Time for PFT Rumors!

[HoosierCat]

Oh, why the heck not, eh? Not much left to talk about football-wise at the moment...

POSTED 12:11 p.m. EST, December 17, 2007

CHAD, T.J. "OUT OF CONTROL"

A league source tells us that there is growing animosity in the Bengals locker room toward receivers Chad Johnson and T.J. Houshmandzadeh.

Per the source, both are yelling "all the time" at quarterback Carson Palmer, but coach Marvin Lewis doesn't say or do anything about it. Players are also upset that the two receivers are trying to "run the team."

The situation reminds us of the latter days of the Denny Green era in Minnesota, where receivers Cris Carter and Randy Moss were berating quarterback Daunte Culpepper and operating under a separate set of rules.

At this point, that's all too believeable.

[walzav29]

It's obvious that there is a different relationship between those 3. I think it's time for Brat and one of those 2 to go.

[Kazkal]

Eh interesting I guess if it's true people won't be able to say more of TJ less of chad.

With that being said I doubt it's anything thing major you see carson yelling at them & vice versa it's just how much they love each other.......I hope

[Kirkendall]

Eh interesting I guess if it's true people won't be able say more TJ less chad.

With that being said I doubt it's anything thing major you see carson yelling at them & vice versa it's just how much they love each other.......I hope

That's contradictory to the report. The players are upset that T.J. and Chad are yelling at Palmer and trying to "run the team".

Joisey is right. This is way too believable to really be rumor.

[HairOnFire]

I guess if it's true people won't be able to say more of TJ less of chad.

More TJ / No Chad

[Bengals1]

I understand Chad is a fine WR and one of the best we've had on the bungles but I don't understand this almost violent reluctance from some fans about possibly trading him.

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0. Neither does Green Bay or Dallas or Indy. They all have fine WR's and so will we if we have to trade Chad. As much as we all like him he's not the be all - end all of bungles football.

We can win without him. Another "fine" WR can be found. We lost Isaac Curtis and we found Eddie Brown. We eventually lost him and found Carl Pickens. We lost Pickens and we eventually found Chad. If we trade him it won't be the end of the world, it will simply be the first page of the next chapter of bungles football.

The team will survive and maybe, just maybe get better depending on the deal we made. Let's not put him on a pedestal so high we can no longer see him clearly anymore.

[GregCook]

Eh interesting I guess if it's true people won't be able say more TJ less chad.

With that being said I doubt it's anything thing major you see carson yelling at them & vice versa it's just how much they love each other.......I hope

That's contradictory to the report. The players are upset that T.J. and Chad are yelling at Palmer and trying to "run the team".

Joisey is right. This is way too believable to really be rumor.

Yelling at each other on a 5-9 team is good. very good.

But if TJ, Chad and Carson are bickering they are distracting from the real problems. The Bengals are ranked #2 in the AFC on passing with 255 yards/game and Carson is firing away at 65% completion.

Look at rushing, where they are second to the last in yards on the ground in the AFC.

Look at pass defense where they are 4th worst.

Those are the guys needing to point fingers and fight it out.

[Kirkendall]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

[Bengals1]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

Thank you, you managed to miss my point entirely.

[agreen_112]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

Chad's a piece of s**t. He's a piece of s**t, trade him I say!!!

If anyone's gone next season, it's TJ and I don't see that happening either... Although I don't see it happening, I'd be fine with Henry, Chad and more money on defense if that (us losing TJ) were the case.

BTW, I believe the rumor OP.

[Bengals1]

If anyone's gone next season, it's TJ and I don't see that happening either... Although I don't see it happening, I'd be fine with Henry, Chad and more money on defense if that (us losing TJ) were the case.

BTW, I believe the rumor OP.

Would you be fine with TJ, Henry and more money for defense as well?

[Kirkendall]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

No, I understood your point. I just thought NE not having Chad wasn't that great of example. They're fine with what they have.

To me, I'm not really worried either way. If we have him, we have one of the league's most productive receivers over the past few seasons. If we don't, from PFT rumors, then we have our team back and less pissed off players. I'm on board either way. Sadly, I think that's Lewis' response too.

[Kirkendall]

If anyone's gone next season, it's TJ and I don't see that happening either... Although I don't see it happening, I'd be fine with Henry, Chad and more money on defense if that (us losing TJ) were the case.

BTW, I believe the rumor OP.

Would you be fine with TJ, Henry and more money for defense as well?

If you're looking to take more money and give it to the defense, then get another quarterback. But we're going to be, what, $30 million under the cap with a lot of defenders out of contract?

Look, it's never been about more money -- we're over the cap this year -- during the Marvin era. It's always been about how that money is spent.

[Bengals1]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

No, I understood your point. I just thought NE not having Chad wasn't that great of example. They're fine with what they have.

To me, I'm not really worried either way. If we have him, we have one of the league's most productive receivers over the past few seasons. If we don't, from PFT rumors, then we have our team back and less pissed off players. I'm on board either way. Sadly, I think that's Lewis' response too.

I understand, my point is that Chad is not the beginning or the end of bungles football. We'll be fine if these rumors are true and something is done with him during the off-season. NE won 3 Super Bowls before Moss arrived and well they may in fact win a fourth now that he's there, he wasn't or isn't the be all-end all of Patriots football either.

[Storm]

If we were a playoff team I say keep Chad but we can not make the playoffs without him and his tired act.

[agreen_112]

If anyone's gone next season, it's TJ and I don't see that happening either... Although I don't see it happening, I'd be fine with Henry, Chad and more money on defense if that (us losing TJ) were the case.

BTW, I believe the rumor OP.

Would you be fine with TJ, Henry and more money for defense as well?

NO.

TJ and Henry < Chad and Henry. Let's just hope we can keep Chad and TJ, I don't want to lose either. TJ seems like a loose cannon, he might be the one to jump ship.

[HairOnFire]

I wasn't sure where to post the latest Hobsonian conversation with Brat, but I picked the PFT thread for the very obvious reason of it desperately needing even a tidbit of substance. Because let's be honest, every PFT rant begins with an accusation and ends without bothering to include a single quote or remark that can be debated or followed up. Instead, the rant says nothing and quotes nobody....prompting everyone to chime in about how they believe the empty claim is plausible.

Well of course it's plausible. It didn't actually say anything, right?

Regardless, Hobnob's latest.....

Two years ago when the Bengals won the AFC North, offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski presided over a record season in all phases. Now with the record at 5-9, Bratkowski says all areas have contributed to the struggles that have seen them fall to 13th in scoring, 24th in red-zone touchdowns and 27th in rushing yards per game, and they've scored three touchdowns or more in just three games.

"It's a combination of things. Very rarely is it just one thing," Bratkowski said Monday, and one thing he won't do is put all the blame on quarterback Carson Palmer's un-Pro Bowlish 14th place in NFL passer rating.

"A lot of times he's not getting help from the other guys," Bratkowski said. "Sometimes we're not disciplined in the pass game. Sometimes we don't make the right calls in the run game. We have to get it all fixed.

"It can happen when there isn't consistency of the routes or in the protection."

The numbers offer a tantalizing mystery. Told the quarterback and receivers seem out of sync, particularly on third down, Bratkowski observed, "I don't know about that.

"We're still throwing the ball for a high percentage (65 percent at fourth in the NFL). Our third down numbers (fifth in the league) have been pretty good all year. They're still above what we strive for."

But he knows the red zone play has been miserable of late with nine touchdowns in the last 25 trips. He's not so sure that it's wholly tied to the poor running game, but he does think the lack of the rush is what is missing from the '05 season, when the Bengals finished 11th in rushing.

"People are playing us differently," he said. "The running game doesn't help. Coverages are able to sit back and double guys and play underneath guys. Not being able to run it consistently does hurt you."

Gone from '05 is speed running back Chris Perry, but more importantly is that Pro Bowl right tackle Willie Anderson has hardly played and Pro Bowl alternate left guard Eric Steinbach and the glue to it all, center Rich Braham, were never here.

"We're different than we were back then; in the backfield and up front," Bratkowski said. "That's not to say that's an excuse. We still think we've got a good group."

Also missing from that '05 mix is third receiver Chris Henry. He's playing now, but he missed the first nine weeks because of a suspension and Bratkowski says he was a long way from game shape when he returned Nov. 11. On Monday, head coach Marvin Lewis said if Henry could get himself open in the red zone, his 6-4 frame would certainly help.

"He's getting there now, but he is obviously behind," Bratkowski said.

Throw in the fact that the offensive line is flirting with the record to give up the fewest sacks in club history that it set in '05, and the numbers just don't add up.

"We've played good defenses. We haven't executed," Bratkowski said. "We only had seven (full) possessions (Saturday night) when you normally expect about 12 and it forced us to be more perfect. But we didn't capitalize. We have to play better and it's a combination of things."

Rewind the tape to two plays from Saturday night and here is why the numbers aren't adding up:

Bratkowski said Palmer could have used some help on what would have been the tying touchdown throw with 2:20 left on a fourth-and-three from the Niners 24. Palmer zipped it over wide receiver Chad Johnson's shoulder on a streak pattern in the end zone and Johnson couldn't hold the ball when he hit the ground going out of bounds.

"Hell of a throw," Bratkowski said. "It should have been caught."

Earlier in the game at midfield, Johnson did what he would do all night and beat cornerback Nate Clements down the field on a bomb. Johnson got ahead of him at the 20, but when he looked inside, the ball was outside and past him for an incompletion. Johnson had reacted to Clements' coverage on the kind of instinct play Johnson and Palmer would have had in their back pockets in '05.

"There is a certain point when a receiver has to declare he's going inside our outside," Bratkowski said. "When Chad declared to go inside, the ball had already left Carson's hands. The most common miscommunication between a receiver and quarterback is on that type of route and it was only a three- or four-yard difference.

"We tell them we want them to go outside unless the guy just flat out won't let you. More times than not he'll go outside so the quarterback knows where he's going."

But not this time. Not this year.

"Execution," Bratkowski said. "And it's not just one thing."

[ShulaSteakhouse]

The "fewest sack things" is such a misleading stat - sure they pass protect better than they run block - but the entire offense since Kitna took over has been predicated on getting rid of the ball quickly and a no-huddle offense is going to allow the D less time to line-up confusing blitzes.

Palmer has gotten killed at times this year - go back and look at tape or photos from the Pats game or against any other good or decent team this year - balls batted down - Palmer throwing over 6'7" guards and tackles with no passing lanes - no pocket to step up into (outside of the Tenn and Rams games) and getting hit hard just as he's releasing throws. He's so spooked out there he's throwing to his check-down guys sooner than he needs to, and it seems he never gets the time for the bread and butter deep outs to develop fully. Guy-chick and Andrews in particular are constantly pushed back into him, forcing him to alter his stance, throwing motion and mechanics. And we all know Palmer is acting like a robot or statue these days.

Combine that with WR's doing their own thing, not picking up reads correctly, and dropping passes left and right (Chad) and you've got a big mess.

Unfortunately that stat alone will probably allow Mr. Asst Head Coach to keep his job again and the Bengals' to ignore the o-line problems for another year - believing Whitworth is a good guard, and that Andrews and Guychick can adequately take a team into the playoffs.

[Kazkal]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0. Neither does Green Bay or Dallas or Indy. They all have fine WR's and so will we if we have to trade Chad. As much as we all like him he's not the be all - end all of bungles football.

Ya but instead of chad they have moss =P

If anyone's gone next season, it's TJ and I don't see that happening either... Although I don't see it happening, I'd be fine with Henry, Chad and more money on defense if that (us losing TJ) were the case.

BTW, I believe the rumor OP.

Would you be fine with TJ, Henry and more money for defense as well?

Um Guy we have plenty of money to spend money on the defense,But we don't spend it because it's not mikey's way.

[HairOnFire]

Palmer has gotten killed at times this year .....

No, he hasn't. All QB's get hit from time to time, but this season has been nothing like last season where statistical evidence ranked Palmer as the QB hit more than any other starter. Those same rankings now rank Palmer amongst the least hit, and other rankings point to how rarely he's been sacked.

Again, run blocking is an entirely different issue and there's no shortage of statistical evidence documenting how poor it's been....especially the number of runs stuffed behind the LOS, a stat that is far more telling about a teams blocking than the overall skill of it's RB's.

Frankly, the whining about the Bengals pass blocking is almst entirely unfounded and no doubt based upon lingering memories of Palmer being carted off the field during a playoff game.

[Kirkendall]

New England doesn't have Chad on their team and they're 14-0.

Yea, that Randy Moss is a POS.

No, I understood your point. I just thought NE not having Chad wasn't that great of example. They're fine with what they have.

To me, I'm not really worried either way. If we have him, we have one of the league's most productive receivers over the past few seasons. If we don't, from PFT rumors, then we have our team back and less pissed off players. I'm on board either way. Sadly, I think that's Lewis' response too.

I understand, my point is that Chad is not the beginning or the end of bungles football. We'll be fine if these rumors are true and something is done with him during the off-season.

Would that be like a take one step back in 2008, take two steps forwards in 2009, approach? I'd support that.

[Kirkendall]

Palmer has gotten killed at times this year .....

No, he hasn't. All QB's get hit from time to time, but this season has been nothing like last season where statistical evidence ranked Palmer as the QB hit more than any other starter. Those same rankings now rank Palmer amongst the least hit, and other rankings point to how rarely he's been sacked.

Again, run blocking is an entirely different issue and there's no shortage of statistical evidence documenting how poor it's been....especially the number of runs stuffed behind the LOS, a stat that is far more telling about a teams blocking than the overall skill of it's RB's.

Frankly, the whining about the Bengals pass blocking is almst entirely unfounded and no doubt based upon lingering memories of Palmer being carted off the field during a playoff game.

Concur. The Bengals pass protection is rated in the top-ten, no matter which mainstream stat or metrics you use.

[Kirkendall]

The "fewest sack things" is such a misleading stat - sure they pass protect better than they run block - but the entire offense since Kitna took over has been predicated on getting rid of the ball quickly and a no-huddle offense is going to allow the D less time to line-up confusing blitzes.

Palmer has gotten killed at times this year - go back and look at tape or photos from the Pats game or against any other good or decent team this year - balls batted down - Palmer throwing over 6'7" guards and tackles with no passing lanes - no pocket to step up into (outside of the Tenn and Rams games) and getting hit hard just as he's releasing throws. He's so spooked out there he's throwing to his check-down guys sooner than he needs to, and it seems he never gets the time for the bread and butter deep outs to develop fully. Guy-chick and Andrews in particular are constantly pushed back into him, forcing him to alter his stance, throwing motion and mechanics. And we all know Palmer is acting like a robot or statue these days.

Combine that with WR's doing their own thing, not picking up reads correctly, and dropping passes left and right (Chad) and you've got a big mess.

Unfortunately that stat alone will probably allow Mr. Asst Head Coach to keep his job again and the Bengals' to ignore the o-line problems for another year - believing Whitworth is a good guard, and that Andrews and Guychick can adequately take a team into the playoffs.

Palmer is as much to do it. Get rid of the ball quicker. Find passing lanes between rushers. Don't stare down the receivers by looking in one of half of the field. Don't be trendy.

[Bengals44]

The "fewest sack things" is such a misleading stat - sure they pass protect better than they run block - but the entire offense since Kitna took over has been predicated on getting rid of the ball quickly and a no-huddle offense is going to allow the D less time to line-up confusing blitzes.

Palmer has gotten killed at times this year - go back and look at tape or photos from the Pats game or against any other good or decent team this year - balls batted down - Palmer throwing over 6'7" guards and tackles with no passing lanes - no pocket to step up into (outside of the Tenn and Rams games) and getting hit hard just as he's releasing throws. He's so spooked out there he's throwing to his check-down guys sooner than he needs to, and it seems he never gets the time for the bread and butter deep outs to develop fully. Guy-chick and Andrews in particular are constantly pushed back into him, forcing him to alter his stance, throwing motion and mechanics. And we all know Palmer is acting like a robot or statue these days.

Combine that with WR's doing their own thing, not picking up reads correctly, and dropping passes left and right (Chad) and you've got a big mess.

Unfortunately that stat alone will probably allow Mr. Asst Head Coach to keep his job again and the Bengals' to ignore the o-line problems for another year - believing Whitworth is a good guard, and that Andrews and Guychick can adequately take a team into the playoffs.

Palmer is as much to do it. Get rid of the ball quicker. Find passing lanes between rushers. Don't stare down the receivers by looking in one of half of the field. Don't be trendy.

Again you are correct Kirk, the staring down recievers is something he has regressed on, that must change. Further, I would like to see him get out of the pocket more often, he's no burner, but he is not slow either...