Graham Tagged

[Walrus]

If you tag T.J., you probably aren't able to re-sign Graham, Benson and Crocker. The Bengals should be able to re-sign all three for under the 10 million dollars that the Franchise Tag for T.J. would've cost against the cap. Figure that Benson and Crockers are argurably the leaders of the offense and defense, respectively, than it's a move you have to make.

Shayne Graham is #4 all-time in NFL Accuracy. He would've commanded Top 5 money had he reached free agency. Meanwhile, watch T.J. sign a contract that averages around 5-6 million per or so per year (including a prorated signing bonus). Effectively, in tagging T.J. the Bengals would have OVERPAID for his services by around 4 million or more.

For the one who said that we could've offered T.J. a 5 year contract for around 15 million, understand that T.J. admitted to holding out due to feeling underpaid at around 3 million per year, compared to his "peers".

Consider this: In the final three games of last season (all wins), T.J. had a combined 3 catches for 19 yards. That shows that the Bengals can win NFL games without him.

After learning that the Bengals choses not to tag him, T.J. told the media that he is "99.2 percent" sure that he won't be a Bengal next year. That should tell you that he really doesn't want to be here. Why make a guy the highest paid non-quarterback on the team, when he doesn't want to be here in the first place? Let alone, deceiving the fans who actually PAY his salary in thinking that he wants to be closer to his family and work out with his own people. Sadly, some fans overlook the offense's lack of sync and timing in the passing game that factored in and 0-forever start and point to his 92 catches and say he had a "good year", even though he averaged just under 10 yards a catch, lowest in the NFL amongst WR's.

All NFL teams, good or not-so-good, lose important players. Think Pittsburgh with Randle El and Joey Porter and even the Ravens with Peter Boulware, Adalius Thomas and others. The key is, having the next guy step up. In the drafting of Caldwell and Simpson, as well as developing the PS guys, you have to say the Bengals were prepared for this. They prepared the same way before Steinbach left in drafting Andrew Whitworth, a pick everybody hated at the time. Whit has done a good job replacing Steiny and it's no reason to think that at least one of the younger, more athletic, more versatile WR's will step up.

Ten years ago, an aging and increasingly malcontent Carl Pickens was named the Bengals' Franchise Player and eventually resigned with the Bengals later that offseason for 5 years and 23.5 million dollars, one of the richest contracts in the NFL for WR's at the time. He ended up catching 57 passes for 737 yards the following season and was released. The Bengals regretfully ate 8 million in signing him to play what would amount to 1 season under the new contract. Pickens was 29 years old.

Sound familiar?

Finally, a the Bengals make an offseason move that makes sense.

Good post and I agree completely -- except for the bolded portion. You are overstating things a bit. I think some fans seem to be panicking a bit when it comes to signing Benson and Crocker -- esp Benson. We'll have ample opportunity to bring in several guys to compete for the starting spot. If Benson is in the mix for that, fine, but there are veteran guys available and there will be rookies available in the draft. Our focus this offseason has to be improving the line. I don't care if we have pee wee herman at tailback and the Jonas brothers as our WR corp, we'll have an improved offense if our line can improve this year. A revamped o-line will go a long way to improve every facet of our offense, even if we have to lose our marquee receiver(s) and (mediocre) tailback.

[sparky151]

If the Bengals use the money saved by not tagging TJ for another player, they won't get a comp pick at all.

But if the Bengals sign a different FA who commands a 9.88 million dollar payday we'd all be happy, right?

If they sign more qualified free agents in total than they lose they won't get any comp picks.

Sorry, under the above scenario we'd all be happy again, right?

A trade would ensure compensation for losing a good receiver.

But the only thing that could prevent the Bengals from receiving adequate compensation are unlikely things that almost certainly won't happen but would make us all very happy if they did.

That's why tagging TJ was a no brainer.

I'm happy they didn't tag Housh. I don't have a bad thing to say about the guy and I admit the team will be immediately poorer for not having him. But for this team he's not worth what it would take to keep him.

It depends on who they sign but yes, you're right that I'd be happy with them adding 9.88 mil of free agents from other teams to what they have. I'd be even happier if they did that and had a 2009 2nd round pick to boot.

[sparky151]

If you tag T.J., you probably aren't able to re-sign Graham, Benson and Crocker. The Bengals should be able to re-sign all three for under the 10 million dollars that the Franchise Tag for T.J. would've cost against the cap. Figure that Benson and Crockers are argurably the leaders of the offense and defense, respectively, than it's a move you have to make.

Shayne Graham is #4 all-time in NFL Accuracy. He would've commanded Top 5 money had he reached free agency. Meanwhile, watch T.J. sign a contract that averages around 5-6 million per or so per year (including a prorated signing bonus). Effectively, in tagging T.J. the Bengals would have OVERPAID for his services by around 4 million or more.

For the one who said that we could've offered T.J. a 5 year contract for around 15 million, understand that T.J. admitted to holding out due to feeling underpaid at around 3 million per year, compared to his "peers".

Consider this: In the final three games of last season (all wins), T.J. had a combined 3 catches for 19 yards. That shows that the Bengals can win NFL games without him.

After learning that the Bengals choses not to tag him, T.J. told the media that he is "99.2 percent" sure that he won't be a Bengal next year. That should tell you that he really doesn't want to be here. Why make a guy the highest paid non-quarterback on the team, when he doesn't want to be here in the first place? Let alone, deceiving the fans who actually PAY his salary in thinking that he wants to be closer to his family and work out with his own people. Sadly, some fans overlook the offense's lack of sync and timing in the passing game that factored in and 0-forever start and point to his 92 catches and say he had a "good year", even though he averaged just under 10 yards a catch, lowest in the NFL amongst WR's.

All NFL teams, good or not-so-good, lose important players. Think Pittsburgh with Randle El and Joey Porter and even the Ravens with Peter Boulware, Adalius Thomas and others. The key is, having the next guy step up. In the drafting of Caldwell and Simpson, as well as developing the PS guys, you have to say the Bengals were prepared for this. They prepared the same way before Steinbach left in drafting Andrew Whitworth, a pick everybody hated at the time. Whit has done a good job replacing Steiny and it's no reason to think that at least one of the younger, more athletic, more versatile WR's will step up.

Ten years ago, an aging and increasingly malcontent Carl Pickens was named the Bengals' Franchise Player and eventually resigned with the Bengals later that offseason for 5 years and 23.5 million dollars, one of the richest contracts in the NFL for WR's at the time. He ended up catching 57 passes for 737 yards the following season and was released. The Bengals regretfully ate 8 million in signing him to play what would amount to 1 season under the new contract. Pickens was 29 years old.

Sound familiar?

Finally, a the Bengals make an offseason move that makes sense.

I don't mind TJ leaving, I do mind him leaving without compensation when it was so easy to arrange. The Bengals have 28 mil in cap space before the tag. They also need to make some RFA tenders. They would still have had plenty of money to re-sign Graham, Benson, and Crocker, pay the rookies and even pay TJ if they couldn't trade him. If they kept TJ at 10 mil and traded Chad instead, they would be fine. Remember this is a team that could have but didnt' roll over 11 mil in cap space from 2008 to 2009. Nobody should be allowed to defend the franchise using an argument about cap space. Also, it's always a good idea to ignore anything Hobson says regarding the cap. He's consistently wrong and not a reliable source on cap matters.

[Kazkal]

why not tag Benson?

Probably because Benson more then likely will be lucky to get half that this year...he very well could be looking at another "proove it deal" if he goes to another team.

[ArmyBengal]

It's hard to b*tch and moan about there not being a plan when free agency HASN'T started yet. I will be more than happy to join in the group if we save all this money and don't do anything with it other than watch Mike Brown make a deposit...

[gregstephens]

why not tag Benson?

Probably because Benson more then likely will be lucky to get half that this year...he very well could be looking at another "proove it deal" if he goes to another team.

Yeah, no kidding. Who in their right mind thinks it's a good idea to throw that kind of tag money to a guy with Benson's troubled past and ten games under his belt to us, four of which were actually the quality games a team wants in a running back?

[HairOnFire]

It depends on who they sign but yes, you're right that I'd be happy with them adding 9.88 mil of free agents from other teams to what they have.

There it is. We'll all be happier watching the Bengals divide up between several players the 9.88 million they won't be paying TJ. So that's the no brainer. Now let's see what they actually do with the money they're saving.

I'd be even happier if they did that and had a 2009 2nd round pick to boot.

Yeah, and a pony would be nice too, ehh?

The fact remains that you'd only have your 2nd round pick today if the Bengals would have traded TJ last year, costing them a year of service and ending all hopes of reaching a long-term deal. Decide for yourself what those things were worth at the time...because they sure aren't worth much today, but keep in mind the Bengals can do nothing and still salvage most of that trade value.

[sparky151]

It's hard to b*tch and moan about there not being a plan when free agency HASN'T started yet. I will be more than happy to join in the group if we save all this money and don't do anything with it other than watch Mike Brown make a deposit...

Army, what's your reaction to the team not rolling over 11 mil in cap space from 2008 to 2009? My view is that it indicates the team won't be active in FA, doesn't plan to spend the money, and is content with things as they are.

[sparky151]

It depends on who they sign but yes, you're right that I'd be happy with them adding 9.88 mil of free agents from other teams to what they have.

There it is. We'll all be happier watching the Bengals divide up between several players the 9.88 million they won't be paying TJ. So that's the no brainer. Now let's see what they actually do with the money they're saving.

I'd be even happier if they did that and had a 2009 2nd round pick to boot.

Yeah, and a pony would be nice too, ehh?

The fact remains that you'd only have your 2nd round pick today if the Bengals would have traded TJ last year, costing them a year of service and ending all hopes of reaching a long-term deal. Decide for yourself what those things were worth at the time...because they sure aren't worth much today, but keep in mind the Bengals can do nothing and still salvage most of that trade value.

If TJ had been tagged instead of Shayne, I think the team could have traded him for a 2009 second round pick. I'm basing this on the trade value of veteran receivers in recent years. I'd compare TJ to Wes Welker among receivers traded in the last few years. Welker went for a 2nd and has looked like a bargain in retrospect. A solid, move the chains guy with toughness is valuable. For a team looking to upgrade their offense, trading a draft pick for a proven veteran instead of waiting a couple years for a rookie to develop makes sense. I think we could have possibly traded TJ to San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, Philadelphia, maybe the Giants, Tampa, Tennessee, perhaps Houston, Jacksonville, etc. There is a large market for receivers and TJ will be the best on the open market.

[HAPPYJAQ]

If you tag T.J., you probably aren't able to re-sign Graham, Benson and Crocker. The Bengals should be able to re-sign all three for under the 10 million dollars that the Franchise Tag for T.J. would've cost against the cap. Figure that Benson and Crockers are argurably the leaders of the offense and defense, respectively, than it's a move you have to make.

Shayne Graham is #4 all-time in NFL Accuracy. He would've commanded Top 5 money had he reached free agency. Meanwhile, watch T.J. sign a contract that averages around 5-6 million per or so per year (including a prorated signing bonus). Effectively, in tagging T.J. the Bengals would have OVERPAID for his services by around 4 million or more.

For the one who said that we could've offered T.J. a 5 year contract for around 15 million, understand that T.J. admitted to holding out due to feeling underpaid at around 3 million per year, compared to his "peers".

Consider this: In the final three games of last season (all wins), T.J. had a combined 3 catches for 19 yards. That shows that the Bengals can win NFL games without him.

After learning that the Bengals choses not to tag him, T.J. told the media that he is "99.2 percent" sure that he won't be a Bengal next year. That should tell you that he really doesn't want to be here. Why make a guy the highest paid non-quarterback on the team, when he doesn't want to be here in the first place? Let alone, deceiving the fans who actually PAY his salary in thinking that he wants to be closer to his family and work out with his own people. Sadly, some fans overlook the offense's lack of sync and timing in the passing game that factored in and 0-forever start and point to his 92 catches and say he had a "good year", even though he averaged just under 10 yards a catch, lowest in the NFL amongst WR's.

All NFL teams, good or not-so-good, lose important players. Think Pittsburgh with Randle El and Joey Porter and even the Ravens with Peter Boulware, Adalius Thomas and others. The key is, having the next guy step up. In the drafting of Caldwell and Simpson, as well as developing the PS guys, you have to say the Bengals were prepared for this. They prepared the same way before Steinbach left in drafting Andrew Whitworth, a pick everybody hated at the time. Whit has done a good job replacing Steiny and it's no reason to think that at least one of the younger, more athletic, more versatile WR's will step up.

Ten years ago, an aging and increasingly malcontent Carl Pickens was named the Bengals' Franchise Player and eventually resigned with the Bengals later that offseason for 5 years and 23.5 million dollars, one of the richest contracts in the NFL for WR's at the time. He ended up catching 57 passes for 737 yards the following season and was released. The Bengals regretfully ate 8 million in signing him to play what would amount to 1 season under the new contract. Pickens was 29 years old.

Sound familiar?

Finally, a the Bengals make an offseason move that makes sense.

I don't mind TJ leaving, I do mind him leaving without compensation when it was so easy to arrange. The Bengals have 28 mil in cap space before the tag. They also need to make some RFA tenders. They would still have had plenty of money to re-sign Graham, Benson, and Crocker, pay the rookies and even pay TJ if they couldn't trade him. If they kept TJ at 10 mil and traded Chad instead, they would be fine. Remember this is a team that could have but didnt' roll over 11 mil in cap space from 2008 to 2009. Nobody should be allowed to defend the franchise using an argument about cap space. Also, it's always a good idea to ignore anything Hobson says regarding the cap. He's consistently wrong and not a reliable source on cap matters.

Other than actual quotes from actual players, staff, ownership or coaches on the Bengals, I don't pay Hobson much attention.

What I do know is that the Bengals are about 22 million under the cap for 2009. Real NFL trades don't work like trades in Madden; The Bengals are still responsible for what's left of his signing bonus whether he's traded or not and all remaining dollars are accelerated into the '09 number if he is traded or released, as '09 is the final capped season (Chad signed a 6 year, 35.5 million dollar deal in '06 and is signed through '11). Barring a major coup that would include the Bengals acquiring at least 2 1st rounders and maybe a mid round pick, this makes Chad virtually untradeable. Otherwise, you're asking the Bengals to eat several millions of dollars of cap room this year for a 2nd and maybe a 4th round pick.

Let's consider the math on that 22 million dollar cap room number for '09 that I mentioned before:

T.J. Franchised at roughly 10 million

The #6 and #38 picks overall and approximately 7 other picks at 4-5 million

Benson around 4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Shayne at 3-4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Crocker around 2-3 million per (including prorated bonus)

Brandon Johnson tendered at 1.5 million

Rashad Jeanty tendered at 1.5 million

That's roughly 26-29 million to retain all of these key players. Under that scenario, the Bengals would still need to sign a veteran backup QB and starting C (Assuming the Bengals draft a day 1 starter at OT in round 1 and they are able to draft a backup RB, otherwise you need FA's at those positions, too).

Then consider the bonuses that the team will have to pay out and a few million that every team stays under the cap to sign in-season replacements and you're maybe talking 29-32 million....especially with our medical staff. It's hard to figure how much the Bengals were under the cap last year if you consider that the Bengals had about 70-75 players signed to the roster at some point during last season, including Benson and Crocker who were street free agents.

As far as trading T.J., I don't believe that he would've commanded as high trade value as others might think. As far as recent trades go, a good comparison to me would be Darrell Jackson, who netted Seattle a 4th round pick. Jackson was coming off a 956 yard, 10 TD effort before he was traded. I believe that T.J. is a better player, but he is older and the Bengals would've been realistic to think that T.J. could've possibly helped them get a 3rd. They might get that anyway as a compensatory pick.

Say you tag and attempt to trade T.J. and there are no takers or the Bengals are not offered what they consider to be fair value. The Bengals would then be either stuck on the books for 10 million this year for T.J. or they could remove the tag and let him go someplace else for no compensation, anyway. The negative to that is, the Bengals would certainly lose out on signing some key players and not have any chance at landing an impact FA, as most of those guys would be likely gone by the time the trade situation for T.J. was figured out. The exact same thing happened to both New England and Kansas City last season, after the Ashanti Samuels/Jared Allen trades that left those teams with huge holes.

[Clackwoods]

If you tag T.J., you probably aren't able to re-sign Graham, Benson and Crocker. The Bengals should be able to re-sign all three for under the 10 million dollars that the Franchise Tag for T.J. would've cost against the cap. Figure that Benson and Crockers are argurably the leaders of the offense and defense, respectively, than it's a move you have to make.

Shayne Graham is #4 all-time in NFL Accuracy. He would've commanded Top 5 money had he reached free agency. Meanwhile, watch T.J. sign a contract that averages around 5-6 million per or so per year (including a prorated signing bonus). Effectively, in tagging T.J. the Bengals would have OVERPAID for his services by around 4 million or more.

For the one who said that we could've offered T.J. a 5 year contract for around 15 million, understand that T.J. admitted to holding out due to feeling underpaid at around 3 million per year, compared to his "peers".

Consider this: In the final three games of last season (all wins), T.J. had a combined 3 catches for 19 yards. That shows that the Bengals can win NFL games without him.

After learning that the Bengals choses not to tag him, T.J. told the media that he is "99.2 percent" sure that he won't be a Bengal next year. That should tell you that he really doesn't want to be here. Why make a guy the highest paid non-quarterback on the team, when he doesn't want to be here in the first place? Let alone, deceiving the fans who actually PAY his salary in thinking that he wants to be closer to his family and work out with his own people. Sadly, some fans overlook the offense's lack of sync and timing in the passing game that factored in and 0-forever start and point to his 92 catches and say he had a "good year", even though he averaged just under 10 yards a catch, lowest in the NFL amongst WR's.

All NFL teams, good or not-so-good, lose important players. Think Pittsburgh with Randle El and Joey Porter and even the Ravens with Peter Boulware, Adalius Thomas and others. The key is, having the next guy step up. In the drafting of Caldwell and Simpson, as well as developing the PS guys, you have to say the Bengals were prepared for this. They prepared the same way before Steinbach left in drafting Andrew Whitworth, a pick everybody hated at the time. Whit has done a good job replacing Steiny and it's no reason to think that at least one of the younger, more athletic, more versatile WR's will step up.

Ten years ago, an aging and increasingly malcontent Carl Pickens was named the Bengals' Franchise Player and eventually resigned with the Bengals later that offseason for 5 years and 23.5 million dollars, one of the richest contracts in the NFL for WR's at the time. He ended up catching 57 passes for 737 yards the following season and was released. The Bengals regretfully ate 8 million in signing him to play what would amount to 1 season under the new contract. Pickens was 29 years old.

Sound familiar?

Finally, a the Bengals make an offseason move that makes sense.

I like the stats from the end of the year, that was nice.

[Clackwoods]

It depends on who they sign but yes, you're right that I'd be happy with them adding 9.88 mil of free agents from other teams to what they have.

There it is. We'll all be happier watching the Bengals divide up between several players the 9.88 million they won't be paying TJ. So that's the no brainer. Now let's see what they actually do with the money they're saving.

I'd be even happier if they did that and had a 2009 2nd round pick to boot.

Yeah, and a pony would be nice too, ehh?

The fact remains that you'd only have your 2nd round pick today if the Bengals would have traded TJ last year, costing them a year of service and ending all hopes of reaching a long-term deal. Decide for yourself what those things were worth at the time...because they sure aren't worth much today, but keep in mind the Bengals can do nothing and still salvage most of that trade value.

We could have gotten that same second round pick in mid season when the season was lost, so I don't see the relevance in that point.

[Clackwoods]

It depends on who they sign but yes, you're right that I'd be happy with them adding 9.88 mil of free agents from other teams to what they have.

There it is. We'll all be happier watching the Bengals divide up between several players the 9.88 million they won't be paying TJ. So that's the no brainer. Now let's see what they actually do with the money they're saving.

I'd be even happier if they did that and had a 2009 2nd round pick to boot.

Yeah, and a pony would be nice too, ehh?

The fact remains that you'd only have your 2nd round pick today if the Bengals would have traded TJ last year, costing them a year of service and ending all hopes of reaching a long-term deal. Decide for yourself what those things were worth at the time...because they sure aren't worth much today, but keep in mind the Bengals can do nothing and still salvage most of that trade value.

If TJ had been tagged instead of Shayne, I think the team could have traded him for a 2009 second round pick. I'm basing this on the trade value of veteran receivers in recent years. I'd compare TJ to Wes Welker among receivers traded in the last few years. Welker went for a 2nd and has looked like a bargain in retrospect. A solid, move the chains guy with toughness is valuable. For a team looking to upgrade their offense, trading a draft pick for a proven veteran instead of waiting a couple years for a rookie to develop makes sense. I think we could have possibly traded TJ to San Fran, Seattle, Chicago, Philadelphia, maybe the Giants, Tampa, Tennessee, perhaps Houston, Jacksonville, etc. There is a large market for receivers and TJ will be the best on the open market.

I agree that we could have worked out a deal, but would we have gotten it done before FA began? If we weren't able to do so we have just handcuffed ourself and now we have no cash to sign impact players!

[Clackwoods]

If you tag T.J., you probably aren't able to re-sign Graham, Benson and Crocker. The Bengals should be able to re-sign all three for under the 10 million dollars that the Franchise Tag for T.J. would've cost against the cap. Figure that Benson and Crockers are argurably the leaders of the offense and defense, respectively, than it's a move you have to make.

Shayne Graham is #4 all-time in NFL Accuracy. He would've commanded Top 5 money had he reached free agency. Meanwhile, watch T.J. sign a contract that averages around 5-6 million per or so per year (including a prorated signing bonus). Effectively, in tagging T.J. the Bengals would have OVERPAID for his services by around 4 million or more.

For the one who said that we could've offered T.J. a 5 year contract for around 15 million, understand that T.J. admitted to holding out due to feeling underpaid at around 3 million per year, compared to his "peers".

Consider this: In the final three games of last season (all wins), T.J. had a combined 3 catches for 19 yards. That shows that the Bengals can win NFL games without him.

After learning that the Bengals choses not to tag him, T.J. told the media that he is "99.2 percent" sure that he won't be a Bengal next year. That should tell you that he really doesn't want to be here. Why make a guy the highest paid non-quarterback on the team, when he doesn't want to be here in the first place? Let alone, deceiving the fans who actually PAY his salary in thinking that he wants to be closer to his family and work out with his own people. Sadly, some fans overlook the offense's lack of sync and timing in the passing game that factored in and 0-forever start and point to his 92 catches and say he had a "good year", even though he averaged just under 10 yards a catch, lowest in the NFL amongst WR's.

All NFL teams, good or not-so-good, lose important players. Think Pittsburgh with Randle El and Joey Porter and even the Ravens with Peter Boulware, Adalius Thomas and others. The key is, having the next guy step up. In the drafting of Caldwell and Simpson, as well as developing the PS guys, you have to say the Bengals were prepared for this. They prepared the same way before Steinbach left in drafting Andrew Whitworth, a pick everybody hated at the time. Whit has done a good job replacing Steiny and it's no reason to think that at least one of the younger, more athletic, more versatile WR's will step up.

Ten years ago, an aging and increasingly malcontent Carl Pickens was named the Bengals' Franchise Player and eventually resigned with the Bengals later that offseason for 5 years and 23.5 million dollars, one of the richest contracts in the NFL for WR's at the time. He ended up catching 57 passes for 737 yards the following season and was released. The Bengals regretfully ate 8 million in signing him to play what would amount to 1 season under the new contract. Pickens was 29 years old.

Sound familiar?

Finally, a the Bengals make an offseason move that makes sense.

I don't mind TJ leaving, I do mind him leaving without compensation when it was so easy to arrange. The Bengals have 28 mil in cap space before the tag. They also need to make some RFA tenders. They would still have had plenty of money to re-sign Graham, Benson, and Crocker, pay the rookies and even pay TJ if they couldn't trade him. If they kept TJ at 10 mil and traded Chad instead, they would be fine. Remember this is a team that could have but didnt' roll over 11 mil in cap space from 2008 to 2009. Nobody should be allowed to defend the franchise using an argument about cap space. Also, it's always a good idea to ignore anything Hobson says regarding the cap. He's consistently wrong and not a reliable source on cap matters.

Other than actual quotes from actual players, staff, ownership or coaches on the Bengals, I don't pay Hobson much attention.

What I do know is that the Bengals are about 22 million under the cap for 2009. Real NFL trades don't work like trades in Madden; The Bengals are still responsible for what's left of his signing bonus whether he's traded or not and all remaining dollars are accelerated into the '09 number if he is traded or released, as '09 is the final capped season (Chad signed a 6 year, 35.5 million dollar deal in '06 and is signed through '11). Barring a major coup that would include the Bengals acquiring at least 2 1st rounders and maybe a mid round pick, this makes Chad virtually untradeable. Otherwise, you're asking the Bengals to eat several millions of dollars of cap room this year for a 2nd and maybe a 4th round pick.

Let's consider the math on that 22 million dollar cap room number for '09 that I mentioned before:

T.J. Franchised at roughly 10 million

The #6 and #38 picks overall and approximately 7 other picks at 4-5 million

Benson around 4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Shayne at 3-4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Crocker around 2-3 million per (including prorated bonus)

Brandon Johnson tendered at 1.5 million

Rashad Jeanty tendered at 1.5 million

That's roughly 26-29 million to retain all of these key players. Under that scenario, the Bengals would still need to sign a veteran backup QB and starting C (Assuming the Bengals draft a day 1 starter at OT in round 1 and they are able to draft a backup RB, otherwise you need FA's at those positions, too).

Then consider the bonuses that the team will have to pay out and a few million that every team stays under the cap to sign in-season replacements and you're maybe talking 29-32 million....especially with our medical staff. It's hard to figure how much the Bengals were under the cap last year if you consider that the Bengals had about 70-75 players signed to the roster at some point during last season, including Benson and Crocker who were street free agents.

As far as trading T.J., I don't believe that he would've commanded as high trade value as others might think. As far as recent trades go, a good comparison to me would be Darrell Jackson, who netted Seattle a 4th round pick. Jackson was coming off a 956 yard, 10 TD effort before he was traded. I believe that T.J. is a better player, but he is older and the Bengals would've been realistic to think that T.J. could've possibly helped them get a 3rd. They might get that anyway as a compensatory pick.

Say you tag and attempt to trade T.J. and there are no takers or the Bengals are not offered what they consider to be fair value. The Bengals would then be either stuck on the books for 10 million this year for T.J. or they could remove the tag and let him go someplace else for no compensation, anyway. The negative to that is, the Bengals would certainly lose out on signing some key players and not have any chance at landing an impact FA, as most of those guys would be likely gone by the time the trade situation for T.J. was figured out. The exact same thing happened to both New England and Kansas City last season, after the Ashanti Samuels/Jared Allen trades that left those teams with huge holes.

Good post, but Darrel Jackson was coming off an injury plagued year and he was Older than TJ is now. Plus his numbers weren't as good

[sparky151]

Other than actual quotes from actual players, staff, ownership or coaches on the Bengals, I don't pay Hobson much attention.

What I do know is that the Bengals are about 22 million under the cap for 2009. Real NFL trades don't work like trades in Madden; The Bengals are still responsible for what's left of his signing bonus whether he's traded or not and all remaining dollars are accelerated into the '09 number if he is traded or released, as '09 is the final capped season (Chad signed a 6 year, 35.5 million dollar deal in '06 and is signed through '11). Barring a major coup that would include the Bengals acquiring at least 2 1st rounders and maybe a mid round pick, this makes Chad virtually untradeable. Otherwise, you're asking the Bengals to eat several millions of dollars of cap room this year for a 2nd and maybe a 4th round pick.

Let's consider the math on that 22 million dollar cap room number for '09 that I mentioned before:

T.J. Franchised at roughly 10 million

The #6 and #38 picks overall and approximately 7 other picks at 4-5 million

Benson around 4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Shayne at 3-4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Crocker around 2-3 million per (including prorated bonus)

Brandon Johnson tendered at 1.5 million

Rashad Jeanty tendered at 1.5 million

That's roughly 26-29 million to retain all of these key players. Under that scenario, the Bengals would still need to sign a veteran backup QB and starting C (Assuming the Bengals draft a day 1 starter at OT in round 1 and they are able to draft a backup RB, otherwise you need FA's at those positions, too).

Then consider the bonuses that the team will have to pay out and a few million that every team stays under the cap to sign in-season replacements and you're maybe talking 29-32 million....especially with our medical staff. It's hard to figure how much the Bengals were under the cap last year if you consider that the Bengals had about 70-75 players signed to the roster at some point during last season, including Benson and Crocker who were street free agents.

As far as trading T.J., I don't believe that he would've commanded as high trade value as others might think. As far as recent trades go, a good comparison to me would be Darrell Jackson, who netted Seattle a 4th round pick. Jackson was coming off a 956 yard, 10 TD effort before he was traded. I believe that T.J. is a better player, but he is older and the Bengals would've been realistic to think that T.J. could've possibly helped them get a 3rd. They might get that anyway as a compensatory pick.

Say you tag and attempt to trade T.J. and there are no takers or the Bengals are not offered what they consider to be fair value. The Bengals would then be either stuck on the books for 10 million this year for T.J. or they could remove the tag and let him go someplace else for no compensation, anyway. The negative to that is, the Bengals would certainly lose out on signing some key players and not have any chance at landing an impact FA, as most of those guys would be likely gone by the time the trade situation for T.J. was figured out. The exact same thing happened to both New England and Kansas City last season, after the Ashanti Samuels/Jared Allen trades that left those teams with huge holes.

The team still has TJ under contract until the 26th. They are free to give McGuire, TJ's agent, permission to discuss tag and trade scenarios with other teams. The Bengals themselves are also free to call other teams, though that might require more energy than they seem to have. The point is that there will be a market for TJ and the team could have benefitted from it in addition to TJ himself.

Trading Chad will of course involve a cap hit for bonus acceleration but is a net saver of several million in 2009. If you use Brandt's cap figures, the team was 28 mil under before the tag. If TJ is traded, his cap hit for 2009 is 0 since there is no signing bonus to accelerate and his salary transfers to his new team, though they'll immediately sign him to a long term deal.

The Bengals were 11 million under the cap at the end of last season. They didn't roll it over though they easily could have. Let's do some math here.

Maximum cap space before additional cuts or signings: 39 mil

pocketed by Mike Brown: 11 mil

Tag for TJ 10 mil.

Market deal for Graham 3.5 mil

Tenders for Jeanty and Brandon Johnson 3 mil

Crocker 2 mil

Benson 2.5 mil or let him walk

Trade or untag TJ: 10 mil gained

Trade Chad around 5 mil gained

Cut Levi about half mil gained in cap space. Saves team over 5 mil in cash

Cut Dexter Jackson save 1.2 mil

Rookie pool: Max of around 7 mil but they will take place of vets. Net cost probably less than 3 mil

Injury pad: This is a scam used by Hobson. Most teams don't reserve cap space for replacement players, they create space inseason as needed to hire replacements. Carson's salary is a likely source of cap space or at least would be on a savvier team.

So looking at this suppose we tag TJ but can't trade him. If we trade Chad instead and cut Levi and Dexter, we'd have about 11 mil to add free agents. If we get our tag money back from a trade of TJ and keep Chad it would be 16 mil. Even with 11 mil, that's enough to add Jason Brown plus a veteran backup QB, plus another veteran player, either a nickel back or linebacker. If we could trade TJ, we'd have cap space for a couple of top tier free agents.

[Clackwoods]

Other than actual quotes from actual players, staff, ownership or coaches on the Bengals, I don't pay Hobson much attention.

What I do know is that the Bengals are about 22 million under the cap for 2009. Real NFL trades don't work like trades in Madden; The Bengals are still responsible for what's left of his signing bonus whether he's traded or not and all remaining dollars are accelerated into the '09 number if he is traded or released, as '09 is the final capped season (Chad signed a 6 year, 35.5 million dollar deal in '06 and is signed through '11). Barring a major coup that would include the Bengals acquiring at least 2 1st rounders and maybe a mid round pick, this makes Chad virtually untradeable. Otherwise, you're asking the Bengals to eat several millions of dollars of cap room this year for a 2nd and maybe a 4th round pick.

Let's consider the math on that 22 million dollar cap room number for '09 that I mentioned before:

T.J. Franchised at roughly 10 million

The #6 and #38 picks overall and approximately 7 other picks at 4-5 million

Benson around 4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Shayne at 3-4 million per (including prorated bonus)

Crocker around 2-3 million per (including prorated bonus)

Brandon Johnson tendered at 1.5 million

Rashad Jeanty tendered at 1.5 million

That's roughly 26-29 million to retain all of these key players. Under that scenario, the Bengals would still need to sign a veteran backup QB and starting C (Assuming the Bengals draft a day 1 starter at OT in round 1 and they are able to draft a backup RB, otherwise you need FA's at those positions, too).

Then consider the bonuses that the team will have to pay out and a few million that every team stays under the cap to sign in-season replacements and you're maybe talking 29-32 million....especially with our medical staff. It's hard to figure how much the Bengals were under the cap last year if you consider that the Bengals had about 70-75 players signed to the roster at some point during last season, including Benson and Crocker who were street free agents.

As far as trading T.J., I don't believe that he would've commanded as high trade value as others might think. As far as recent trades go, a good comparison to me would be Darrell Jackson, who netted Seattle a 4th round pick. Jackson was coming off a 956 yard, 10 TD effort before he was traded. I believe that T.J. is a better player, but he is older and the Bengals would've been realistic to think that T.J. could've possibly helped them get a 3rd. They might get that anyway as a compensatory pick.

Say you tag and attempt to trade T.J. and there are no takers or the Bengals are not offered what they consider to be fair value. The Bengals would then be either stuck on the books for 10 million this year for T.J. or they could remove the tag and let him go someplace else for no compensation, anyway. The negative to that is, the Bengals would certainly lose out on signing some key players and not have any chance at landing an impact FA, as most of those guys would be likely gone by the time the trade situation for T.J. was figured out. The exact same thing happened to both New England and Kansas City last season, after the Ashanti Samuels/Jared Allen trades that left those teams with huge holes.

The team still has TJ under contract until the 26th. They are free to give McGuire, TJ's agent, permission to discuss tag and trade scenarios with other teams. The Bengals themselves are also free to call other teams, though that might require more energy than they seem to have. The point is that there will be a market for TJ and the team could have benefitted from it in addition to TJ himself.

Trading Chad will of course involve a cap hit for bonus acceleration but is a net saver of several million in 2009. If you use Brandt's cap figures, the team was 28 mil under before the tag. If TJ is traded, his cap hit for 2009 is 0 since there is no signing bonus to accelerate and his salary transfers to his new team, though they'll immediately sign him to a long term deal.

The Bengals were 11 million under the cap at the end of last season. They didn't roll it over though they easily could have. Let's do some math here.

Maximum cap space before additional cuts or signings: 39 mil

pocketed by Mike Brown: 11 mil

Tag for TJ 10 mil.

Market deal for Graham 3.5 mil

Tenders for Jeanty and Brandon Johnson 3 mil

Crocker 2 mil

Benson 2.5 mil or let him walk

Trade or untag TJ: 10 mil gained

Trade Chad around 5 mil gained

Cut Levi about half mil gained in cap space. Saves team over 5 mil in cash

Cut Dexter Jackson save 1.2 mil

Rookie pool: Max of around 7 mil but they will take place of vets. Net cost probably less than 3 mil

Injury pad: This is a scam used by Hobson. Most teams don't reserve cap space for replacement players, they create space inseason as needed to hire replacements. Carson's salary is a likely source of cap space or at least would be on a savvier team.

So looking at this suppose we tag TJ but can't trade him. If we trade Chad instead and cut Levi and Dexter, we'd have about 11 mil to add free agents. If we get our tag money back from a trade of TJ and keep Chad it would be 16 mil. Even with 11 mil, that's enough to add Jason Brown plus a veteran backup QB, plus another veteran player, either a nickel back or linebacker. If we could trade TJ, we'd have cap space for a couple of top tier free agents.

Tag and trade options? have you been in a whole for the last two weeks? Shayne Graham has been tagged which means TJ is gone.

[BengalPimp]

What? Graham? Damn, I just lost a bet with a buddy, I bet $20 Mike Brown would franchise Ghiaciuc !

Mike Brown you owe me $20....you flippin moron.

[ArmyBengal]

Tag and trade STILL requires a willing participant. You are banking the Bengals find a team that will offer what they are asking. Once TJ signs the tender, it's guaranteed. There's no pulling it unless you sign him to a long term deal by the July 15th deadline. So placing the tag on TJ in the attempts of trading him is still viewed as to risky once he signs it and the money becomes guaranteed.

[sparky151]

Tag and trade STILL requires a willing participant. You are banking the Bengals find a team that will offer what they are asking. Once TJ signs the tender, it's guaranteed. There's no pulling it unless you sign him to a long term deal by the July 15th deadline. So placing the tag on TJ in the attempts of trading him is still viewed as to risky once he signs it and the money becomes guaranteed.

Yes, but the team had the option of letting TJ find a market by talking to other teams early. While TJ goes around doing radio interviews, his agent could talk to the GMs of other teams with the Bengals permission. My view is that TJ will get multiple offers. He will accept one of them and the other teams will be disappointed. Probably enough so that they would have been willing to part with a draft pick for the top receiver on the market. In any event, it was dumb to use the tag on Monday when Thursday is the deadline.

[ArmyBengal]

Sparky, I get what you are saying and agree with an earlier post of yours in that I will be pissed off as well, if they don't use the money to do more to improve the team...

[Jet23]

It's hard to b*tch and moan about there not being a plan when free agency HASN'T started yet. I will be more than happy to join in the group if we save all this money and don't do anything with it other than watch Mike Brown make a deposit...

It's quite EASY to b*tch and moan when the man running the Organization has been a complete failure for nearly TWO decades. Are you ACTUALLY predicting that Mike Brown is going to do anything other than make a few token moves in the hopes that the sheep continue to rotate the PBS turnstiles?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he signs Ray Lewis and trades for Anquan FREAKING Boldin, but we BOTH know that isn't going to happen. Have YOU given this speech each of the last 17 years ONLY to be disappointed?????

[ArmyBengal]

It's hard to b*tch and moan about there not being a plan when free agency HASN'T started yet. I will be more than happy to join in the group if we save all this money and don't do anything with it other than watch Mike Brown make a deposit...

It's quite EASY to b*tch and moan when the man running the Organization has been a complete failure for nearly TWO decades. Are you ACTUALLY predicting that Mike Brown is going to do anything other than make a few token moves in the hopes that the sheep continue to rotate the PBS turnstiles?

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he signs Ray Lewis and trades for Anquan FREAKING Boldin, but we BOTH know that isn't going to happen. Have YOU given this speech each of the last 17 years ONLY to be disappointed?????

Why keep b*tching about Mike Brown with every breath you can muster ?? Is it going to change anything ?? I'm not saying I like the man in ANY shape, form, or fashion. I think he's the bane of our existance as fans of this team, but I, nor any other fan, is going to change that.

I'm not predicting Mike Brown is going to do a damn thing, nor have I. What I do think about, as a fan, is what the organization CAN do in order to improve the team. That in and of itself means about as much to Mike Brown as my opinion about global warming. I know that going in, but I'm a fan and this is what we do when we support our team. Think of ways things can improve, talk about them, and then hope and pray something along those lines happen. Chances are they won't but this is where we are right at this moment.

I have hope EVERY offseason and hope that the organization has a moment of clarity in some moves that could be made. It just so happens that yes, disappointment HAS come more often then not, but once again, it's what fans do. I refuse to just sit back and b*tch and moan all day every day about something that is beyond my control. If that's you, maybe being miserable suits you, I don't know, but good luck with that !!!

[Baraka]

^^^^

thank you army. it amazes me how so many people play the victim, instead of just being a fan, these boards are for discussions about all the ins and outs of our favorite franchise, as poorly run as it may be. it's pointless to hijack every thread with "mike brown sucks", if that's all you want to talk about i believe there are more than a couple sites that will surely oblige that kind of self-flagellation.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

^^^^

thank you army. it amazes me how so many people play the victim, instead of just being a fan, these boards are for discussions about all the ins and outs of our favorite franchise, as poorly run as it may be. it's pointless to hijack every thread with "mike brown sucks", if that's all you want to talk about i believe there are more than a couple sites that will surely oblige that kind of self-flagellation.

Victim? Huh?

The point is to call these things out AS THEY HAPPEN ahead of time, versus wondering why they finished 7-9 or 4-12 or start off 1-6 again next year, and people start blaming it on injuries or dumb luck, or wonder why Carson has no one to protect him or throw to next year. "Well if our first round pick didn't get injured and Chad wasn't hurt then they'd be winners" etc...,

No, they don't do the things in the off-season to improve, and the most active off-seasons were prior to the 2005 year when Marvin came in with a lot of pull to get people he needed (see Deltha, Thorton, Graham and James trades/pick-ups, etc..., etc...,).

Tagging "a kicker" is not unheard of, but this team can't hold onto their best position players because they want out, so they should be able to sign a kicker ahead of time without going there, ecspecially for a kicker they picked upon waivers. Why are they worried about slightly over-paying proven players to stay here, if they're shoving million under the mattress every year?

I applaud the increase in player payroll the last few years, at least up until 2006 when they started reverting back to their old ways, but they still don't spend it wisely, make timely decisions on personnel, have bad drafts, don't do anything creative or proactive, and lack any sort of effort or desire to get better, and take advantage of having a rare QB talent. It seems people like yourself are "just happy to have NFL football here in town." It's not real NFL football!! This is nothing like what the better teams and franchises experience. You don't know what that's like! 2005 is what it's like, and people went nuts for it here.

I am not worried about the $ they are paying Graham, it's the fact they just let TJ go without a fuss and are once again caught up in retaining and paying bit players and special teamers, versus executing any sort of plan or seeing that their most productive players are treated well and rewarded.

[HairOnFire]

It seems people like yourself are "just happy to have NFL football here in town."

Get over yourself, pinprick.