Is this Defensive line good enough?

[icehole3]

I think if Sims and SHirley are contributers and Henderson stays healthy its an decent line and we can crack the top 20 as far as a NFL rank, if theyre invisible we're back in the 20-25 rankings.

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6848

A LOOK AT THE BENGALS DEFENSIVE LINE

Titus Adams (6-4, 310, First Year, 0 NFL Games)

He has already experienced two NFL preseasons with three different teams. It started with the Jets in 2006 after New York drafted him in the seventh round out of Nebraska and continued with the Giants and Chargers in 2007. As a pure tackle, he's got an uphill climb.

Antwon Burton (6-2, 325, Third Year, 7 NFL Games with no sacks)

A very large, strong man who just turned 25 and flashed his experience this past month. He had eight tackles in six games before ending last year on Denver's practice squad. He played in one game after Denver signed him as a free agent out of Temple in 2006. Burton's experience is intriguing in a matchup with Shirley, the raw draft pick.

Angelo Craig (6-5, 242, Rookie)

After an offseason of rapid weight loss and gain, Craig looks to be close to the weight he anchored the University of Cincinnati line as an edge pass rusher, highlighted by his two sacks and two forced fumbles in the Hula Bowl. "I think that's what he's going to have to do and there is a place for guys like that," Hayes says.

Craig's development has been hurt by his ability to participate in just five practices with the veterans because of UC's graduation date.

Jonathan Fanene (6-4, 295, Fourth Year, 21 NFL Games with one sack)

The Bengals quietly signed him to an extension back in February because they see his versatility and intriguing athleticism as major pluses. After injuries limited him to seven games in his first two seasons he played double that in '07, mostly on passing downs at tackle.

"He can be a left end on first and second down, and he can play some tackle on all three downs," Hayes says. "He's naturally very strong and he puts that together with some real athleticism for a guy that size."

So if Fanene is a swing guy tackle-end, room could open up for another tackle or end.

Robert Geathers (6-3, 272, Fifth Year, 62 NFL Games with 20.5 sacks)

For the second time in his four seasons during '07, Geathers moved positions after having a big year rushing the passer and didn't get the sacks. After a rookie year he bolted off the edge for 3.5 sacks as a rush end despite not playing regularly until the second half of the season, he was moved inside on passing downs in '05 and had just three sacks even though he started all 16 games. When he switched to left end in '06 on all downs he became the first double-digit sacker for the team (10.5) in 14 years before injuries at linebacker last season forced him to start four games at SAM for the first time in his life during a year he finished with just 3.5 sacks.

Geathers, the Bengal named "Junior" and widely viewed as the most versatile and athletic player on the defense, took that one for the team. Now that things have settled down at linebacker, he should be back to doing some damage. Remember, he's racked up nearly half of Justin Smith's 43.5 career sacks before the age of 25.

Eric Henderson (6-2, 256, Second Year, 0 NFL Games)

The coaches continue to be extremely impressed with this guy's work ethic and burst even though he missed all of what was supposed to be his breakout year last season with a severely dislocated wrist in a preseason game.

He suffered the injury as a SAM linebacker after an offseason he was switched from defensive end. Hayes is glad the Bengals have switched him back to the line and is leering at Henderson as one of those guys that can both drop as a linebacker in a zone blitz and rush off the edge. This is a guy whose ACC career sack numbers at Georgia Tech aren't far off what Mario Williams had at North Carolina State.

"I think it's good for him to be back with us," Hayes says. "He's a natural pass rusher and he's as strong a guy as I've got in the upper body. We can use him in different situations. He might be the best guy we have both dropping and rushing next to Junior."

Before Henderson got hurt, he had been a force on special teams and his presence makes one wonder about the roster makeup. The conventional wisdom says keep 15 guys in the front seven, with seven usually parceled out to linebacker to help out special teams coach Darrin Simmons.

But if Henderson can swing as the last D-end and last backer as well as be a force on special teams, could it be a breakdown of nine D-linemen and six backers?

Michael Marquardt (6-3, 299, Rookie)

Another guy with an uphill climb as an undrafted free agent ranked 43rd out of 148 college DTs by NFLDraftScout.com, but an impressive person. This past year at Arizona State he was first-team Academic All-Pac 10 and a semifinalist for the Draddy Trophy, otherwise known as the academic Heisman.

Michael Myers (6-2, 300, 11th Year, 138 NFL Games with 15.5 sacks)

Hayes and the other coaches love this guy's professionalism and experience, typified by his diving interception off a tipped ball on the goal line that saved the Opening Night win over Baltimore last year. "He's been there, done that," Hayes says. "Obviously for a guy to play that long, he knows what he's doing and how to go about it."

Myers arrived as a free agent from the Broncos last year and had a solid 40-tackle season in a rotation that put him in the game a lot on passing downs.

Working against him is his age, 32. Working for him is that the former Cowboy is the only Bengal who has played for new defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer.

Antwan Odom (6-5, 260, Fifth Year, 52 NFL Games with 12.5 sacks)

When the Bengals went to replace Justin Smith, they dropped their biggest dime ever in the first 72 hours of free agency on Odom, rated by consensus as one of the top two ends on the market. He's coming off an eight-sack season (something Smith did once in the last six years and twice in his career) and one of the two big questions is if he can produce without monstrous Albert Haynesworth next to him. Odom is saying he'll be up to 270 pounds by camp via three peanut butter-and-jelly sandwiches a night, so the other big question is if he can hold up against the run like Smith did.

The Bengals certainly liked their first glimpses of Odom this spring.

"Antwan's a tough guy. He's experienced. I think we'll be OK against the run with what he brings and how we'll be set up," Hayes says. "He's real slippery. He's very long and lean and is a fine pass rusher. He will give us a different tempo over there. Smitty was a hard-charging guy. Antwan has a different style, but at Tennessee he always played on rush downs. That's what he did."

Hayes also sees Odom joining Geathers and Henderson as a guy that can also drop into coverage and roam off the line.

Domata Peko (6-3, 325, Third Year, 32 NFL Games with four sacks)

He earned his recent five-year extension with nearly $1 million per game, but those 32 games have been productive-filled with 114 tackles, 60 of them solos. After the deal was signed last week, his agent suggested that the Bengals are now ready to play him in their nickel and dime packages as well as on first and second down.

"We probably should have used him more. He'd be standing next to me saying, 'Put me in,' and we probably will a lot more," Hayes says. "He's getting better and better. He has great effort. You never have to worry if he's going hard enough."

Frostee Rucker (6-3, 280, Third Year, 5 NFL Games with 0 sacks)

One of the bigger mysteries of last season is Rucker not playing for six straight games after he had four tackles and forced a fumble that led to a fourth-quarter field goal in Baltimore. When he did play again, it wasn't until the finale and two of his four tackles were for losses. Well, you should see him plenty this year. If he's not spelling Odom or Geathers in the running game, he very well could be rushing next to them as a tackle on third down.

"He has ability to get in and out of blocks. He's got good quickness and he uses his hands well," Hayes says. "He has an opportunity to get some more snaps."

At least one veteran has been impressed. John Thornton has been comparing him to Kevin Carter.

Jason Shirley (6-5, 338, Rookie)

He has spent very little time here in the camps because of his legal problems back in Fresno, Calif., and that's not going to help him as he tries to master the fundamentals. They like his gargantuan size and his raw ability, but it seems to be too raw right now to be of any significant contribution right away. The Bengals may be faced with making a decision between the experience of a Myers or a Burton and the potential upside of a fifth-rounder like Shirley.

Pat Sims (6-2, 320, Rookie)

The third-round pick out of Auburn is making his presence felt with size and quickness. How important is he? If he becomes the kind of player he did in college, people will forget Shaun Rogers, Sedrick Ellis, and any other DT the Bengals could have had this offseason. But Hayes needs to see some things at training camp.

"He's got to turn it up a notch, he's got to learn our tempo and when he does that he'll be OK," Hayes says. "The most important thing he has to do is learn how we do things, not how he has been doing them. And I'm not saying those were bad things. He's a wide guy that has quickness to him. He needs to be more timely on his get-offs instead of being delayed."

John Thornton (6-3, 297, 10th Year, 128 NFL Games with 24.5 sacks)

Hayes says Thornton has showed up this spring looking as quick and as athletic as he has the past five seasons he has been the starter. That means he gets the last laugh because he ribs reporters who constantly mention his age (32 in October). Voted defensive captain by his peers last season, Thornton commands respect in the room and prides himself on showing the younger guys how he goes about his business.

At the end of last season, he was playing primarily only on third down. But he took a bunch of snaps this spring with the first base defense. It's hard to see the Bengals keeping his $4 million salary if he's not going to be playing more, but they aren't looking to cut him because of his salary. They want to keep him because of his experience and leadership if he is still going to play like a starter and all indications have been he will.

[icehole3]

last year the Bengals had 3 guys over 300 pounds

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team...2007_roster.htm

Robinson

Myers

Peko

[GapControl]

I'm not going to be excited about the dline until Thorton is replaced as an every game starter. That was the biggest mistake of the front office and Marvin Lewis so far. It is equal to letting Takeo walk away.

[BengalPimp]

The potential is there, whether or not they live up to it, is another question.

[ArmyBengal]

A healthy linebacking corps will be nice to see this year and the change in the defensive scheme should also help with improving a horrible pass rush. My concern is still up the middle. Peko is coming along fine, but Thornton (while his character and leadership are great) is the weak link. I really hope Sims can figure things out and if Shirley gets his butt out of his legal issues and learns the defense, we would be looking pretty good.

WHODEY !!!

[HoosierCat]

Is this Defensive line good enough?

No.

(This has been another edition of "simple answers to simple questions.")

[agreen_112]

Is this Defensive line good enough?

No.

(This has been another edition of "simple answers to simple questions.")

I don't know, they may be "good enough," but definitely nothing great as long as Thorton is still starting.

[kingwilly]

Is this Defensive line good enough?

No.

(This has been another edition of "simple answers to simple questions.")

Answered with such precision. "No" is the perfect word for it.

The only talent upside here is Shirley and Sims. I remain unconvinced that this D-line can improve beyond last year unless these two rookies can challenge to start ahead of Thornton and Peko.

At tackle, of Myers, Adams, Marquandt and Burton, theymay keep 1 or two. I just cannot see Thornton getting the start. If Sims or Shirley cannot beat out Thornton to start, then this will be a long season of watching Ndukwe running after Willie Parker in the secondary.

As for the ends, Odom will be a wash from Smith, no better/no worse. Geathers should be OK which leaves Fanaene/Henderson/Rucker and some PS guys for depth. Maybe Henderson will breakthrough...would be nice to see someonhe step up and really shine, he could be the one.

Not being creative with our picks and going after a very stud DE could bite us. I'd rather have seen a guy like Groves backing up Geathers and Odom than Fanaene or Rucker.

The wildcard here is Zimmer's defensive schemes. Should there be statisitcal improvement I hope we see it due to base scheming and in-game adjustments.

[Kazkal]

I have hope our Dline will atleast be decent, I love the upside Sims and Shirley have.

[Wraith]

I Love Sims' upside, but gawd Shirley looked stiff in OTAs.

[BengalPimp]

I Love Sims' upside, but gawd Shirley looked stiff in OTAs.

If we could only get a DT named LaVerne....then we'd have LaVerne and Shirley.....I know, I know..Lame attempt at humor...I apologize.

[fattyjay]

I Love Sims' upside, but gawd Shirley looked stiff in OTAs.

If we could only get a DT named LaVerne....then we'd have LaVerne and Shirley.....I know, I know..Lame attempt at humor...I apologize.

That was pretty good BP. You know the Bengals already have a backfield of Johnson & Johnson, so the name game is familiar to them. Also, if we got a WR named Ashes...Ashes & Simpson. Another one could be if they got a GM named Beavis...you know where I'm going with this.

[HAPPYJAQ]

I like the makeup of the line. I think that Gethers and Odom should contribute 16-20 sacks this year combines and both are proven against the run. Some forget that Geathers was on the verge of a breakout season, prior to his switch to OLB, where he played reasonably well. Odoms is a young, versatile player and had 8 sacks last year. The rotation of Thornton, Peko, Sims and Fanene should play decently. The LB play should be better, which will help the line look good or vice versa. I am curious to see who doesn't make it between Myers, Rucker and Shirley (unless Thornton is cut).

[Ickey44]

(unless Thornton is cut).

Why that hasn't happened yet is still beyond my comprehension.

[PhunkE1]

(unless Thornton is cut).

Why that hasn't happened yet is still beyond my comprehension.

They obviously like his leadership/experience on a very green D. It's not due to his ability, that's for sure.

I hate the following quote about Sims:

" How important is he? If he becomes the kind of player he did in college, people will forget Shaun Rogers, Sedrick Ellis, and any other DT the Bengals could have had this offseason. "

This is BS. I'm going to remain upset about the Shaun Rogers affair regardless of how good Sims becomes. It's yet another example of Bengals getting taken advantage of by other teams/players. The trade was done, and then you hear about the Lions voiding the deal due to a technicality? This one has smelled fishy from the get go. As far as the Ellis thing is concerned, everyone watching the draft on Saturday knew that the Saints were going to leap frog us to take Ellis. Now whether they feel Rivers is the better prospect or not it's still frustrating to see that D-Lineman we've always been missing sitting right in front of us only to snatched up by another team at the last second. The fact that the Ravens picked before us made it even more likely to occur. I just think that statement is ludicrous.

[ArmyBengal]

You can be upset about the loss of Rogers to the Browns, but having to look at the bright side of things, this is the only way I can look at it...

Rogers has always been an underachiever and we can hope this continues for the Browns...

We didn't give up big money to him and were able to keep two draft picks...

The Browns gave up Bodden and are now considering making a trade in order to get more CB help as they will surely get torched if not...

While the Browns may come out of their offseason moves smelling like roses, they may come out smelling like a bag of baked ass !!!

WHODEY !!!

[HAPPYJAQ]

I'd still rather have the combination of Rivers/Sims over Rogers. At least one of the two has to turn out to be a stud, right? Better than that, you get two starters for one, if they both are as good as advertised. To me, Rogers is a huge gamble as a player who has battled his weight and injuries his entire career. Also, with taking on Rogers cap hit in a trade, the Bengals probably don't have the cap to sign Utecht and Blackstock/Johnson, who all stand to see substantial action this year. To me, the key is how well Peko plays in the middle. If he can be the type of player that the Bengals obviously think he can be and require double-teams, that would free up one-on-ones with either Geathers or Odom, and that should help in getting a pash rush out the front four.

[Ickey44]

Also, with taking on Rogers cap hit in a trade, the Bengals probably don't have the cap to sign Utecht and Blackstock/Johnson, who all stand to see substantial action this year.

If I'm not mistaken, the team trading the player is responsible for the cap hit. Therefore, the Lions took any cap hit there was. IF I'm not mistaken...

[TecmoFever]

Also, with taking on Rogers cap hit in a trade, the Bengals probably don't have the cap to sign Utecht and Blackstock/Johnson, who all stand to see substantial action this year.

I guess that because both Darryl Blackstock and Brandon Johnson are both Free Agent Linebacker pickups from Arizona, we will start lumping them together as one player. This is not the first reference I have seen like this, either.

Hopefully, the NFL will see things the same way and we can count Blackstock/Johnson as one player on our 53-man roster. Maybe since we drafted two wide receivers in consecutive rounds, we can count Simpson/Caldwell as one spot on the roster too.

Just saying...

[Orange and black fanatic]

Who knows if this line is good enough. I think Geathers, Odom and Peko are good enough. That 2nd DT is a big question mark.

I am still pissed the Bengals passed on Okum a 4 year from Texas who is just as big as Shirley and didn't drive a car into a building.

[ArmyBengal]

Jason Shirley - 6'5, 338lbs - 5.02 in the 40 with a 35 inch vertical.

Frank Okam - 6'4, 320lbs - 5.29 in the 40 unknown vertical.

Both are considered strong and stout against the run while being able to disrupt things along the line. Both also have been mentioned of running hot and cold. Shirley is considered a better all around athlete by most accounts while Okam was probably the safer pick. I guess the Bengals went with the athletic upside of Shirley seeing as how it was the 5th round.

I'll keep saying it until he pulls an Askew... IF he develops and learns the defense, we have a BEAST to clog the middle of our line for years to come !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Thurmanation]

I hope Sims can compete.. If not then No.

P.S. the Bengals should trade their second round pick next year for a good DT or atleast a proven one, seeing as our current round 2 picks haven't been doing much let alone our first round picks. Like for a First Second and Third we could easily fix this entire D.

[Adam-Whodey]

I hope Sims can compete.. If not then No.

P.S. the Bengals should trade their second round pick next year for a good DT or atleast a proven one, seeing as our current round 2 picks haven't been doing much let alone our first round picks. Like for a First Second and Third we could easily fix this entire D.

Who do you have in mind to trade for?

[Orange and black fanatic]

Jason Shirley - 6'5, 338lbs - 5.02 in the 40 with a 35 inch vertical.

Frank Okam - 6'4, 320lbs - 5.29 in the 40 unknown vertical.

Both are considered strong and stout against the run while being able to disrupt things along the line. Both also have been mentioned of running hot and cold. Shirley is considered a better all around athlete by most accounts while Okam was probably the safer pick. I guess the Bengals went with the athletic upside of Shirley seeing as how it was the 5th round.

According to NFL.com Shirley outweighs Okam by 9 lbs at the same 6'5". Shirley has Okam in the 40, but if our DTs 40 times influence the outcome of a game we are in trouble.

Here is a scouting report with video of Okam:

Frank Okam scounting report

We will find out if they chose correctly in Week 10 when the Benagls take on the Texans, who drafted Okam.

My beef is Lewis said that the Bengals would remove red flag guys from the draft board completely. Obviously, getting kicked off of Fresno St. for conduct detrimental to the team isn't a red flag. If he went to the U, maybe. Then with a guy like Okum available as an option they still selected Shirley which looks like a wasted picked because how can a guy make the team if he isn't available because he is in CA for court because HE DROVE A CAR INTO AN APARTMENT BUILDING!

I admit I have driven once or twice after having had too much to drink, but I'll be damned if I have ever been sloshed enough to see a f'ning building and thought I could out-chicken it. I know alcohol makes people stupid but Shirley must not be too far from stupid to without alcohol to think, "That building will turn first."

[ArmyBengal]

When Shirley gets cut, I'll be more upset. Right now, I'll take the potential of Shirley. The 40 time isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, but a guy that big who runs that fast, speaks volumes to his athletic ability. You are right though, we shall see...

WHODEY !!!