Former Bengals

[HairOnFire]

Hope springs eternal among (most) Bengals fans.

Oh, hell no.

No matter how bad they do in any season, Bengals fans are always finding reasons to believe by May at the latest.

I'll argue most Bengal fans don't believe in anything related to this team. They don't believe it has much of a future, they don't believe a word uttered by anyone associated with the franchise, and they most certainly don't believe anything will change.

Even after the first couple games, we found things to make us think prosperity was just around the corner.

I'll have to take your word for it because I retreated to the comfort and safety of my bunker after watching week two. No kidding, I packed up the mini-helmets, put away the sweatshirts and tees, stopped posting, et cetera. And THIS was after taking a fairly lengthy sabbatical during the off-season that was prompted almost entirely by my disgust with all things Chad.

Oh well. I suppose you can call us homers and idiots and all that. But embodiments of a culture of losing? I'm not seeing it.

Wouldn't it be better if the whole homer and idiot thing was implied, but not said?

As for the culture of losing, I sometimes have to remind myself this is supposed to be fun. Too often it isn't, and that's true for all of the million reasons that have made the Bengals relationship with it's fanbase and home city rather toxic. And yeah, I think it's that constant toxic quality that begins to define the culture surrounding this team.

[HoosierCat]

I don't think we really disagree on the culture thing, derek. Re the players, obviously there's no connection between what happened in 1992 and 2008. It's just that when I hear "culture of losing" related to the Bengals, I think of something analogous to "corporate culture." To put it in terms Hair used years ago on another board, in one of his rare and quite accurate critiques of Mike Brown, management has created a "toxic work atmosphere" in Cincy. And like a slow-acting acid it eats at everyone who walks in the door.

[HoosierCat]

Hope springs eternal among (most) Bengals fans.

Oh, hell no.

Hey, feel free to go look up the season predictions thread and come back and tell me how down on the team everyone here was.

As for the culture of losing, I sometimes have to remind myself this is supposed to be fun. Too often it isn't, and that's true for all of the million reasons that have made the Bengals relationship with it's fanbase and home city rather toxic. And yeah, I think it's that constant toxic quality that begins to define the culture surrounding this team.

Funny you should use the word "toxic" considering my last post. You once applied it to a much different person.

[gregstephens]

Hope springs eternal among (most) Bengals fans.

Oh, hell no.

No matter how bad they do in any season, Bengals fans are always finding reasons to believe by May at the latest.

I'll argue most Bengal fans don't believe in anything related to this team. They don't believe it has much of a future, they don't believe a word uttered by anyone associated with the franchise, and they most certainly don't believe anything will change.

Even after the first couple games, we found things to make us think prosperity was just around the corner.

I'll have to take your word for it because I retreated to the comfort and safety of my bunker after watching week two. No kidding, I packed up the mini-helmets, put away the sweatshirts and tees, stopped posting, et cetera. And THIS was after taking a fairly lengthy sabbatical during the off-season that was prompted almost entirely by my disgust with all things Chad.

Oh well. I suppose you can call us homers and idiots and all that. But embodiments of a culture of losing? I'm not seeing it.

Wouldn't it be better if the whole homer and idiot thing was implied, but not said?

As for the culture of losing, I sometimes have to remind myself this is supposed to be fun. Too often it isn't, and that's true for all of the million reasons that have made the Bengals relationship with it's fanbase and home city rather toxic. And yeah, I think it's that constant toxic quality that begins to define the culture surrounding this team.

You don't pay much attention, do you? Every year during training camp it is the same thing among the majority of Bengals' fans. Talk of how this is our year. Excitement about some draft pick/free agent pick-up. Confidence that a new coordinator is going to right the ship. Then the Bengals usually go out and win two or three of the four pre-season games while Pittsburgh and/or Baltimore struggle and we think the division is ours for the taking. Every year this fanbase demonstrates hope (and perhaps irrationally at that) and belief that THIS could be the year the Great Pumpkin finally arises out of the pumpkin patch.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I don't think we really disagree on the culture thing, derek. Re the players, obviously there's no connection between what happened in 1992 and 2008. It's just that when I hear "culture of losing" related to the Bengals, I think of something analogous to "corporate culture." To put it in terms Hair used years ago on another board, in one of his rare and quite accurate critiques of Mike Brown, management has created a "toxic work atmosphere" in Cincy. And like a slow-acting acid it eats at everyone who walks in the door.

Absolutely. When you continue to have the same old problems, you get the same old mistakes.

But on the culture of losing thing - I do believe there's something there, but for different reasons. The players currently in the NFL were probably NFL fans when they were growing up, and for that entire time, the Bengals were a joke. They're still a joke. So the vets you get are, by definition, those willing to sign with a joke of a team. How many times have we heard that good free agents simply won't come to Cincinnati? It shouldn't be surprising that the kind of guy who's allergic to losing simply doesn't come to Cincinnati, meaning the vets we get aren't the ones we want. I think we get too many losers. And I think that sort of environment breeds a certain ambivalence to losing for rookies. It's hard for the young players to change things when you don't have the right vets.

The only way to change that is to blow the thing up, get rid of the losers, and start from scratch. Marvin tried that in 2003, and it looked like it was working, but then Mikey went back to his old losing ways, throwing Marvin under the bus in the process. And this is what we get.

[DesperateDerelict]

There's certainly something lingering through all those years: our old pal Mike Brown and the rest of the family front office.

I agree completely... but that is something very different from saying that there is a culture of losing with the players. The fact that there is no consistent plan with which to create a quality product on the field is very different than saying that the players on this team assume they will lose simply because of the colors they are wearing. Yes... there are plenty of reasons that the team has been bad for so long. But the suggestion that there is an aura of losing in the locker room is just silly.

WTF?? How do you propose to keep consistent and long-term FO blunders out of the fragile locker room persona?

......But I don't believe for a second that the players think that they can't win because they lack the long tradition of winning that exists in some other franchises. And that's really all I was saying. My last post was just an attempt to defend myself from DesperateDerelict claiming that my earlier post was "the stupidest thing posted on the forum in Mike Brown's lifetime."

Sorry, Derek, outside of some of Shula's masterpieces and occasional brain-farts from yours truly (and others), I think to state that someone doesn't buy that the Bengals have "a culture of losing" is like buying that 'the economy isn't in trouble - this is just a "temporary set-back"....it's 100% inaccurate (sorry for the name calling earlier).

.... But embodiments of a culture of losing? I'm not seeing it.....As far as I can tell, when the vast majority of Bengal fans think of their team, they picture a team that tops out at about 4 wins a season.

You too, Hoosier???

Haven't you guys ever been in a locker-room???

There is a HUGE difference between trying really hard and believing you'll win.

There is a HUGE difference between overcoming a setback and believing in bad luck.

There is a HUGE difference between being distracted and totally focused

There is a HUGE difference between accepting a loss and not accepting one.

How can you truly believe that the locker-room isn't affected by the fan's opinions or faith in the front office?? Do I believe most of the players and coaches want to win, and try to win? Of course. However, with the current parity in the NFL there's very little margin for error, and (as Napoleon said) "In war, three-quarters turns on morale; the balance of manpower and materials counts only for the remaining quarter."

I'll state it plainly - the Cincinnati Bengals have a seriously depressing culture of losing, from top to bottom.

Can it ever be turned around?? Sure - but it takes a long time and major changes - not the influx of a couple of draft picks and an over-valued free agent or two. The changes need to be utterly complete, convincing, and impact the entire organization.

As it stands now, can you honestly you see them succeeding on a consistent basis???? There's a reason my brothers and I have gone from 8 to 6 to 4 to sharing 2 season tickets . . . and it's not the economy.

[HairOnFire]

To put it in terms Hair used years ago on another board, in one of his rare and quite accurate critiques of Mike Brown, management has created a "toxic work atmosphere" in Cincy. And like a slow-acting acid it eats at everyone who walks in the door.

Years ago?

So, my habit of openly criticizing Mike Brown didn't start last week?

Well, what a relief.

Still, I can't seem to bring myself to the point where I blame him for the weather, the effects of gravity, or for the color fuscia. So I guess I'm left to criticize the old goat when I feel it's just, and defend the undefendable if I feel some of you are guilty of overreaching.

Seems fair to me.

[HairOnFire]

Can it ever be turned around?? Sure - but it takes a long time and major changes - not the influx of a couple of draft picks and an over-valued free agent or two. The changes need to be utterly complete, convincing, and impact the entire organization.

To be perfectly honest, I've got growing doubts things will ever turn around.

I'm not joking.

At best, the relationship between Cincinnati and the Bengals franchise has approached the tipping point where things are broken beyond repair.

At worst, they're already well past the point of no return.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

At best, the relationship between Cincinnati and the Bengals franchise has approached the tipping point where things are broken beyond repair.

One repair would be getting anyone whose name is or was Brown, or is married or otherwise related to someone whose name is or has been Brown, completely removed from running the team.

Mikey and company needs to do the following:

Hire somebody to run the team. Give them control. Give them a real non-player-salary budget. Sit in the owner's box and cheer. Show up for photo ops. Smile. Sign the checks. Stop claiming to know anything about the actual game of football.

I'm convinced the team will never win consistently until that happens.

[HoosierCat]

How can you truly believe that the locker-room isn't affected by the fan's opinions or faith in the front office??

Well, let's unpack that a bit. Regarding the opinion of Bengals fandom, again, where were you all offseason when many of us believed this team had playoff potential, and said as much? How much impact did that have? Obviously, not a whole hell of a lot. And if the Bengals locker room is hearing it now from the fans, well, precisely what should they expect?

As for faith in the front office, I strongly suspect that fans' opinion about Mikey & Co. are far, far less important -- if they are important at all -- than players' own interactions with the FO and what they hear from their friends elsewhere around the league about how other teams operate. In short, the players don't need us to tell them team management sucks.

[HairOnFire]

At best, the relationship between Cincinnati and the Bengals franchise has approached the tipping point where things are broken beyond repair.

One repair would be getting anyone whose name is or was Brown, or is married or otherwise related to someone whose name is or has been Brown, completely removed from running the team.

I'll bite.

How do you think we can force Brown to give up control of his family business? By buying a ticket so you can boo during games? Or perhaps by yelling at your television? Or how about pledging to never buy another Bengal hat or T-shirt? Or maybe you spend years spewing negativity on an internet message board?

Don't get me wrong, I love the occasional pointless gesture as much as the next guy. But what makes anyone think they're helping bring change to the Bengals by adding their own caustic yammerings to an already toxic stew?

[HoosierCat]

Speaking of former Bengals, is Shaun Smith an a$$hole?

(for reference purposes: does a bear sh*t in the woods?)

[Ickey44]

At best, the relationship between Cincinnati and the Bengals franchise has approached the tipping point where things are broken beyond repair.

One repair would be getting anyone whose name is or was Brown, or is married or otherwise related to someone whose name is or has been Brown, completely removed from running the team.

I'll bite.

How do you think we can force Brown to give up control of his family business? By buying a ticket so you can boo during games? Or perhaps by yelling at your television? Or how about pledging to never buy another Bengal hat or T-shirt? Or maybe you spend years spewing negativity on an internet message board?

Don't get me wrong, I love the occasional pointless gesture as much as the next guy. But what makes anyone think they're helping bring change to the Bengals by adding their own caustic yammerings to an already toxic stew?

I guess it makes some people feel better to think that they're making a difference. If they believe they are, who are we to tell them they're not?

[derekshank]

How can you truly believe that the locker-room isn't affected by the fan's opinions or faith in the front office??

Well... lets take a look at the two teams you previously mentioned as having a culture of winning.

The Colts:

After moving to Indianapolis, the Colts had more than a decade that very closely resembled that of the Bengals. Most seasons ended 3-13. A few times they managed 9 wins, but only one playoff appearance under the magic of Jim Harbaugh - and then Peyton Manning gets drafted. Clearly the fans in Indianapolis had no reason to believe in a culture of winning - but the players did. Why? Because they had nothing to do with the franchise in the 80's and 90's.

The Patriots:

The Patriots were founded in 1960. They did nothing to speak of until their magic year in 1985 when they made it to the Super Bowl only to be humiliated 46-10. Then they went on a streak that rivals that of the Bengals 90's record. They brought in Parcells in '93. Made it to another Super Bowl... and then Parcells moved on to the Jets and the keys were handed to Belichick. Their culture of winning was created by two men... not a fan base that kept on believing - because prior to those two men, there was nothing to believe in.

And possibly the best example... the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Perhaps no team in NFL history had a more obvious culture of losing than this team. I think they had a total of 2 winning seasons in their history prior to Tony Dungy... including 14 straight losing seasons directly prior to his hiring. Then they had 5 playoff appearances in the next 6 years. Why? Because the fanbase decided that it was a winning franchise? No because men like Tony Dungy said that team history is bulls**t.

The Bengals are no different. The men in that locker room might believe they suck and know they are fighting uphill every week... but it isn't because of some long standing culture of losing. It is because the team is poorly managed and the locker room is full of me first people.

So say I'm an idiot if you want... but I'm betting Carson Palmer doesn't view the team the same way you do. He didn't sign a long term contract with the Bengals knowing that compiling stats was merely polishing the brass on the Titanic. He wants a championship, and saw no reason why it couldn't be here just as easily as anywhere else.

If he's wrong, it's because of Mike Brown - not because of the history. It just seems like you've got the cart before the horse. It's not a culture of losing that causes this team to suck. It's Mike Brown that has created a team that loses. You believe he has created a culture of losing. I believe that if the right men have power, this team can create a culture of winning just as well as the three teams mentioned above.

[chandon]

Can it ever be turned around?? Sure - but it takes a long time and major changes - not the influx of a couple of draft picks and an over-valued free agent or two. The changes need to be utterly complete, convincing, and impact the entire organization.

To be perfectly honest, I've got growing doubts things will ever turn around.

I'm not joking.

At best, the relationship between Cincinnati and the Bengals franchise has approached the tipping point where things are broken beyond repair.

At worst, they're already well past the point of no return.

I have to agree Hair. I cannot see things getting any better, because the one constant has never changed...and won't change for the forseeable future - namely Mike Brown.

MB doesn't have or breed a winning culture. And if you don't have a winning culture, then you have a losing culture. There are no grey areas. And because Mike is only interested in $$ and not in winning rings, that necessary fire and desire to win is not there. That apathetic and lacklustre attidude is passed down through the FO to the coaches and untimately to the players. It can't be helped...it's inevitable! That is why every FA and draft pick in the world won't make a shread of difference, because it is how you USE those tools which is important...not the tools themselves. And if you pick up a really good player in any position and don't inspire him to win then you will metamorphasize that player into someone who doesn't give a f*** because no one else does! Just play for the paycheque and go home.

What I don't understand however, is Mikey's lack of understanding that winning teams = more $$!! How long does he think the current fans will continue to purchase season tickets, just to be embarrassed and humiliated by terrible football?

I believe what we are seeing now is the slide into apathy

[DesperateDerelict]

How can you truly believe that the locker-room isn't affected by the fan's opinions or faith in the front office??

Well... lets take a look at the two teams you previously mentioned as having a culture of winning.

The Colts: ..... Clearly the fans in Indianapolis had no reason to believe in a culture of winning - but the players did. Why? Because they had nothing to do with the franchise in the 80's and 90's.

The Patriots: ... and then Parcells moved on to the Jets and the keys were handed to Belichick. Their culture of winning was created by two men... not a fan base that kept on believing - because prior to those two men, there was nothing to believe in.

the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Perhaps no team in NFL history had a more obvious culture of losing than this team. I think they had a total of 2 winning seasons in their history prior to Tony Dungy... including 14 straight losing seasons directly prior to his hiring. Then they had 5 playoff appearances in the next 6 years. Why? Because the fanbase decided that it was a winning franchise? No because men like Tony Dungy said that team history is bulls**t.

The Bengals are no different. The men in that locker room might believe they suck and know they are fighting uphill every week... but it isn't because of some long standing culture of losing. It is because the team is poorly managed and the locker room is full of me first people.

I believe that if the right men have power, this team can create a culture of winning just as well as the three teams mentioned above.

Derek, we'll have to agree to disagree. when you say:

The men in that locker room might believe they suck and know they are fighting uphill every week...

that, to me, is an indication of a losing culture. In the NFL, if you ain't winnin' your losin'.

Let's look at our 3 test cases compared to the Bengals:

New England Patriots

- did only 'ok' in the 90's - 1 div crown under Tuna ('96) and 1 w/ Pete Carroll ('97)

- Tuna was only 34-34 as coach, Pete Carroll had losing record 2 out of 3 years

- LOTS of player misbehavior & prima donnas

- in 2000 hired Bill Belichick as HC & Scott Pioli as personnel director

- in 2000 they cleaned house - position coaches, co-ordinators, etc

- promoted Scott Pioli in 2001 to head of NFL operations - changed over scouting dept & FO

- since then, have averaged 11 wins per season

Indianapolis Colts

- Jim Irsay takes over after 20 years of misery in 1996

- this was the franchise nobody wanted to be drafted by (Jeff George)

- Hires Bill & Chris Polian in 97

- Polians clean house ("the Axe-Men")

- Hires Jim Mora to instill discipline, then Tony Dungy to take them to next level

- 7 straight playoff appearances, and only missed once in last 10 years

Tampa Bay Bucs

- Glazers overpay for almost bankrupt team

- install new F.O. personnel

- immediately fire Sam Wyche & crew and hire Tony Dungy

- make playoffs 5 of next 7 years on the strength of "D"

- replace Tony Dungy with Jon Gruden in 2002 (again over-paying)

- Super Bowl winners after 2002, playoffs in '03

- replace GM McKay (who fought w/ Gruden) with GM Allen

- kind of mediocre now (every other year)

The common area's - the fans had pretty much given up on the teams (even in Boston where sports is a religion), they had little or no direction, and a comprehensive change took place in both the front office and coaching staffs. They drafted franchise players at the first opportunity (Manning, Brady, and Tampa's D drafted Nickerson and Derek Brooks). They had a vision and stayed true to it. And the fans bought in to it, as did the players.

Cincinnati Bengals

- no GM

- Mikey takes over and doesn't change anything in FO

- finally hires Marvin, but retains 75% of position coaches (Brat, Anderson, Cioffi, Alexander, etc)

- Marvin brings in his own marginal coaches (Hayes brothers, Morton, Simmons)

- get their franchise QB in 2003

- one winning season in last 18 years

I'm not buying this, the rest of the country's not buying this, so why do you think our current players are buying this? Because they have to?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

How do you think we can force Brown to give up control of his family business? By buying a ticket so you can boo during games? Or perhaps by yelling at your television? Or how about pledging to never buy another Bengal hat or T-shirt? Or maybe you spend years spewing negativity on an internet message board?

Fair question. I would say some creativity would be required, but knocking those who are trying (the billboard guys) certainly isn't a first step.

Obviously buying a ticket to boo doesn't work; Mikey would probably love that since you're, well, there.

To me, there are only two avenues with any clout - government, and the league. I would like to think the local government could, if properly encouraged, apply pressure to Mikey since they fund him. Obviously that has to be careful, but there's at least the chance that they could convince him that fielding a winning team might be a good idea. Hasn't worked in the past, but that might be because the methods were antagonistic.

I also wonder whether Goodell could be persuaded to act at some point, probably behind the scenes. He clearly is disgusted by Bengal management, and has a liberal view of his powers in pursuit of the good of the league. Right now, the wealthier owners are writing Mikey a check with the expectation that he uses the money to field a competitive football team, not line his pockets.

Let's hear some creative ideas on what might work, rather than spewing negativity as you allude to.

Don't get me wrong, I love the occasional pointless gesture as much as the next guy. But what makes anyone think they're helping bring change to the Bengals by adding their own caustic yammerings to an already toxic stew?

I don't see it as caustic yammerings. It's a legitimate plea, with an implied problem and a provided solution. "Hire a GM." No more, no less. I think it's a banner that can be got behind, and if the message is consistently and constantly used - preferably politely - I think it could help apply pressure. I think they should start politely lobbying the league office too. Hell, why not?

[derekshank]

I'm not buying this, the rest of the country's not buying this, so why do you think our current players are buying this? Because they have to?

You're just arguing semantics now. This long standing culture of losing you are arguing for is no different than the curse of the Bambino in Boston. It was always something that the fans and media cared about a lot more than the players. Something that the players didn't give a s**t about in 2004 when they were down 0-3 to the Yankees and fans had already given up hope.

Listen... if you are arguing that Mike Brown has built a bad team, then we aren't disagreeing. If you are arguing that the current players know that they aren't going to the playoffs any time soon, then we aren't disagreeing. But if you are arguing that when a player joins the Bengals, he suddenly believes that he's on a loser because of their record in the 90's, then we certainly disagree.

But as I said... you're just arguing semantics, and I'm not sure we disagree here. You pointed out yourself that fans had given up on the franchises. You agreed that all three teams had cultures of losing. What changed? Well, lots of things I suppose... but the fact is that the players who joined those teams in the transition period didn't buy into some type of curse that they would always be losers? Why? Players have pride, and they don't believe their destinies are predetermined based on the color of their jerseys.

[DesperateDerelict]

I'll bite.

How do you think we can force Brown to give up control of his family business? By buying a ticket so you can boo during games? Or perhaps by yelling at your television? Or how about pledging to never buy another Bengal hat or T-shirt? Or maybe you spend years spewing negativity on an internet message board?

Don't get me wrong, I love the occasional pointless gesture as much as the next guy. But what makes anyone think they're helping bring change to the Bengals by adding their own caustic yammerings to an already toxic stew?

Didn't you hear, Hair? (Hair, hear!)

Some Dayton guy wants everybody to walk out prior to half-time at Sunday's Eagles game.

Link: Dayton Daily News

Now there's an original idea....... My question - who'd notice????

[derekshank]

To me, there are only two avenues with any clout - government, and the league. I would like to think the local government could, if properly encouraged, apply pressure to Mikey since they fund him. Obviously that has to be careful, but there's at least the chance that they could convince him that fielding a winning team might be a good idea. Hasn't worked in the past, but that might be because the methods were antagonistic.

I also wonder whether Goodell could be persuaded to act at some point, probably behind the scenes. He clearly is disgusted by Bengal management, and has a liberal view of his powers in pursuit of the good of the league. Right now, the wealthier owners are writing Mikey a check with the expectation that he uses the money to field a competitive football team, not line his pockets.

You've got a far better chance of having the Bengals move to Los Angeles. Fans aren't going to get anything done. Ask Clippers fans.

Listen Mike Brown will die soon. I know I'm in the minority here... but I do have some hope that when he's gone, the Blackburns or whoever, will hire a GM and let someone with a plan run this team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know better than to think pressuring Mike Brown is going to do anything more than cause him to take his ball and go home.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

You've got a far better chance of having the Bengals move to Los Angeles. Fans aren't going to get anything done. Ask Clippers fans.

I talked to both of them, they wished me luck. Seriously, the Clippers aren't really in the same boat because they're not even a second class team in LA. They come behind the Lakers, USC football, UCLA football, UCLA basketball, the Dodgers, the Angels, and still even the Raiders at various times of the year. On the other hand, unless things have changed a whole bunch, Cincinnati cares about the Bengals far more than their record justifies.

Listen Mike Brown will die soon. I know I'm in the minority here... but I do have some hope that when he's gone, the Blackburns or whoever, will hire a GM and let someone with a plan run this team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know better than to think pressuring Mike Brown is going to do anything more than cause him to take his ball and go home.

That's one reason I think that "persuasion" from the league would go a long way to effecting change. I realize the commish generally doesn't want to get in the personal business of the owners, but this commish is more willing than any other and he seems not to like the Bengals operation much. With the CBA up, I think the commish can stare Mikey down and tell him that there's no need for revenue sharing since Mikey's just pocketing the money anyway, making the hiring of a GM Mikey's best card to play to show he's willing to change. I'm not saying it's high probability, but I could see it playing out that way.

And anyway, I'd rather Plan A weren't "Push Mike Brown down the stairs." That's not good for anybody.

[Jet23]

To me, there are only two avenues with any clout - government, and the league. I would like to think the local government could, if properly encouraged, apply pressure to Mikey since they fund him. Obviously that has to be careful, but there's at least the chance that they could convince him that fielding a winning team might be a good idea. Hasn't worked in the past, but that might be because the methods were antagonistic.

I also wonder whether Goodell could be persuaded to act at some point, probably behind the scenes. He clearly is disgusted by Bengal management, and has a liberal view of his powers in pursuit of the good of the league. Right now, the wealthier owners are writing Mikey a check with the expectation that he uses the money to field a competitive football team, not line his pockets.

You've got a far better chance of having the Bengals move to Los Angeles. Fans aren't going to get anything done. Ask Clippers fans.

Listen Mike Brown will die soon. I know I'm in the minority here... but I do have some hope that when he's gone, the Blackburns or whoever, will hire a GM and let someone with a plan run this team. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know better than to think pressuring Mike Brown is going to do anything more than cause him to take his ball and go home.

I don't agree. I think SOP succumbed to pressure when he went outside the Organization to hire Lewis. He may have gone even farther, had Lewis pushed for an upgrade of the Scouting Department like Coughlin did. No doubt that bad pub. bothers Brown, but not enough to give up a buck or two to change. Not showing up is what will force change. HE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE! Are you kidding me? Not after that sweetheart of a deal negotiated by his bestest employee (while representing Hamilton County). Billboards are great, because they embarrass Mike and pumpkin, but they will have no effect. When attendance falls below that golden parachute (which was brilliantly negotiated by his bestest employee.......while representing the other side) Brown will be forced to change something. It may only be a little, but it beats a blank.

[HairOnFire]

I believe what we are seeing now is the slide into apathy

And there it is.

Dead freaking on.

Take a quick peek to the left and check out the number of posts I've written.

Now add to that number the thousands of posts I've written on the various other message boards I've visited or called home in the last decade or so.

Can we all agree I am NOT a casual fan?

But damn, I'm barely hanging on here.

Worse, I'm not eyeing the exits with a white hot rage in my heart.

More like equal parts apathy and resignation.

So what happens if this team finally loses guys like me?

What's left?

[HairOnFire]

Obviously buying a ticket to boo doesn't work; Mikey would probably love that since you're, well, there.

DING!!!!

Look, what sends a louder message, a halftime walkout or empty seats from the start?

I would say some creativity would be required, but knocking those who are trying (the billboard guys) certainly isn't a first step.

Fair enough. It's just an idea that doesn't speak to me....perhaps because it doesn't say anything worth spending a dollar on. Then again, I might feel differently if the billboard showed a Bengal fan with outstretched empty arms and his head firmly lodged up his own ass.

To me, there are only two avenues with any clout - government, and the league. I would like to think the local government could, if properly encouraged, apply pressure to Mikey since they fund him. Obviously that has to be careful, but there's at least the chance that they could convince him that fielding a winning team might be a good idea. Hasn't worked in the past, but that might be because the methods were antagonistic.

Antagonistic doesn't seem to say it correctly. More like adversarial.

I also wonder whether Goodell could be persuaded to act at some point, probably behind the scenes.

Praying to pagan gods is as likely to suceed as any plan involving Goodell. Because for all of the yammering about Mikey boy being incapable of running a business or passing a high school match course I can't seem to forget how is office is said to be richly decorated with the dried skins of numerous IRS officials and local politicians. And I'm guessing there's still enough empty wall space to hang Goodell's hideous skinbag should he be crazy enough to attempt a hostile takeover.

Let's hear some creative ideas on what might work, rather than spewing negativity as you allude to.

I remain convinced the only true action that could force change upon the Bengals is no action whatsoever. In short, apathy shall set us free. And I don't think I'm kidding.

[HairOnFire]

I don't agree. I think SOP succumbed to pressure when he went outside the Organization to hire Lewis.

So, is that the same kind of fan pressure SoP succumbed to when he went outside of the organization to hire the Shula pup?

If so, well done.