Bengals Erase 2005

[gregstephens]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Agreed also. And, for all the debating about on-field versus off-field issues, the antics of Thurman and Henry have hurt this team in practical ways as well as morale. Not to mention Nicholson, Rucker, etc. It's hard for the straight guys to feel the commraderie with those drawing the negative press. That's why we can't play like the Patriots as a true unit.

This is pretty much recycled from last year and IMO overblown. Yes, Henry is suspended -- not too much room for disagreement that this hurts the team. I readily concede that point. Thurman, by all rights, should be off of suspension and available. Goodell's decision not to re-instate continues to appear to be without any basis. Nonetheless, I tend to believe that Odell was made an example of by the team and there's very little chance that he would play for the Bengals again anyway. If he was back, available and in-shape, it would be interesting to see what Marvin would do. But either way, you lose that argument. Because if he's back and ready to play and has kept himself out of trouble, he's no longer a bad guy, right? If he has, as I suspect, been ruled out of the Bengals' plans, then Marvin has "cleaned house."

As for Nicholson & Rucker, these continued references to them are laughable. It has been two years since Rucker has done anything that could even possibly be considered as illustrating "bad character." So, exactly why does everyone have a hard-on for constantly using him as an example of any problem. He wasn't even suspended. I'm not saying he's a good guy -- he may be a p***k for all I know. But he has never been arrested or anything else for two years. As for Nicholson, he appears to be another example of exactly what you're calling for. He got in trouble and got cut. He hasn't been a Bengal this season. He played a few ST snaps last year. He was what, a 5th round pick? Is this the player that has hurt team morale? I didn't realize that marginal players, who almost never saw the field had that much influence on a team.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it was Nicholson who hasn't taken a snap or whatever all you said. His name came up and cast shadows on the team. Rucker's name cast shadows on the team. Both of these guys were in training camp and, if you listened to Peter King this morning on ESPN, he stated he watched the Bengals in training camp and knew they were in trouble. Not necessarily because solely of those two, but because they were not a cohesive unit. All those issues eroded the cohesiveness of the team. For God's sake, all these guys know how to play football or they wouldn't be in the NFL. The problem has to be, in large part, the intangibles.

[gregstephens]

First, when you say 'win right now', are you chanting the age-old Bengals mantra that 'we're building for the future, even if we don't win right now'?

I was quoting you. I'm pointing the hypocricy of saying there are no "moral victories" when the Bengals lose a close game and then saying that a loss is okay as long as they play "like professionals."

A win is a win and loss is a loss to me. What about last night's game made you think the team wasn't playing like professionals? Chad's blow up? A flaccid offense? Or was it the simple fact that Marvin Lewis yelled at the team in the locker room. You may have a valid point in there, but you're mixing up so many things that I can't find it.

Again, you were the one that said "win right now" and then said losing is okay as long as they play like professionals. I find those hard to reconcile.

Whoa whoa whoa. No NFL team or fan should say that losing is ok, and I never said it was. I was saying that I can at least hold out hope the team can remain competitive and have a decent season if they played like professions. They haven't and no one can argue there was anything professional about how that game was played last night. Too many stupid penalties in the second half. Too many blown routes/dropped passes, on top of the outburst, from Johnson. A defense that stood around with its collective head hanging and conceding defeat by the middle of the third quarter. Justin Smith's comments on the sidelines. They don't have any hope in themselves, how can the fans?

[BengalByTheBay]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it was Nicholson who hasn't taken a snap or whatever all you said. His name came up and cast shadows on the team. Rucker's name cast shadows on the team. Both of these guys were in training camp and, if you listened to Peter King this morning on ESPN, he stated he watched the Bengals in training camp and knew they were in trouble. Not necessarily because solely of those two, but because they were not a cohesive unit. All those issues eroded the cohesiveness of the team. For God's sake, all these guys know how to play football or they wouldn't be in the NFL. The problem has to be, in large part, the intangibles.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. The question is whether the Bengals morale was affected by a couple of guys who rarely have played. Whether the media thought x, y, or z isn't important. The fact that you have resorted to using Peter King as some sort of reliable source tells me all I need to know. Basically, he now says "I told you so." What will he say if the Bengals win the next 2? Would the "intangibles" you speak of be demonstrated by such long time starting Bengals as Dhani Jones? Injuries are real -- "intangibles" is whatever you want it to be.

[dave]

In terms of the injuries that have plagued the Bengals, sure that is true. Injuries plague every team over the course of 16 games. No one is immune. The Bengals problem in that regard is not having the depth of roster to cover it. That is a Mike Brown problem first and a Marvin Lewis problem to the extent he has input on player acquisition, if any.

Amen. Anyone who wants to blame injuries needs to think about all of the crappy picks the Marvin/Mike duo have taken. The list of 5th round and above picks who have been busts or aren't even with the team any more includes: Thurman, Henry, Ratliff, Askew, Abdullah, Nicholson, McNeal, and Mann. Those are all personnel mistakes, I'm giving them a pass for guys who can't get on the field or had bad breaks (C Perry, Weathersby, Irons, Pollack, etc.).

[BengalByTheBay]

First, when you say 'win right now', are you chanting the age-old Bengals mantra that 'we're building for the future, even if we don't win right now'?

I was quoting you. I'm pointing the hypocricy of saying there are no "moral victories" when the Bengals lose a close game and then saying that a loss is okay as long as they play "like professionals."

A win is a win and loss is a loss to me. What about last night's game made you think the team wasn't playing like professionals? Chad's blow up? A flaccid offense? Or was it the simple fact that Marvin Lewis yelled at the team in the locker room. You may have a valid point in there, but you're mixing up so many things that I can't find it.

Again, you were the one that said "win right now" and then said losing is okay as long as they play like professionals. I find those hard to reconcile.

Whoa whoa whoa. No NFL team or fan should say that losing is ok, and I never said it was. I was saying that I can at least hold out hope the team can remain competitive and have a decent season if they played like professions. They haven't and no one can argue there was anything professional about how that game was played last night. Too many stupid penalties in the second half. Too many blown routes/dropped passes, on top of the outburst, from Johnson. A defense that stood around with its collective head hanging and conceding defeat by the middle of the third quarter. Justin Smith's comments on the sidelines. They don't have any hope in themselves, how can the fans?

Any team that is losing the game exhibits all of the things you are talking about. If that's what you're referring to then it explains nothing other than a team losing a game. Lots of teams take stupid penalties. Dropped passes are "unprofessional"? Okay, I see them in most games. This isn't a "team rotting from within" -- it's a fan base that is overreacting to a loss. And if my quoting of you makes you uncomfortable, sorry. You're starting to sound quite Clintonesque in your explanations of what you quite obviously said.

[gregstephens]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it was Nicholson who hasn't taken a snap or whatever all you said. His name came up and cast shadows on the team. Rucker's name cast shadows on the team. Both of these guys were in training camp and, if you listened to Peter King this morning on ESPN, he stated he watched the Bengals in training camp and knew they were in trouble. Not necessarily because solely of those two, but because they were not a cohesive unit. All those issues eroded the cohesiveness of the team. For God's sake, all these guys know how to play football or they wouldn't be in the NFL. The problem has to be, in large part, the intangibles.

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. The question is whether the Bengals morale was affected by a couple of guys who rarely have played. Whether the media thought x, y, or z isn't important. The fact that you have resorted to using Peter King as some sort of reliable source tells me all I need to know. Basically, he now says "I told you so." What will he say if the Bengals win the next 2? Would the "intangibles" you speak of be demonstrated by such long time starting Bengals as Dhani Jones? Injuries are real -- "intangibles" is whatever you want it to be.

Of course the morale was affected. When the media reports on the Bengals A.J. Nicholson, it also constantly reminds the world about 'the Bengals' problems. The whole team gets lumped in there. It makes the team look bad. And if you had any thoughts of the Bengals going to the playoffs before the season began, I wouldn't criticize Peter King right now, because he's looking a lot smarter than a big percentage of Bengal Nation. And frankly, if a Dhani Jones joins the team last week and shows leadership by playing hard and staying out of trouble, it doesn't matter if he's not a 'long-time' Bengal. Heck, the best 'long-time' Bengal we had we cut in Brian Simmons. Intangibles may be whatever you want it to be, but it'll be the difference between 10-6 and 6-10. What will King say if the Bengals win the next two (you didn't say 'when they win the next two' BTW)? Probably "big deal it's the Jets and Chiefs". Don't count those victories yet, either.

[HairOnFire]

... if you listened to Peter King this morning on ESPN, he stated he watched the Bengals in training camp and knew they were in trouble. Not necessarily because solely of those two, but because they were not a cohesive unit. All those issues eroded the cohesiveness of the team.

John Clayton came to the same conclusion but didn't use pablum to make his point. He simply looked at the staggering number of injures the Bengals had already been forced to adjust to and concluded that the missing personel had so dramatically impacted the Bengals long-term plans and short-term ability to practice that the team was "struggling to find competence." And since Clayton's article appeared the number of Bengals injuries has only increased, right?

[gregstephens]

First, when you say 'win right now', are you chanting the age-old Bengals mantra that 'we're building for the future, even if we don't win right now'?

I was quoting you. I'm pointing the hypocricy of saying there are no "moral victories" when the Bengals lose a close game and then saying that a loss is okay as long as they play "like professionals."

A win is a win and loss is a loss to me. What about last night's game made you think the team wasn't playing like professionals? Chad's blow up? A flaccid offense? Or was it the simple fact that Marvin Lewis yelled at the team in the locker room. You may have a valid point in there, but you're mixing up so many things that I can't find it.

Again, you were the one that said "win right now" and then said losing is okay as long as they play like professionals. I find those hard to reconcile.

Whoa whoa whoa. No NFL team or fan should say that losing is ok, and I never said it was. I was saying that I can at least hold out hope the team can remain competitive and have a decent season if they played like professions. They haven't and no one can argue there was anything professional about how that game was played last night. Too many stupid penalties in the second half. Too many blown routes/dropped passes, on top of the outburst, from Johnson. A defense that stood around with its collective head hanging and conceding defeat by the middle of the third quarter. Justin Smith's comments on the sidelines. They don't have any hope in themselves, how can the fans?

Any team that is losing the game exhibits all of the things you are talking about. If that's what you're referring to then it explains nothing other than a team losing a game. Lots of teams take stupid penalties. Dropped passes are "unprofessional"? Okay, I see them in most games. This isn't a "team rotting from within" -- it's a fan base that is overreacting to a loss. And if my quoting of you makes you uncomfortable, sorry. You're starting to sound quite Clintonesque in your explanations of what you quite obviously said.

Professional teams and good coaching staffs fix those things. We've seen those issues in the Bengals for the past seventeen years. When do they fixed? How much longer do you coddle bad play? It's not overreacting to a loss. Have you watched the three losses the past three weeks? Or how about the eleven losses in the past seventeen games? It's a fan base that saw the team capable of success two years ago and wondering what happened. BTW--what do I care if you are quoting me? I didn't insinuate I cared. Just try to interpret it correctly, that's all I ask.

[HoosierCat]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Well, looking at last night, you could single out antics by TJ, Chatman and Bobbie Williams...but I'd point my finger right up top, at Carson Palmer. Carson was the one who started the jaw-fest with Chad, screaming at Chad as he walked off the field after the pick. Compare that to how Brady acted after he tossed his INT. Brady was clearly pissed, but he didn't immediately start going at his teammate. I'm sure Carson wanted to "discuss" the play with Chad -- but walk off the field first (especially when you are on national TV)!!!

[gregstephens]

... if you listened to Peter King this morning on ESPN, he stated he watched the Bengals in training camp and knew they were in trouble. Not necessarily because solely of those two, but because they were not a cohesive unit. All those issues eroded the cohesiveness of the team.

John Clayton came to the same conclusion but didn't use pablum to make his point. He simply looked at the staggering number of injures the Bengals had already been forced to adjust to and concluded that the missing personel had so dramatically impacted the Bengals long-term plans and short-term ability to practice that the team was "struggling to find competence." And since Clayton's article appeared the number of Bengals injuries has only increased, right?

Sure--and I haven't discounted the impact the injuries have had on this team, at least on defense. But the guys that are out need to play better. What was the excuse for the defense in the Browns' loss? Bresnahan himself said the players weren't playing where they were supposed to be and missing tackles they shouldn't have missed. That's not an injury problem. And explain the offense. Rudi was hurt for game four. Why did he play poorly in weeks one through three? Why is Johnson missing so many routes and dropping so many passes? Ok, the Bengals don't have a legitimate third receiver because of suspension and injury to different people. But how many teams have two receivers the caliber of Johnson and Housh AND a good third receiver? Explain Palmer's errancy in the short pass this season. He's not injured. Willie Anderson is injured, I guess, and who knows if Levi is healthy 100 percent, but the blitz hasn't been that big of an issue. So, in short, explain the issues. If your only explanation is injuries, that is being short sighted.

[HairOnFire]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. The question is whether the Bengals morale was affected by a couple of guys who rarely have played. Whether the media thought x, y, or z isn't important.

The media is important only in the sense that they play a major role in determining what many fans opinions will be. For example, the real impact of last seasons player arrests would be laughable were it not for the way the media reaction stirred up a grandstanding commish and a Bengal fanbase still smarting over things that happened in 1991.

[gregstephens]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Well, looking at last night, you could single out antics by TJ, Chatman and Bobbie Williams...but I'd point my finger right up top, at Carson Palmer. Carson was the one who started the jaw-fest with Chad, screaming at Chad as he walked off the field after the pick. Compare that to how Brady acted after he tossed his INT. Brady was clearly pissed, but he didn't immediately start going at his teammate. I'm sure Carson wanted to "discuss" the play with Chad -- but walk off the field first (especially when you are on national TV)!!!

I'll agree with that to an extent. However, you look at it on the sideline, Palmer sits down and doesn't want to escalate the situation. He had his say and sat down. Johnson's the one everyone had to pull back and the one that clearly wanted to prove he was right. I don't necessarily know that Palmer's reaction was that out of line, but assuming he could have handled it differently, Johnson took up a notch, even fighting all the way back to the dressing room.

[HairOnFire]

And explain the offense. Rudi was hurt for game four. Why did he play poorly in weeks one through three?

Would you notice if in week 2 he'd gained 120 yards in 3 quarters?

Probably not, right?

[gregstephens]

I don't think I'm missing the point at all. The question is whether the Bengals morale was affected by a couple of guys who rarely have played. Whether the media thought x, y, or z isn't important.

The media is important only in the sense that they play a major role in determining what many fans opinions will be. For example, the real impact of last seasons player arrests would be laughable were it not for the way the media reaction stirred up a grandstanding commish and a Bengal fanbase still smarting over things that happened in 1991.

I agree to a point. I think the media does obviously cause many of the problems, but the impact is still real. It's not just on the fan base, either. The guys that work hard doing their job and being normal law abiding citizens come to resent the negative impression of the team because of what the media portrays. And don't buy for a second that last season's arrests would be laughable but for the reaction. When you got guys making good money to play a great sport and they are too stupid to keep their noses clean, it should call into question their intellectual ability to succeed in the NFL--i.e. if I'm making two million to play linebacker and I keep getting in trouble, why should you believe I have the mental ability to avoid stupid penalties and make all my tacking assignments. We had too many guys getting in trouble and the lack of discipline showed on the field as well as off.

[HairOnFire]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Well, looking at last night, you could single out antics by TJ, Chatman and Bobbie Williams...but I'd point my finger right up top, at Carson Palmer. Carson was the one who started the jaw-fest with Chad, screaming at Chad as he walked off the field after the pick.

So when discussing the type of unprofessional play that we think Marvin was angrily reacting to we've named six players, all on offense.

Rather telling, I'd say.

As for Palmer, you make a fair point. Then again, Palmer doesn't have a history of such outbursts, does he?

[gregstephens]

And explain the offense. Rudi was hurt for game four. Why did he play poorly in weeks one through three?

Would you notice if in week 2 he'd gained 120 yards in 3 quarters?

Probably not, right?

Would you notice that he a career low 3.8 yards per carry last season? Or a blistering 9 yards on 17 carries against a C+/B- defense in Seattle? Or how about a 2.8 yard per carry average against Baltimore (50 on 18 carries). Sorry, blistering the Browns aside, he has had a bad season. Still no explanation from you.

[HoosierCat]

I'll agree with that to an extent. However, you look at it on the sideline, Palmer sits down and doesn't want to escalate the situation. He had his say and sat down. Johnson's the one everyone had to pull back and the one that clearly wanted to prove he was right. I don't necessarily know that Palmer's reaction was that out of line, but assuming he could have handled it differently, Johnson took up a notch, even fighting all the way back to the dressing room.

Oh, no doubt that Chad one-upped Carson in the "blowing a fuse" category Monday night. He most definitely needed to STFU. But that's why as the QB and leader of your team you have to take a deep breath and walk off the field. Your team is going to take its cues off of you and if you blow your stack, they will too.

[gregstephens]

I never like it when the Bengals lose, but I'd feel a little less bad -- and a lot more hopeful for the future -- if they did it like professionals, y'know?

Agreed. That said, when you think of unprofessional behavior being demonstrated by Bengal players....who do you think of?

I mean after you've gotten past Chad and Levi?

Well, looking at last night, you could single out antics by TJ, Chatman and Bobbie Williams...but I'd point my finger right up top, at Carson Palmer. Carson was the one who started the jaw-fest with Chad, screaming at Chad as he walked off the field after the pick.

So when discussing the type of unprofessional play that we think Marvin was angrily reacting to we've named six players, all on offense.

Rather telling, I'd say.

As for Palmer, you make a fair point. Then again, Palmer doesn't have a history of such outbursts, does he?

So you're conceding there is more than injuries at work here?

[gregstephens]

I'll agree with that to an extent. However, you look at it on the sideline, Palmer sits down and doesn't want to escalate the situation. He had his say and sat down. Johnson's the one everyone had to pull back and the one that clearly wanted to prove he was right. I don't necessarily know that Palmer's reaction was that out of line, but assuming he could have handled it differently, Johnson took up a notch, even fighting all the way back to the dressing room.

Oh, no doubt that Chad one-upped Carson in the "blowing a fuse" category Monday night. He most definitely needed to STFU. But that's why as the QB and leader of your team you have to take a deep breath and walk off the field. Your team is going to take its cues off of you and if you blow your stack, they will too.

And I can't disagree with that. Then it wraps back to the point of who is acting like they care about the downslide and who is showing their immaturity. I'd rather have Palmer act like he's tired of losing and mental errors than act like many accused Eli Manning of last year by not doing anything. But you do have a point as to timing. Do it in the locker room if you're Palmer. Also, I'd quit taking the heat like Palmer did in post game. He can take the heat for throwing short on passes, or high for that matter, as he has thrown this season. That play he took the heat for was C.J.'s issue, if you ask me.

[HairOnFire]

We had too many guys getting in trouble and the lack of discipline showed on the field as well as off.

That feels like a stretch. Most of the so-called character problems were evenly split between players who never sniffed the field or were amongst the Bengals very best players. In fact, the Bengals most highly scorned bad boy, Chris Henry, ranks as one of the highest impact players in the entire NFL.

[gregstephens]

We had too many guys getting in trouble and the lack of discipline showed on the field as well as off.

That feels like a stretch. Most of the so-called character problems were evenly split between players who never sniffed the field or were amongst the Bengals very best players. In fact, the Bengals most highly scorned bad boy, Chris Henry, ranks as one of the highest impact players in the entire NFL.

Oh absolutely. Henry is one of the highest impact players in the entire NFL. There can be no argument about that. He'd be a one or two receiver almost anywhere else in the NFL. But that do us any good when he's sitting out for eight games. You don't think there's resentment towards him right about now as the Bengals look in the stands during games to find a third receiver?

[HairOnFire]

And explain the offense. Rudi was hurt for game four. Why did he play poorly in weeks one through three?

Would you notice if in week 2 he'd gained 120 yards in 3 quarters?

Probably not, right?

Would you notice that he a career low 3.8 yards per carry last season? Or a blistering 9 yards on 17 carries against a C+/B- defense in Seattle? Or how about a 2.8 yard per carry average against Baltimore (50 on 18 carries). Sorry, blistering the Browns aside, he has had a bad season. Still no explanation from you.

Why should I explain to you something we seem to agree on? That being, despite producing some impressive individual stats...and a few troubling ones too....the Bengals offensive skill players haven't performed well dating back to last season. For example, the failure to produce on 3rd down is a problem that's well into it's second year, right?

What I was attempting to point out is how the results are often the same if the entire team doesn't produce as a unit. And there's the rub because Palmer doesn't throw 6 TD passes against the Browns without Rudi running for great yardage. But nobody seems to respect that because Rudi wasn't able to gash the same Seahawk or Raven defenses that Palmer struggled against.

[HairOnFire]

So you're conceding there is more than injuries at work here?

No doubt. The team is showing signs of being as mentally sick and hopelessly depressed as a fairly large portion of it's fanbase. But by the same token I'll argue that the single greatest factor for this teams current struggles are the injuries that too many fans flippantly disregard while uttering something stupid about not tolerating excuses and how they deserve something more.

[HairOnFire]

You don't think there's resentment towards him right about now as the Bengals look in the stands during games to find a third receiver?

I think it works both ways. I'm pretty sure there are Bengal players who appreciate how good Henry is and are happy to reap the benefits that have resulted from him being on the roster.