If We Take a WR in Rd. 1-3..

[membengal]

Hair wrote:

Well, I most certainly wasn't okay with what they did in 2008, but that hardly matters now...because the end result is the same. That being, roll the dice with the choices you've already made. Find out if Simpson and Coffman can play before selecting replacement players who will only further reduce the roles and playing time of players you've spent high draft picks to acquire.

I certainly do remember your strident objections to what they did, and you may be proved right. You are closer to right at this point than I was in advovating for the WR picks. Course, if they had picked Desean Jackson... ah well.

At any rate, your cogent summary "we are the bastard sons of Paul Brown" stuck with me from when you first trotted that out, and I have taken it to heart. I think that is balls on accurate, and one of the reasons I came to more quickly accept the different style of winning last year. It wasn't as pretty, but it was damn effective. So if the Bengals want to continue to embrace the new image they are forging for themselves, then more big, fast, aggressive and angry maulers at interior line, the edge on defense, and safety are certainly where I would go.

I am afraid you are right about Mike B's bent to wanting the skillz boyz early, but that's where you and I are on the same page this time around. Go away from that, and live with the throw they made in the 2008 draft. If receivers take around three years to develop, in general, then Simpson and Caldwell need to step up and meet the moment. That's why I was okay with selecting at that position in 2008, so they would be ready in 2010. If they are not, well, that's going to be less than ideal. But I definitely agree I don't want to see them chasing their tail at that spot just in case.

[HairOnFire]

Frankly, I won't be upset if they do, or if they don't, draft a WR in the first few rounds. That said, I expect them to take one no later than the second.

"...no later than the second round."

Sure.

Because THAT'S who this team is.

And here's the other part of who we are.

It will probably be the rawest hunk of beef with the greatest potential upside available in the draft.

Or the guy with the biggest hands.

So whose up for some Arrelious Benn-gal?

[HoosierCat]

Because THAT'S who this team is.

Nah. Just because WR remains a legitimate position of need. If anything, the need is even greater now versus this time in 2008, because the Bengals have even less talent at WR. And while a rookie isn't likely to be a big help in 2010, not addressing the position only delays the development of someone who will, eventually, be able to help.

Moreover, even if the light bulb does finally come on for Jerome Simpson, this is basically a contract year for Chad, though the Bengals have an option for 2011. So at best, without taking another stab at WR fairly early, the Bengals are looking at treading water at wideout.

[membengal]

Free agent signing. That's how they don't tread water.

Sign a FA wide receiver. Hopefully one not on the downside like Coles was.

[HairOnFire]

If anything, the need is even greater now versus this time in 2008, because the Bengals have even less talent at WR.

So in your most humble of opinions, the Bengals now have less talent at WR now despite drafting three wideouts in 2008. So how many more premium picks would you like to burn on the same position this year? And how many more in 2011?

And while a rookie isn't likely to be a big help in 2010....

Forget the idea of big help. Isn't it more likely a rookie WR will be no help at all?

...not addressing the position only delays the development of someone who will, eventually, be able to help.

But they have addressed the position, haven't they? In fact, after watching Chad wage a year long media war against them they practically traded their f**king souls for wideouts in 2008. So how about "developing" those guys before shopping for more? After all, the same coaches who haven't seen fit to play Jerome Simpson are exactly the same ones who once stood atop a table advocating he be drafted in the second round.

....this is basically a contract year for Chad, though the Bengals have an option for 2011.

Well, no...it's not a contract year at all. Because Chad's under contract for two more seasons at a very reasonable salary. Furthermore, the Bengals have already burned a 2nd round pick and two years of energy on his so-called replacement. So tell me again why the Bengals have to use yet another early pick on yet another WR who won't get substantial playing time until Chad is finally s**tcanned?

So at best, without taking another stab at WR fairly early, the Bengals are looking at treading water at wideout.

Well if the best they can do at that position is tread water why try so hard? Why put up with Ocho antics? Why throw bags of coin at a miserable f**k like TJ who stupidly refuses to negotiate in good faith? Why lose credibility and respect hanging on to a Chris Henry when he's already proven himself to be one of the dumbest players to ever put on stripes? Why put yourself in a position where you're tempted to throw good money after bad for an aging Lav Coles? In fact, why sit back every year and watch some diva wideout ruin all of your plans? What have they ever gotten for all of their efforts and trouble besides an 8-8 record and a clown car filled with high maintenance idiots?

Run the ball. Play defense. Print playoff tickets.

[walzav29]

I DO NOT want a wr from the 1st round. I think the value will be equal in the 2nd. We need a gamechanger on defense. Thats what they have to get with the #1 pick.

[HoosierCat]

Free agent signing. That's how they don't tread water.

Sign a FA wide receiver. Hopefully one not on the downside like Coles was.

Who? Thanks to the CBA mess, the FA pool is crappier than ever. Impact players are few, and will command the kind of prices that Cincy doesn't pay. Things open up some if they are willing to trade, but getting a top-tier guy like Brandon Marshall will mean giving up the first, plus more.

In a related note, Hobson just tossed a transcript of Marvin's combine comments up on the site. He was adamant about the need for more vertical plays, more "chunks," etc. And taking his comments at face value, he didn't sound like they would address that issue through either a TE (hasn't bothered to watch any TE film yet) or OL (praised current line, A. Smith) early...which pretty much leaves WR (faint praise for Coles, same "doggonit, he's a-tryin'" stuff about Jerome).

[HoosierCat]

So in your most humble of opinions, the Bengals now have less talent at WR now despite drafting three wideouts in 2008.

Yup, unfortunately.

So how many more premium picks would you like to burn on the same position this year? And how many more in 2011?

Frankly, none. But what a team would like to do, and reality, are often different.

But they have addressed the position, haven't they?

Yup...and unfortunately, they haven't succeeded.

Well if the best they can do at that position is tread water why try so hard? Why put up with Ocho antics? Why throw bags of coin at a miserable f**k like TJ who stupidly refuses to negotiate in good faith? Why lose credibility and respect hanging on to a Chris Henry when he's already proven himself to be one of the dumbest players to ever put on stripes? Why put yourself in a position where you're tempted to throw good money after bad for an aging Lav Coles? In fact, why sit back every year and watch some diva wideout ruin all of your plans? What have they ever gotten for all of their efforts and trouble besides an 8-8 record and a clown car filled with high maintenance idiots?

Good questions all. Direct them to Mikey and let me know if you hear back. I'd be interested in the answers.

[HairOnFire]

In a related note, Hobson just tossed a transcript of Marvin's combine comments up on the site. He was adamant about the need for more vertical plays, more "chunks," etc. And taking his comments at face value, he didn't sound like they would address that issue through either a TE (hasn't bothered to watch any TE film yet) or OL (praised current line, A. Smith) early...which pretty much leaves WR (faint praise for Coles, same "doggonit, he's a-tryin'" stuff about Jerome).

Sorry, but I didn't read anything that pointed to a WR being drafted early. In fact, he said numerous things that splashed a little cold water on the idea. For example...

Q: Is Jerome Simpson ready to break through?

ML: “We’re going to do everything we can to help Jerome progress down that road. He’s a player who I feel very good about. He tries to do everything we’ve asked him to do. We can’t get him on the field and let him feel good about himself enough. We’re going to take some steps to keep him down that road.”

Q: Can he be that deep threat?

ML: “He can be that guy. He should be that guy. That’s why we drafted him.”

Q: Do you need more vertical speed?

ML: “We need to be able to make vertical plays and if we throw it down 40 yards and get a pass interference penalty that counts. Those are the things we’re going to look to do. We need to make more chunk plays offensively and be able to effect the game so that we don’t grind it out and have 25 first downs every week.”

[HoosierCat]

In fact, he said numerous things that splashed a little cold water on the idea.

Funny how two people can read the same thing and come to exactly the opposite conclusion.

[membengal]

Free agent signing. That's how they don't tread water.

Sign a FA wide receiver. Hopefully one not on the downside like Coles was.

Who? Thanks to the CBA mess, the FA pool is crappier than ever. Impact players are few, and will command the kind of prices that Cincy doesn't pay. Things open up some if they are willing to trade, but getting a top-tier guy like Brandon Marshall will mean giving up the first, plus more.

In a related note, Hobson just tossed a transcript of Marvin's combine comments up on the site. He was adamant about the need for more vertical plays, more "chunks," etc. And taking his comments at face value, he didn't sound like they would address that issue through either a TE (hasn't bothered to watch any TE film yet) or OL (praised current line, A. Smith) early...which pretty much leaves WR (faint praise for Coles, same "doggonit, he's a-tryin'" stuff about Jerome).

Yes, FA is murkier than usual this year, but there will be some guys who will help kicking around. I have not perused the list of post sixth year guys who will be free and clear under an uncapped year, other than to note I believe Malcolm Floyd is one such guy. Someone like him. I want this team to win now, in the window that is open to it. An inevitable project of a high round WR won't do that. They went that route in 2008. Time for those guys to pay off. And if they can't backstop them with someone like Floyd.

Spend your draft picks on immediate impact high upside guys on the defensive line, offensive line, LB and S. Build on strengths, run the ball, win. I am with Hair on this. If they are going to embrace this identity, by all means, embrace it. Go all in.

[HairOnFire]

Funny how two people can read the same thing and come to exactly the opposite conclusion.

Well, you tell me what other conclusion anyone should come to after reading Marvin's appraisal of Simpson.

Again...

“He can be that guy. He should be that guy. That’s why we drafted him.”

[membengal]

Just went looking for the uncapped year unrestricted list of available WRs, and couldn't find an easy list, but on what appeared to be a list of all such players on nfl.com, didn't see Malcolm Floyd listed, which means he may be restricted in an uncapped year.

Two names that appear to be unrestricted that would be of interest to this Bengals zealot are old friend Kevin Walter and Antonio Bryant.

[HoosierCat]

Funny how two people can read the same thing and come to exactly the opposite conclusion.

Well, you tell me what other conclusion anyone should come to after reading Marvin's appraisal of Simpson.

Again...

“He can be that guy. He should be that guy. That’s why we drafted him.”

Can be. Should be.

In other words, ain't.

[HoosierCat]

[if they are going to embrace this identity, by all means, embrace it. Go all in.

They have been, since about 2005. Or how else do you think last year happened? It certainly wasn't because we were the "bastard sons of Paul Brown," right?

[HoosierCat]

Bonus Marvin comments:

/>http://www.cincyjungle.com/2010/2/26/1328403/2010-nfl-scouting-combine-coverage

Sounds like he would prefer a FA wideout as well.

Things that make you go hmmm dep't:

To me, it's not as important in the draft to fill every seat, but fill every seat with the best football players because every football team is put together a little different (sic). When you draft by need, you take a lesser player, and you take a lesser player, two years later, they'restill a lesser player. He doesn't maybe get better. You want to take the best players you can take

[HairOnFire]

Can be. Should be.

In other words, ain't.

But a yet to be determined rookie selected who knows where in the draft is?

Bulls**t.

Marvin Lewis simply isn't saying any of the things you claim he is. In fact, he's saying the opposite, and there's absolutely nothing in the transcript that supports your claim.

[HairOnFire]

[if they are going to embrace this identity, by all means, embrace it. Go all in.

They have been, since about 2005.

Really? Did we all imagine the 2008 draft? Or are you simply more willing to forget it precisely becuse you got what you wanted in that draft yet have almost nothing to show for it?

Or how else do you think last year happened? It certainly wasn't because we were the "bastard sons of Paul Brown," right?

Exactly. Playing smash ball worked. So why are you advocating they go back to the WR based pinball attack that resulted in far more passing yards and far fewer wins?

[HairOnFire]

Bonus Marvin comments:Sounds like he would prefer a FA wideout as well.

So again, the exact opposite of what you just claimed, right?

[HoosierCat]

Can be. Should be.

In other words, ain't.

But a yet to be determined rookie selected who knows where in the draft is?

Bulls**t.

Marvin Lewis simply isn't saying any of the things you claim he is. In fact, he's saying the opposite, and there's absolutely nothing in the transcript that supports your claim.

Where did I or Marvin say a rookie selected in the draft is anything? All he and I said is that Jerome ain't. Solution is to be determined, FA, trade, draft or otherwise.

[if they are going to embrace this identity, by all means, embrace it. Go all in.

They have been, since about 2005.

Really? Did we all imagine the 2008 draft? Or are you simply more willing to forget it precisely becuse you got what you wanted in that draft yet have almost nothing to show for it?

We have nothing to show for it? Well, that sort of points out why we need to go to the well again, right?

Arguing that we shouldn't take a WR early in April is sort of like arguing that we shouldn't have taken Rivers and Maualuga because we drafted Pollack and Odell with high picks in '05. Reality is a bitch, aint' it?

Or how else do you think last year happened? It certainly wasn't because we were the "bastard sons of Paul Brown," right?

Exactly. Playing smash ball worked. So why are you advocating they go back to the WR based pinball attack that resulted in far more passing yards and far fewer wins?

Why are you so worried that the D and running game they spent the last few years building are so fragile? The whole house of cards comes tumbling down if the draft a WR? Seems iffy to me.

Bonus Marvin comments:Sounds like he would prefer a FA wideout as well.

So again, the exact opposite of what you just claimed, right?

Nope. I said Marvin wanted to get a vertical passing game and more chunks. He can get that in more ways than the draft. If he doesn't, look for a WR early.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm on board with being neither pleased nor irritated with a WR pick in the first few rounds. My thing is why take the 3rd best WR in the first when the 7th or even 8th best WR could be had in the 4th with little drop off in talent from 3-7 or 8 ?? It would simply seem like a better option team wise and talent wise to take the top rated player or 2nd rated player at another position of need and wait.

In other words, give me an Iupati if they truly feel building on the running game is paramount or someone like Mays if he were to fall (as some are still predicting) and couple him with JJoe and Hall. There are still many ways they can go, but I just feel it's either put up or shutup time with Caldwell and more to the point, Simpson and take the WR later. Even the comp pick in the 3rd would be nice.

Give me:

Taylor Mays (S)

Mike Johnson (OG)

Name your (DE)

Mike Williams (WR)

and a TE (Pitta ??) in the 4th

[wpeldios]

In a related note, Hobson just tossed a transcript of Marvin's combine comments up on the site. He was adamant about the need for more vertical plays, more "chunks," etc. And taking his comments at face value, he didn't sound like they would address that issue through either a TE (hasn't bothered to watch any TE film yet) or OL (praised current line, A. Smith) early...which pretty much leaves WR (faint praise for Coles, same "doggonit, he's a-tryin'" stuff about Jerome).

Sorry, but I didn't read anything that pointed to a WR being drafted early. In fact, he said numerous things that splashed a little cold water on the idea. For example...

Q: Is Jerome Simpson ready to break through?

ML: “We’re going to do everything we can to help Jerome progress down that road. He’s a player who I feel very good about. He tries to do everything we’ve asked him to do. We can’t get him on the field and let him feel good about himself enough. We’re going to take some steps to keep him down that road.”

Q: Can he be that deep threat?

ML: “He can be that guy. He should be that guy. That’s why we drafted him.”

Q: Do you need more vertical speed?

ML: “We need to be able to make vertical plays and if we throw it down 40 yards and get a pass interference penalty that counts. Those are the things we’re going to look to do. We need to make more chunk plays offensively and be able to effect the game so that we don’t grind it out and have 25 first downs every week.”

Two major comments stood out in this to me. "He tries to do everything we’ve asked" and "He should be that guy." Too me this sounds like cautious optimism at best. I think Marvin is hoping Jerome can step up, but is not confident in him at all, and with good reason.

That said, they should be taking the guys whoa re the best value and can help this team. I don't like any of the TE in the first, but S, OG, WR, DT, DE are all needs there. And TE and possibly CB in the second and third as well. Take the best players in any of those positions.

[HAPPYJAQ]

If Mardy runs 4.5+ today, than he's as sure a bet as we've ever had here to be selected in the 3rd round. He fits the Mike Brown criteria for WRs (for the most part), is a local favorite and is practically begging to be a Cincinnati Bengal.

Hell, they might even reach in Round 2, especially if they somehow were to trade down. Wouldn't surprise me to see them look at Mike Williams in the 3rd, either, who is undoubtedly the Bernard Scott-type problem child of this draft.

[derekshank]

This WR class reminds me a little of the '06 class. There isn't much that's worthy of an early pick... and if you need a WR at all, you better be the first one to take one.

The Steelers traded up that year to draft to get Santonio Holmes. Other than him in the first, Greg Jennings in the 2nd, Brandon Marshall in the 4th, and Marques Colston in the 7th... there hasn't been anything of note from that draft. But there were 16 WRs taken in the first 4 rounds alone.

My opinion is if they don't take a WR in the 1st, it's unlikely that any WR they take will have much of an impact.

For you guys on the Mardy Gilyard bandwagon... would you care about him at all if he didn't play for Cincinnati? He's essentially a less physically gifted version of Golden Tate. All the same concerns about a prima donna attitude and claims that he only performed well against 2nd tier talent. Frankly, I wouldn't trust Gilyard to be much more than a KO/Punt returner. Hardly worth a 2nd round pick.

[HAPPYJAQ]

This WR class reminds me a little of the '06 class. There isn't much that's worthy of an early pick... and if you need a WR at all, you better be the first one to take one.

The Steelers traded up that year to draft to get Santonio Holmes. Other than him in the first, Greg Jennings in the 2nd, Brandon Marshall in the 4th, and Marques Colston in the 7th... there hasn't been anything of note from that draft. But there were 16 WRs taken in the first 4 rounds alone.

My opinion is if they don't take a WR in the 1st, it's unlikely that any WR they take will have much of an impact.

For you guys on the Mardy Gilyard bandwagon... would you care about him at all if he didn't play for Cincinnati? He's essentially a less physically gifted version of Golden Tate. All the same concerns about a prima donna attitude and claims that he only performed well against 2nd tier talent. Frankly, I wouldn't trust Gilyard to be much more than a KO/Punt returner. Hardly worth a 2nd round pick.

Good post, and an excellent point on Gilyard. The Senior Bowl performance put me back on the positive about Gilyard, but I also don't see him as a 2nd round talent. The truth is, he's probably not an outside WR in the NFL, as his already-maxed out build will never allow him to consistently beat bump-and-run coverage, without elite vertical speed. He's a speciality player, who needs proper coaching on technique and discipline. He's definitely more of an immediate slot guy and returner at this point.

...But then there's the Desean Jackson argument.

I personally don't seem him in that class, but Mardy does have similar instincts, ball skills and acceleration.

Carlon Mitchell remains my hope if we're talking WR still in the third round. Mike Williams is also interesting, and I'm growing on Marcus Easley, although he scares the hell out of me. He's a tremendous athlete, with good college production and extremely raw. He might be the Jerome Simpson of this draft, but he did perform well against better competition.