be entertaining a return of a guy who, while tremendously accurate in non-pressure situations, wore out his welcome by missing clutch kicks.

I would hate to see him go even if he misses some clutch kicks, he has a high % of good field gols too.

If you are going to play the run first offense you have to count on alot of field goals.

Mike Nugent , when he was with Ohio State, was one of the best kickers I have ever seen so, lets hope that if Graham does not come back that Nugent can return to his old form.

By the way, what ever happend to Shane Graham's little sis?

She stopped posting when Graham started wanting more money which, makes me wonder if he has no plans to come back to Cincy and has told her so.

[cincy9275]

i am glad he is gone. i wish him the best but shayne has worn out his welcome here. i know he made a high percentage of his kicks. the one's he did miss where huge. so much so, they over shadowed anything he accomplished as a bengal. as for nugent if he can get anything close to what he was at OSU. great pick up, if not come on rayner!!

[ArmyBengal]

You would hate to see him go even if he misses some clutch kicks ??

You mean like in the playoffs where if you lose you go home ?? That would suck if that happened. Wait a minute.....

Bye Shayne...

[derekshank]

[by the way, what ever happend to Shane Graham's little sis?

She stopped posting when Graham started wanting more money which, makes me wonder if he has no plans to come back to Cincy and has told her so.

Check out the thread where we talked about the Nugent signing. She showed up to talk about why being a kickoff specialist is hard in the NFL.

I like BengalSIS, and think it was cool having a family member of a Bengal on the site - but kickoffs aren't the reason I'm glad Graham is gone.

[redsbengalsbucks]

[by the way, what ever happend to Shane Graham's little sis?

She stopped posting when Graham started wanting more money which, makes me wonder if he has no plans to come back to Cincy and has told her so.

Check out the thread where we talked about the Nugent signing. She showed up to talk about why being a kickoff specialist is hard in the NFL.

I like BengalSIS, and think it was cool having a family member of a Bengal on the site - but kickoffs aren't the reason I'm glad Graham is gone.

Kickoffs are one of the reasons I would like to see an upgrade at K this season.

[BengalSIS]

I've been around...

And for the record...I'm his older sis. (and if I don't stop eating pizza, my 5'11 self is gonna truly be his bigger sis. )

I have no beef with folks wanting fresh blood. A good start might do both Shayne and the Bengals good. But i truly believe that the Bengals have been spoiled the last few years. His clutch makes are all but forgotten because of a lower number of clutch misses. Shame.

[COB]

His clutch makes are all but forgotten because of a lower number of clutch misses. Shame.

I love the fact Shane has a big sister lurking the message boards, ready to jump to his defense. I'll miss you BengalSIS and your posts.

Something tells me that when 4th grade Shane came home with a bloody nose, the neighborhood bully promptly received a knuckle sandwich, courtesy of BengalSIS.

[BengalSIS]

His clutch makes are all but forgotten because of a lower number of clutch misses. Shame.

I love the fact Shane has a big sister lurking the message boards, ready to jump to his defense. I'll miss you BengalSIS and your posts.

Something tells me that when 4th grade Shane came home with a bloody nose, the neighborhood bully promptly received a knuckle sandwich, courtesy of BengalSIS.

that knuckle sandwich was delivered yes...but he was only 2 when I delivered it to the 7 year old that hurt him. Since then, he's handled those battles on his own.

I'm just a facts checker now. Besides..he can kick my butt now...

[CJBestInAFC]

His clutch makes are all but forgotten because of a lower number of clutch misses. Shame.

I love the fact Shane has a big sister lurking the message boards, ready to jump to his defense. I'll miss you BengalSIS and your posts.

Something tells me that when 4th grade Shane came home with a bloody nose, the neighborhood bully promptly received a knuckle sandwich, courtesy of BengalSIS.

that knuckle sandwich was delivered yes...but he was only 2 when I delivered it to the 7 year old that hurt him. Since then, he's handled those battles on his own.

I'm just a facts checker now. Besides..he can kick my butt now...

So if not the Bengals where do you think Shayne lands?

[HairOnFire]

Check out the thread where we talked about the Nugent signing. She showed up to talk about why being a kickoff specialist is hard in the NFL.

True, but she completely ducked my question about whether Shayne even wants to be a Bengal any longer, and FWIW I think her silence speaks loudly.

To be fair Marvin Lewis also ducked the question in his statement, but not entirely, and IMHO his remark about not being able to speak for Shayne's agent is just more proof of the Bengals believing they've already made ANOTHER fair offer. And that brings us to Shaynes prolonged multi-year refusal to commit to a long term contract.

So he's out now, and presumably happy.

As for me, I've always liked and supported Shayne, and I'll miss him....until the first whistle blows.

[BengalSIS]

Check out the thread where we talked about the Nugent signing. She showed up to talk about why being a kickoff specialist is hard in the NFL.

True, but she completely ducked my question about whether Shayne even wants to be a Bengal any longer, and FWIW I think her silence speaks loudly.

To be fair Marvin Lewis also ducked the question in his statement, but not entirely, and IMHO his remark about not being able to speak for Shayne's agent is just more proof of the Bengals believing they've already made ANOTHER fair offer. And that brings us to Shaynes prolonged multi-year refusal to commit to a long term contract.

So he's out now, and presumably happy.

As for me, I've always liked and supported Shayne, and I'll miss him....until the first whistle blows.

I didn't duck the question. I don't remember seeing it. I've stated on here many times since that fateful day that he loves Cincy and would return if the team asked.

I said it either here or on the main board just yesterday that he loves Cincy and would stay. It's not up to him.

And I'm not answering where he'll be. People will find out when the time comes.

[HairOnFire]

I've stated on here many times since that fateful day that he loves Cincy and would return if the team asked.

I'd say they asked him to stay plenty of times over the last two or three years, and to the surprise of many continued to wait for his choice this year even after his spectacular playoff meltdown.

It's not up to him.

Actually, it is. And I remind myself again how Shayne never signed a long term contract to be a Bengal, and rather....has signed only one long-term NFL contract, offered years ago by Jacksonville, which the Bengals promptly matched and assumed.

And I'm not answering where he'll be. People will find out when the time comes.

Fair or unfair, I'm betting any lingering interest from the fans who write on this messageboard about where Shayne plays next just evaporated.

[BengalByTheBay]

I don't have too much to add here. I will very much miss BengalSIS as she's been very standup, regardless of some difficult circumstances last season. (FWIW- I always had that feeling about SG too.) I tend to agree that a few critical misses end up overshadowing many good seasons, but that's probably the case with every kicker's departure from anywhere. Goes with the territory. It's still the best job in the NFL and he'll probably be able to walk far longer than most players.

All that said, it's time to move on for both parties. I wish Shayne the absolute best.

[HairOnFire]

I will very much miss BengalSIS as she's been very standup, regardless of some difficult circumstances last season.

Agreed. Over the years I've enjoyed her posts very much, and considered them to be both informative and delicously combative. In retrospect it's fairly remarkable we never found the time or reason to swap broadsides.

Much respect, SIS.

All that said, it's time to move on for both parties. I wish Shayne the absolute best.

As do I.

[BengalSIS]

I'd say they asked him to stay plenty of times over the last two or three years, and to the surprise of many continued to wait for his choice this year even after his spectacular playoff meltdown.

I remind myself again how Shayne never signed a long term contract to be a Bengal, and rather....has signed only one long-term NFL contract, offered years ago by Jacksonville, which the Bengals promptly matched and assumed.

You'd say wrong. And if you see the other deals they "offer" people who are RFA, they always offer min. Jacksonville offered a real contract and Bengals had to match (a contract Shayne signed).

Also, I'm sure no one cares where he goes at this point, long as he's not here. Funny how I keep getting asked the question though.

[Trevor]

I'd say they asked him to stay plenty of times over the last two or three years, and to the surprise of many continued to wait for his choice this year even after his spectacular playoff meltdown.

I remind myself again how Shayne never signed a long term contract to be a Bengal, and rather....has signed only one long-term NFL contract, offered years ago by Jacksonville, which the Bengals promptly matched and assumed.

You'd say wrong. And if you see the other deals they "offer" people who are RFA, they always offer min. Jacksonville offered a real contract and Bengals had to match (a contract Shayne signed).

Also, I'm sure no one cares where he goes at this point, long as he's not here. Funny how I keep getting asked the question though.

I think its awesome your shaynes sister... He's a great kicker. I now know an NFL player too! The qb from my school got drafted by the bills!

[HairOnFire]

Jacksonville offered a real contract and Bengals had to match (a contract Shayne signed).

No, the Bengals didn't have to match, but they did so after their own prolonged negotiations with Shayne had stalled to the point they let him test the market. And that reminds me that negotiations between Shayne and the Bengals have always stalled, and did so repeatedly despite the Bengals proven willingness to match his market value, as they did in the Jacksonville example, as well as later when they agreed to pay him top dollar under the terms of the franchise player tag. So save the agent-speak about lowball offers because all I'm seeing from the Bengals is a proven and repeated willingness to pay top dollar for a kicker whose production didn't always justify the cost. As for Shayne, all I'm seeing is a constant demand for more, repeated over and over again, as years ticked by.

Also, I'm sure no one cares where he goes at this point, long as he's not here.

I liked him. Still do. And I would have welcomed him back under numerous scenarios. But how long are the Bengals supposed to wait for Graham? How long do they sit on an offer as he stalls while waiting for other teams to offer more than the Bengals already have? How long do they ignore other options?

Times up, right?

[BengalSIS]

Jacksonville offered a real contract and Bengals had to match (a contract Shayne signed).

No, the Bengals didn't have to match, but they did so after their own prolonged negotiations with Shayne had stalled to the point they let him test the market. And that reminds me that negotiations between Shayne and the Bengals have always stalled, and did so repeatedly despite the Bengals proven willingness to match his market value, as they did in the Jacksonville example, as well as later when they agreed to pay him top dollar under the terms of the franchise player tag. So save the agent-speak about lowball offers because all I'm seeing from the Bengals is a proven and repeated willingness to pay top dollar for a kicker whose production didn't always justify the cost. As for Shayne, all I'm seeing is a constant demand for more, repeated over and over again, as years ticked by.

Also, I'm sure no one cares where he goes at this point, long as he's not here.

I liked him. Still do. And I would have welcomed him back under numerous scenarios. But how long are the Bengals supposed to wait for Graham? How long do they sit on an offer as he stalls while waiting for other teams to offer more than the Bengals already have? How long do they ignore other options?

Times up, right?

I think it's great how the Bengals can make it look like they "offered" him anything compared to what was out there. They didn't OFFER him a real contract and only when Jacksonville offered did they agree to those terms. I didn't mean they "HAD" to match, I meant that if they wanted to keep him they needed to match. Otherwise, he would have been gone to Jacksonville.

And I think they were closer to a deal last year, but it just didn't happen. There was never talk of contracts outside of those two times.

And his production was record-setting and often game winning. He missed TWO kicks that didn't win games (Never missed a kick that left the Bengals behind at the end of the game where the kick meant the difference between winning and losing). He missed ONE in 2006. And it was damn close on a windy day...and we only would have made the playoffs because another team lost later that day. it's not like he had it all on his shoulders at that time.

Hindsight on what a player is thinking is easy to do for fans. But rarely are they right. There is a lot going on on the field, in the huddles, etc that no one knows about and yet people assume they understand why a player messed up etc. Just look at when people try to dissect a missed pass. Was it a bad route? Bad throw? Miscommunication? Slipped footing?...

I am not trying to really argue with you as I know you supported him. But you bring up points others have also said, and I'm speaking to them also.

He has done way more good than bad. As he should. People want perfection. They won't get it. They say they'll trade some "non clutch" misses, but when those misses come, they'll explain why those were also clutch... Every kick is important. Every one matters. Every kicker will miss some. Shayne had an bad day...and it got worse when the game started.

[HairOnFire]

They didn't OFFER him a real contract and only when Jacksonville offered did they agree to those terms.

Here's how I recall it going. Prolonged contract talks stall and the Bengals announce they'll let Shayne test FA to better determine his fair market price. They also insist they'll likely match any deal he signs, and after Shayne signs a FA contract with the Jags they do just that.

[quote name='BengalSIS' date='26 April 2010 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1272316909' post='320484'

And I think they were closer to a deal last year, but it just didn't happen.

[BengalSIS]

the quotes are so messed up in your last post Hair, that I'm going to start anew.

But all I can tell you is that just because an offer was out there, does not mean it was fair.

And I don't recall the Bengals saying anything about going to match offers way back when. they just knew they would have to match to keep him if another one was offered. I was actually pleasantly surprised that they did match back then.

I'm not talking any numbers here, but no one knows but the Bengals and Shayne (and his family) what he was offered or not offered. As I said, they came close before the Tag, but the Bengals went for the tag. Shayne didn't ask for it, and would have tested free agency just like 5 years before if they hadn't used it.

I don't think their relationship was "strained." Just two sides of a business deal that didn't work. He wasn't making demands or being difficult. The media likes to make drama for ratings.

Shayne would have been happy to retire in stripes. It's too bad he didn't, but it wasn't in the cards I guess.

[HairOnFire]

the quotes are so messed up in your last post Hair, that I'm going to start anew.

I don't blame you. I'm not sure where things went wrong, but the posting gods not only tweaked the way my original post appears, but also aren't allowing me to edit the mess.

I fear I've broken the internet.

But all I can tell you is that just because an offer was out there, does not mean it was fair.

But the salary they agreed to pay him was always fair. And furthermore, what could be more fair than allowing a player to determine his own fair market price by shopping his services to all teams?

I'm not talking any numbers here, but no one knows but the Bengals and Shayne (and his family) what he was offered or not offered. As I said, they came close before the Tag, but the Bengals went for the tag. Shayne didn't ask for it, and would have tested free agency just like 5 years before if they hadn't used it.

So despite coming close to a long-term agreement Shayne chose to play his own form of negotiating hardball by refusing to agree to a long-term contract even knowing how that refusal would likely result in him being franchise tagged. And he took this risk precisely because he assumed or hoped the Bengals would tag either Benson or Housh, right? However, that's not the way things went and by tagging Shayne the Bengals could keep him for another season at a salary roughly equal to or lower than he would have averaged under the long-term contract, right?

I don't think their relationship was "strained." Just two sides of a business deal that didn't work.

Frankly, I don't know how the relationship couldn't be strained after three years of failed attempts to get a long-term contract signed...especially when they had come so close at one point.

He wasn't making demands or being difficult. The media likes to make drama for ratings.

I never believed he was being difficult in that sense. But he was making salary demands that weren't being met, and he did engage in his own form of negotiating hardball, and was franchise tagged as a result, thereby making last year another salary year for Graham. And that didn't go according to anyones plan.

Shayne would have been happy to retire in stripes. It's too bad he didn't, but it wasn't in the cards I guess.

I guess not, and that saddens me. Because there aren't many kickers who I like at all. Yet somehow I liked Shayne from the start and still do. As a result he will always be affectionatly and proudly called Opie in my house no matter who he plays for next.

Unless of course he becomes a Raven.

[BengalPimp]

I would hate to see him go even if he misses some clutch kicks, he has a high % of good field gols too.

You know what i hate to see? The Bengals going for it on 4th and 2 from the 28 yard line because they have absolutely no confidence Sahyne will make a 45 yd FG.

One of the reasons he had a high percentage is he didnt attempt long FG's....Only the short sh*t !

Although last year he did attempt 4 over 50 yds (2-4) That was Rare, as he had ZERO attempts from 50+ in 2008, and only 1 attempt over 50 in 2007 (0-1).

Sick and damned tired of watching the Bengals go for it on 4th and short in FG range because of Graham.....

[BengalSIS]

I would hate to see him go even if he misses some clutch kicks, he has a high % of good field gols too.

You know what i hate to see? The Bengals going for it on 4th and 2 from the 28 yard line because they have absolutely no confidence Sahyne will make a 45 yd FG.

One of the reasons he had a high percentage is he didnt attempt long FG's....Only the short sh*t !

Although last year he did attempt 4 over 50 yds (2-4) That was Rare, as he had ZERO attempts from 50+ in 2008, and only 1 attempt over 50 in 2007 (0-1).

Sick and damned tired of watching the Bengals go for it on 4th and short in FG range because of Graham.....

This post is without context and supporting evidence.

There were not that many avoided attempts at long FG's. His number of total attempts is a testament to that. The Bengals just stalled closer in the redzone. What's he supposed to do...say "Marvin...I know we are getting closer and could score, but can you please just stop here and let me kick a long one?"

His 50+ % is among the top kickers. Deal with it. Did he get many opportunities? No. But he did this year, and did fairly well. Vinetari had about 6 years in NE where he didn't kick one over 50, and one year where he didn't make one over 39. Does that mean NE thought he sucked or couldn't kick long ones?

And he also has one of the best 40-50 range % of kickers.

Hair...He did not have 3 unsuccessful years of negotiations. It's so funny. Teams can drop players just like that. No warning, and very little of contracts actually signed go to the player when cut. But the players are always the bad guys..even when they are just looking for a higher % of money guaranteed, or a longer contract, or whatever. But the media and fans always assume it's about more money. I can tell you...most of what people think about the NFL ..is wrong.

I recommend people read "A few seconds of Panic"...good book. Lots of inside info.

And you say this: But the salary they agreed to pay him was always fair (and you know this how?). And furthermore, what could be more fair than allowing a player to determine his own fair market price by shopping his services to all teams?

And in the next breath, admit they didn't let him determine...they tagged him. And he didn't play hardball, he was a free agent, had a worth determined by the market and the Bengals didn't want to pay it long term. Players want long term for job security, and benefits. A one year contract doesn't benefit players due to injury risks, etc.

yes, they tagged him, but he didn't really want it. He would have been ok to let the market determine value. Bengals obviously knew he could likely get a better deal than what they were offering, or they didn't need to tag him. His going to market wasn't a sign that he wanted to leave. It was just saying I want the market to determine my worth..if the Bengals offer long term around those lines, then great. They tagged instead. How is that his fault?

[MARVIN=W'S]

Graham sure has missed some big kicks but I'm concerned that the 2 guys they brought in are far from being upgrades at the position. I like the idea of making a change but it has to improve the team. Change for the sake of change doesn't help anyone.

[bwillycuse]

Graham sure has missed some big kicks but I'm concerned that the 2 guys they brought in are far from being upgrades at the position. I like the idea of making a change but it has to improve the team. Change for the sake of change doesn't help anyone.

IMO it is time for a change. No way to know if the new guy is going to be better than Shayne.

Shayne had his opportunities when it really mattered and the kicks just didn't go in. You have to have confidence in your kicker and at this time, I don't. (first miss against Jets was a killer for the game, the second was the nail in the coffin for Shayne here)

Whomever comes in and takes the place kicker job will still have pressure on him. But if Shayne had another opportunity to win a huge game in Paul Brown stadium, I think his head would explode with the pressure on his shoulders. (I would be stressing as well and picturing Shaquille Oneal trying to make a free throw for the championship- wouldnt be able to watch)

He'll land somewhere else, hopefully he doesn't find his comfort zone against us at any point.