The Shayne Graham Thread

[ArmyBengal]

I was at the game yesterday and watched Shane Graham single handily lost the game for the Bengals.

I'm mad with Shayne's performance, but in regards to the bolded, underlined part of your post... I can't agree.

Carson was throwing high most of the game. The WR's were dropping balls or not able to get open. The defense couldn't get any pressure on the rookie QB. For some reason Coats was still targeted and go figure, he dropped it. The stupid ass challenges at the beginning of the game that anyone could see were pointless. The boneheaded pre-snap penalties and more could also be contributed to the loss.

[kingwilly]

I was at the game yesterday and watched Shane Graham single handily lost the game for the Bengals.

I'm mad with Shayne's performance, but in regards to the bolded, underlined part of your post... I can't agree.

Carson was throwing high most of the game. The WR's were dropping balls or not able to get open. The defense couldn't get any pressure on the rookie QB. For some reason Coats was still targeted and go figure, he dropped it. The stupid ass challenges at the beginning of the game that anyone could see were pointless. The boneheaded pre-snap penalties and more could also be contributed to the loss.

it is 33-33-33

Shared between Carson and Graham and two defensive breakdowns.

If Graham makes those kicks, the JEts have to play a different scheme and momentu grows for the bengals D. Missing the kicks hurts the morale and momentum, and considering the play that is a FG, and the distances, they should have been made and there is no excuse.

Carson augered the Offense several times with a dozen poor throws. Gotta get Carson fixed, if possible.

The defense uncharacteristically botched the Greene run and the Distin Keller catches. They can fix that.

It is a shared loss.

Fixing the kicking is the easiest. Get a new one. And, it will be done.

[generaldreedle]

I have caught a lot of flak for prior criticism of Shayne. But if anyone can put a positive spin on his performance in the clutch, I'll vote for them for mayor.

Like I have stated earlier ad infinitum, I don't trust him to be the kicker when a game/season is in the balance.

Kai Forbath, place kicker for UCLA. Ranked top place kicker in the country and his kick offs routinely go into or out of endzone. Nuff said.

[Jet23]

Wow, even our ex-kickers choke. You could tell by the look on Racker's face, that he had no shot of making that kick. I think I have seen that look before recently...

[BengalSIS]

Before I make my post... FYI...the short kickoff was called play. Not a short kickoff.

.....Now..moving on.

Hello Bengals fans,

I have returned from 16 hour round trip to stand in the cold and watch the game. Despite horrible play from many Bengals...I'm sure that's not what anyone cares to hear from me. So, I'll go straight to what anyone cares about. I'm not going through all the threads. I've had enough heartache for a while. I might read as I feel up to it.

No excuse for those misses (and he doesn't make any). Good snaps/holds and the line held. This was plain not being focused and just messing up. I won't go into why that might have been. Doesn't matter. Point is he wasn't and while I don't lay the whole loss on Shayne (Palmer and squad are a close second in my book (minus Benson who I think played great) he certainly played a large role in the loss. His last miss took away our shot at coming within a score, essentially sinking the ship.

Should Palmer and Co. have scored those touchdowns...yes. BUT, it's Shayne's job if he doesn't.

I have stood in the cold (even tailgated with fellow fans from another board) many times. And not without taking a little heat from those who are not his biggest fan. But I have never run from the criticism, or not shown up at the tailgate because I was worried about a fan who disagrees with me. I'll even toss the ball around with such a fan, should he actually be able to throw/catch (you see I question some of the athletic abilities of our more cynical bunch)..

I stood, without a coat and with Shayne's jersey on, the entire game yesterday. Not one time did I touch the seats with my behind. I screamed myself hoarse while on D, and cheered when we did well, and...yes, cried when Shayne missed the kicks. I have earned the right to defend Shayne (who deserved far less criticism over the years than he got, and deserved more praise than he got). I have earned the right to post where I want. Those who have criticized my posting in the past or present...sorry you don't like it. But I do as I please...I'm stubborn that way.

But know this. Shayne cares more than you know (I was with him after the game...the reason he left btw, as I only had a few hours with him before I had to sleep for a long drive home today), and he won't give up. Whatever was bothering him yesterday ...he'll learn to keep it from bothering him again. Sometimes it takes hard times to teach you, or remind you, of how to take care of business. I have faith he'll do it.

To those to recognize the fact that Shayne is human and people mess up from time to time...Thank you. I wish you all the best.

To those who expect perfection...eh...when you get there, I'll listen. Until then, many people in this world will disappoint you. I hope it's not your spouse/daughter/son/sibling. Because the pain I felt yesterday and continue to feel today for the hurt that I know is in the gut of someone I love....I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

So...good luck in the future. I will always cheer for the Bengals, as despite some of the turds I've grown to "love" on the boards, I have grown to love the team. I will not speak poorly of them, and unless Shayne (should he be lucky enough to find another home ...many career kickers have missed worse and still continued to play) happens to play against them, I will hope for a Bengal win.

PS. To the person who missed my head with a beer bottle by 6 inches after the last kick....grow up.

OH...and I'm not typin this s**t multiple times, so if you, like me post on several boards...consider this my "statement" if you will.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If Shayne made those easy kicks, this thread wouldn't exist. Your brother choked.

Sorry. It happens.

[kingwilly]

Before I make my post... FYI...the short kickoff was called play. Not a short kickoff.

.....Now..moving on.

Hello Bengals fans,

I have returned from 16 hour round trip to stand in the cold and watch the game. Despite horrible play from many Bengals...I'm sure that's not what anyone cares to hear from me. So, I'll go straight to what anyone cares about. I'm not going through all the threads. I've had enough heartache for a while. I might read as I feel up to it.

No excuse for those misses (and he doesn't make any). Good snaps/holds and the line held. This was plain not being focused and just messing up. I won't go into why that might have been. Doesn't matter. Point is he wasn't and while I don't lay the whole loss on Shayne (Palmer and squad are a close second in my book (minus Benson who I think played great) he certainly played a large role in the loss. His last miss took away our shot at coming within a score, essentially sinking the ship.

Should Palmer and Co. have scored those touchdowns...yes. BUT, it's Shayne's job if he doesn't.

I have stood in the cold (even tailgated with fellow fans from another board) many times. And not without taking a little heat from those who are not his biggest fan. But I have never run from the criticism, or not shown up at the tailgate because I was worried about a fan who disagrees with me. I'll even toss the ball around with such a fan, should he actually be able to throw/catch (you see I question some of the athletic abilities of our more cynical bunch)..

I stood, without a coat and with Shayne's jersey on, the entire game yesterday. Not one time did I touch the seats with my behind. I screamed myself hoarse while on D, and cheered when we did well, and...yes, cried when Shayne missed the kicks. I have earned the right to defend Shayne (who deserved far less criticism over the years than he got, and deserved more praise than he got). I have earned the right to post where I want. Those who have criticized my posting in the past or present...sorry you don't like it. But I do as I please...I'm stubborn that way.

But know this. Shayne cares more than you know (I was with him after the game...the reason he left btw, as I only had a few hours with him before I had to sleep for a long drive home today), and he won't give up. Whatever was bothering him yesterday ...he'll learn to keep it from bothering him again. Sometimes it takes hard times to teach you, or remind you, of how to take care of business. I have faith he'll do it.

To those to recognize the fact that Shayne is human and people mess up from time to time...Thank you. I wish you all the best.

To those who expect perfection...eh...when you get there, I'll listen. Until then, many people in this world will disappoint you. I hope it's not your spouse/daughter/son/sibling. Because the pain I felt yesterday and continue to feel today for the hurt that I know is in the gut of someone I love....I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

So...good luck in the future. I will always cheer for the Bengals, as despite some of the turds I've grown to "love" on the boards, I have grown to love the team. I will not speak poorly of them, and unless Shayne (should he be lucky enough to find another home ...many career kickers have missed worse and still continued to play) happens to play against them, I will hope for a Bengal win.

PS. To the person who missed my head with a beer bottle by 6 inches after the last kick....grow up.

OH...and I'm not typin this s**t multiple times, so if you, like me post on several boards...consider this my "statement" if you will.

Thanks for the post. It is appreciated.

I think we can all understand that Shayne is a good person, probably a great brother and a fine human. I really like Shayne for all he does in the community and I also like what I've seen of his personality. It is all good.

The missed kicks were tough. very tough. Obviously, in any line of work, especially a public position, where physical performance is what is the measure of the job, not doing a good job is both painful and will attract unavoidable criticism, whether warranted or not.

Despite the struggles of the team, the QB and Defense as most damaging, the loss is shared by the team on the whole. It is not just the fault of one person but the teams. Even in a win, Shayne's misses would merit serious review, as would the drops of several WR's and the failings of several defensive players. If the team advances, amends could be made and jobs saved but this is not the case, and this ultimately is the business of winning, something this town has little exposure to.

Should the Bengals exercise some thought and weigh the benefits and downsides of working out a new contract with Shayne, I think most will look at it with a sour stare and wonder why. If he is not offered a new deal, most will consider the critical missed kicks and think the result is deserved. How can you offer millions to a player who has a physically basic job who cannot execute under duress?

I feel it is a shame that he missed. They were simple kicks in decent conditions and his job is ultimately the pursuit of perfection. All was well in the set-up, and only he knows what was amiss. Making the kicks would not have won the game but could have made a difference in momentum and possibly the game. Alas, what could have been...

To the idiot who jetted a bottle near you, may they slip on ice in a painful fall. There will always be the classless reactionaries. Emotions run high, and I found myself cursing not only Shayne but the team the game and outcome. That is sports.

No matter what happens, Shayne is a class person who found a way to provide for his family in a way most could never imagine. Respect for that, and good luck in the future, wherever his future may lie. And, thank you for taking the time to post a thoughtful message. You are a good sister.

[Stripes]

If Shayne made those easy kicks, this thread wouldn't exist. Your brother choked.

Sorry. It happens.

That's essentially what she said, with less bruising vocabulary.

Good post, SIS. I don't hate Graham for his misses yesterday, and I don't even necessarily think they're indicative of some deep mental failure of his to perform well in pressure situations. I've never been overly interested in the "clutch" concept, and I'd listen to arguments attributing his bad game to chance rather than his general worth as an NFL kicker. He's had a good career with far more ups than downs, and I'm glad he's spent time with the Bengals.

Should he be let go I won't be disappointed. It's easy to understand why a team would go in another direction given the circumstances. I won't raise hell if he's retained either though, at the right price. We could do much worse.

[bpepper]

Shayne is certainly a class act, and indisputably a good kicker. The problem is, kickers are measured by kicks that win and lose games in pressure situations. In the postseason, games are close and often come down to field goals, most visibly game winning/tying kicks. The second kick wasn't one of those, i.e. the difference btw Scott Norwood and Vinatieri, but it was pretty darn close for all of us who have hoped, waited, and cheered fruitlessly so long for a winner. The point is, perhaps the most important attribute we need in a kicker - provided he is decent at, you know, kicking - is the ability to hold up under pressure. Sadly, for whatever reason, between 2006 and Saturday it just hasn't happened for an otherwise very likeable Bengal. Wish he would have had more opportunities, but they just don't come often in the NFL, certainly not for us. I sincerely hope he figures it out and finds another situation that works out well for him, but in the meantime I'd have a hard time heading to or near the playoffs again with Shayne. I do wish him the best, but we can't afford to test the waters with him again in our third playoff appearance in 20+ years when it comes.

[wpeldios]

Before I make my post... FYI...the short kickoff was called play. Not a short kickoff.

That was something I wanted to know. With that i have to call the special teams coach into question too. But thats besides the point.

Shayne was a good kicker for us for a long time. But unfortunately I do think this will end up costing him in the long run. I wish him luck if he goes somewhere else, and even more luck if he stays, but if i had to guess I would say hes going.

That said, anyone who throws a bottle at your head needs to be slapped around a bit. I had a beer thrown at me in pittsburgh once, If people cant control their alcohol so much so that they resort to violence(to someone who is cheering for the same team no less) then they need to stop drinking. I apologize to you for bengals fans everywhere.

Good luck to you and shayne and thanks for your thoughts and statements on the matter.

[bwillycuse]

If Shayne made those easy kicks, this thread wouldn't exist. Your brother choked.

Sorry. It happens.

Should he be let go I won't be disappointed. It's easy to understand why a team would go in another direction given the circumstances. I won't raise hell if he's retained either though, at the right price. We could do much worse.

First Shanes Kicks didnt lose the game but the emotional momentum is destroyed when chip shots are missed and fumbles are made in scoring position in the first quarter.

If Graham is retained, then I will have to question management if they are really in this to win it. Or just to compete. The same goes for Bratkowski. And its starting to come up on Carson. Do they have what it takes to win. If not, figure out who can.

Id like to be convinced that that is their goal.

Graham has proven that he cant be trusted even on a 30 yard kick. You need that trust in a kicker. (Its why caldwell isnt reurning kickoffs - he isnt trusted, the same should apply to Shayne)

[ArmyBengal]

Thanks for the post. It is appreciated.

I think we can all understand that Shayne is a good person, probably a great brother and a fine human. I really like Shayne for all he does in the community and I also like what I've seen of his personality. It is all good.

The missed kicks were tough. very tough. Obviously, in any line of work, especially a public position, where physical performance is what is the measure of the job, not doing a good job is both painful and will attract unavoidable criticism, whether warranted or not.

Despite the struggles of the team, the QB and Defense as most damaging, the loss is shared by the team on the whole. It is not just the fault of one person but the teams. Even in a win, Shayne's misses would merit serious review, as would the drops of several WR's and the failings of several defensive players. If the team advances, amends could be made and jobs saved but this is not the case, and this ultimately is the business of winning, something this town has little exposure to.

Should the Bengals exercise some thought and weigh the benefits and downsides of working out a new contract with Shayne, I think most will look at it with a sour stare and wonder why. If he is not offered a new deal, most will consider the critical missed kicks and think the result is deserved. How can you offer millions to a player who has a physically basic job who cannot execute under duress?

I feel it is a shame that he missed. They were simple kicks in decent conditions and his job is ultimately the pursuit of perfection. All was well in the set-up, and only he knows what was amiss. Making the kicks would not have won the game but could have made a difference in momentum and possibly the game. Alas, what could have been...

To the idiot who jetted a bottle near you, may they slip on ice in a painful fall. There will always be the classless reactionaries. Emotions run high, and I found myself cursing not only Shayne but the team the game and outcome. That is sports.

No matter what happens, Shayne is a class person who found a way to provide for his family in a way most could never imagine. Respect for that, and good luck in the future, wherever his future may lie. And, thank you for taking the time to post a thoughtful message. You are a good sister.

GREAT POST !!!

I found myself cursing Shayne during the game. I mean CURSING with every ounce of being I could muster in a way that would send most running for cover. The first one pissed me off, but I got over it quick and the team got back in striking distance. Then the second miss came and I was so mad, my wife gathered my son and went upstairs. It's the emotion of the game.

[Ickey44]

Graham's gone. No matter how good he is off the field, his on the field performance has lacked, especially in the clutch. It's been going on a while and was even mentioned by Gibbs during the game that someone in the organization had brought up his inability to make clutch kicks during the week. So, the Bengals know and I'm sure that was the last straw.

[GoBengals!]

Graham's gone. No matter how good he is off the field, his on the field performance has lacked, especially in the clutch. It's been going on a while and was even mentioned by Gibbs during the game that someone in the organization had brought up his inability to make clutch kicks during the week. So, the Bengals know and I'm sure that was the last straw.

Too bad it took a playoff loss to realize this...

[HairOnFire]

Random thoughts...

I too typically refrain from debating a kickers mental makeup. I'm simply not quaulified to do so unless the evidence is too blatant to ignore. And on this one, I'm guessing it's suddenly become just that. And I say this not only after watching Shayne crumble under the pressure of the moment, but also because of his failure to meet with the media after the game.

Simply put, I like Shayne. I've strongly supported him in the past, and I admit I might have welcomed him back next season...had he been able to face the press after the game.

Don't get me wrong. I don't need to see the tears roll down Shaynes cheeks. And I don't need to hear his words of regret. He doesn't even have to apologize because I know he's hurting more than I am. But Shayne's failure to speak up after the game is, in my opinion, a failure on his part to fight for his own future.

It's a sad and ugly way to end things here.

[ArmyBengal]

Random thoughts...

I too typically refrain from debating a kickers mental makeup. I'm simply not quaulified to do so unless the evidence is too blatant to ignore. And on this one, I'm guessing it's suddenly become just that. And I say this not only after watching Shayne crumble under the pressure of the moment, but also because of his failure to meet with the media after the game.

Simply put, I like Shayne. I've strongly supported him in the past, and I admit I might have welcomed him back next season...had he been able to face the press after the game.

Don't get me wrong. I don't need to see the tears roll down Shaynes cheeks. And I don't need to hear his words of regret. He doesn't even have to apologize because I know he's hurting more than I am. But Shayne's failure to speak up after the game is, in my opinion, a failure on his part to fight for his own future.

It's a sad and ugly way to end things here.

Another GREAT POST !!!

[richmond_mat]

I have never had a problem with his Sister. She defends her brother, who wouldn't? I never agreed with him getting the Franchise Tag, because he has never been a complete kicker. His overall accuracy numbers can not be questioned. But, his kickoffs and clutch kicking certainly can. The biggest risk of going with a rookie kicker is if he can kick in the clutch. To me, there was no risk, because I already knew Graham couldn't.

Well I will question the legitimacy of the numbers because I have lost a lot of hair when the bengals have punted instead of trying a 45+ yard field goal. I agree that sometimes it is prudent to punt instead of trying a long field goal, but not a lot of the time.

[rwjcgc]

Interesting read.

Sidenote: the Cincinnati.com article reader comments caught me by surprise, I didn't know he had an online reputation as a "womanizer" . I always thought his off-field

life was beyond reproach.

The end for Graham? Posted by jreedy January 10th, 2010, 10:12 pm @Cincinnati.com

One of the popular questions on Twitter over the past 24 hours is if I think Shayne Graham has had his last kick with the Bengals? Being as though he is now an unrestricted free agent, it appears very likely.

Graham missed two field goals in Saturday's 24-14 AFC Wild Card loss to the Jets. That put him at 23 of 30 for the year. Graham quickly left the locker room after the game and also ducked out a side entrance on Sunday instead of answering questions.

There have been four times this year when Graham has been accessible in May when he came back to town and wanted to talk about being franchise tagged (he made $2.483 million this season), in August when he was injured, when he kicked the game-winning field goal at Cleveland (his first in four years) and when long snapper Brad St. Louis was hanging by a thread.

Graham was also accessible on July 15, the deadline day for players who received the franchise tag to agree to new contracts. However it was to talk about one of his foundation events and he became exasperated and didn't comment on the lack of a new deal. He did though rip the organization three days later on Facebook which was reported by Bleacher Report's John Breech.

Stats wise Graham's accuracy rate was high but he had as many notable game-winning misses (Pittsburgh in 2006 and Philadelphia in 2008) as makes. He will go down with four game winners, but until Cleveland in Week 4 this year his last one was against the Browns in December of 2005. His eight kickoffs for touchbacks were tied for 17th in the league. He's also been injury prone the last three seasons. As special teams coach Darrin Simmons said during the preseason after Graham injured his groin at New England: "This isn't the first time we've gone through this with Shayne."

Graham has been a great spokesman for the Freestore Foodbank and Kicks for Kids, but his lack of accountability over the weekend and at points during the season have left a lot of people disappointed. If Saturday was Graham's last game as a Bengal, it was a terrible way to go out on and off the field. It wasn't golden.

[Jet23]

I have never had a problem with his Sister. She defends her brother, who wouldn't? I never agreed with him getting the Franchise Tag, because he has never been a complete kicker. His overall accuracy numbers can not be questioned. But, his kickoffs and clutch kicking certainly can. The biggest risk of going with a rookie kicker is if he can kick in the clutch. To me, there was no risk, because I already knew Graham couldn't.

Well I will question the legitimacy of the numbers because I have lost a lot of hair when the bengals have punted instead of trying a 45+ yard field goal. I agree that sometimes it is prudent to punt instead of trying a long field goal, but not a lot of the time.

Here is what I know. Shayne Graham was a good kicker. He is simply not one anymore. Can he be one somewhere else? I serioulsy hope that he can. Dallas cut their struggling kicker, and signed the Redskin's struggling kicker. Shayne will get another shot. Perhaps all that he needs is a fresh start. Things just spun out of control after that Pittsburgh miss. Had he made that kick, who knows? Things could have clicked for him. I still think the downfall started when he began to work on this leg strength for kickoffs.

When one door closes, another one opens. This may end up being the best thing for Shayne.

[jjakq27]

I was surprised to read that he has only had 4 game winners. The big one I remember is the kick vs. the Ravens in 2004. Four is a direct result of the number of opportunities presented but that does not seem to justify the expense and the uncertainty of his kicks.

[ArmyBengal]

The big one I remember is the kick vs. the Ravens in 2004.

That was a Shayne-o-matic moment at it's finest right there. I was in a sports bar in San Antonio surrounded by Ravens fans and yelling it's over to the Ravens fans. You just knew he wasn't going to miss that kick. Good times !!!

[jjakq27]

The big one I remember is the kick vs. the Ravens in 2004.

That was a Shayne-o-matic moment at it's finest right there. I was in a sports bar in San Antonio surrounded by Ravens fans and yelling it's over to the Ravens fans. You just knew he wasn't going to miss that kick. Good times !!!

Must have been so much fun for you! It was at that point that I felt like the team/franchise had taken a giant step forward.

[ArmyBengal]

I miss those times and think we won't have them again with Shayne...