What are the chances we beat the Pats next week?

[BengalByTheBay]

We played a better-than-could-be-expected game at Seattle. It seems like everybody got their panties all in a bunch because we actually had a chance to win the game and started convincing themselves that we should've won it. Dhani freaking Jones played the entire second half and he's been a Bengal for what -- a week? My bottom line is that I'm at least gratified that they were grinding it out -- unlike that abortion last week. I expected 1-3 and it looks like I'm gonna get it. I won't tell you that I think we've got much of a chance against the darlings of the NFL and Goodell's favorite team, but weirder things have happened. It's possible.

If we can get a little healthier -- get some guys like Jeanty, Brooks back -- this team should look a damn sight better in a couple of weeks. As far as playing down to the competition, I have no great optimistic words about that. I agree, we don't get it together to win the games we should convincingly. Very frustrating.

The Bengals' fan in me says they played a decent game at Seattle and almost pulled it off despite being banged up worse than any time I've seen in a long time here, and I'm not giving up hope on them quite yet. They're capable of a turnaround most definitely.

The realist in my says that i've seen this all before and to expect anything to suddenly change.

So I'm somewhere in the middle, and will stop complaining. Got it out of me for the week I think.

Shula to stop complaining??????? Stop the presses.

[HoosierCat]

Opening line on the game has the Bengals as 7-point home dogs. Ouch.

[kenyon1977]

I don't care who we're playing. It's Monday Night Football, Bengals are at home, the cats have their backs in a corner to keep the division from getting too far away from them, I'll be there, (if need be I'll play linebacker to lend a hand), sometime during this week in practice they are going to go over the whole shutting down Moss or hitting his knees lesson in practice, Tom Brady has never had a receiver on his team that he's thrown more than 7 TD's to during the season.

HERE COMES THE PAIN TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Player4]

As bad as it looks, as bad as we've played, it's still possible for the Bengals to beat the Pats. The Pats are good no doubt, but it's not like they are the 72 Dolphins. The Pats will lose games this season. Why not us? Why not now?

[vettespd20]

WE SHOULD look back at some of these post at like week 12-14. Make some of these people eat there words. I still think we win 10-11 games. I think a huge impact is injuries and Chris Henry being out. With Chris Henry in there all season we WOULD HAVE FOR SURE be 3-0. Thats all i have to say with out any question

[BengalByTheBay]

Opening line on the game has the Bengals as 7-point home dogs. Ouch.

Well, the Bills were 16.5 dogs and the Patsies easily covered that. This equates to a 10 point line basically. Yeah, I don't see that as being off too much based on the season-to-date. Pat's are only going to get bigger lines if the beatings continue. Here's to a punch in the mouth for 'em on Monday!

[snerdly]

Patriots fan here...

Do the Bengels have a chance? Of course they do.

Here's a couple facts to chew on:

The Bengel offense is #1 in the Red Zone (scoring TD's on 6 of 9 chances)

The Patriot defense is the league WORST in stopping opponents in the Red Zone (they've scored TD's 5 for 5)

So there ya go... reason for hope (slim as it may be

[walzav29]

Last year the Pats were 2-1 and the Bengals were 3-0 and were supposed to whip the Pats. A little revenge would be in order here, but I lack faith in the coaching and talent.

[sonsofkraftybob]

On any given Sunday Brady could get hurt.

[Bobcat Bengal]

We played a better-than-could-be-expected game at Seattle. It seems like everybody got their panties all in a bunch because we actually had a chance to win the game and started convincing themselves that we should've won it. Dhani freaking Jones played the entire second half and he's been a Bengal for what -- a week? My bottom line is that I'm at least gratified that they were grinding it out -- unlike that abortion last week. I expected 1-3 and it looks like I'm gonna get it. I won't tell you that I think we've got much of a chance against the darlings of the NFL and Goodell's favorite team, but weirder things have happened. It's possible.

If we can get a little healthier -- get some guys like Jeanty, Brooks back -- this team should look a damn sight better in a couple of weeks. As far as playing down to the competition, I have no great optimistic words about that. I agree, we don't get it together to win the games we should convincingly. Very frustrating.

The Bengals' fan in me says they played a decent game at Seattle and almost pulled it off despite being banged up worse than any time I've seen in a long time here, and I'm not giving up hope on them quite yet. They're capable of a turnaround most definitely.

The realist in my says that i've seen this all before and to expect anything to suddenly change.

So I'm somewhere in the middle, and will stop complaining. Got it out of me for the week I think.

Shula to stop complaining??????? Stop the presses.

This is embarassing. And I'm not just directing this at anyone in particular.

I don't want opposing teams fans to come on this board and see us acting this way.

That's kinda the reason why Bengals fans get clowned all the time in public.

Man up guys.....stranger things have happened. Kitna was 1-3 before the bye week too, and look what happened.

We'll be getting some players back soon, Jeanty, Kilmer, Perry, etc.

You guys can bitch and moan if you want and give these Pats fans more ammo.

Me? I'm gonna watch the game, and believe the Bengals have a chance to play with these guys.

They aren't juggernauts.

[Undertaker #59]

Absolutely.

Any Given Sunday.

[damiancasey]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

[The PatternMaster]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

[damiancasey]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

Don't you remember the mid-90's??? Every game was down to the last second for 12 years - and we lost 90% of those games!! I love the Bungles and I'm really not a negative person but "way to believe"? You're looking at the same first 3 games that I did and they're really bad - it's true! You can look at a cow and call it a horse - you can even believe it's a horse - but...it's...still...a...cow...

[BengalByTheBay]

This is embarassing. And I'm not just directing this at anyone in particular.

I don't want opposing teams fans to come on this board and see us acting this way.

That's kinda the reason why Bengals fans get clowned all the time in public.

Man up guys.....stranger things have happened. Kitna was 1-3 before the bye week too, and look what happened.

We'll be getting some players back soon, Jeanty, Kilmer, Perry, etc.

You guys can bitch and moan if you want and give these Pats fans more ammo.

Me? I'm gonna watch the game, and believe the Bengals have a chance to play with these guys.

They aren't juggernauts.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that a 100% agreement on the mb that the Bengals are gonna win will not make a big difference in the game. If this is supposed to be a pep rally, count me out. I don't think Bengals fans get clowned because they don't predict victory against the current best team in the league. The suggestion that everybody has to get with your program and go all cheerleader or the Pats fans will have more ammo is a little ... cheesy. We're just giving our opinion. I couldn't care less if Bob Kraft's illegitimate son is reading that some Bengals fans don't think they have much chance of winning this game. I've hardly seen anybody comment that they're not gonna watch and the Bengals have no chance at all -- there are a couple of exceptions, but there always are here. Pretty much it looks like to me that the consensus is that every factor except home field advantage currently favors the Pats. They have no significant injuries and we have a ton. They're on fire and we're ... not. The players we're getting back (fingers crossed) with teh exception of Brooks won't be out there this week. That's not rooting, that's just facts. Nonetheless, most reasonable minds think we have a chance and the examples are noted....KC, Denver. Don't worry Tate, most of us haven't given up. I've written a ton of messages basically contending that the reaction to the Seattle game here was extreme. You're right, there is reason to be optimistic. However, the odds are totally stacked against us this Monday and to act like that's not true is kinda disingenuous. Once the ball is kicked-off, of course, I will be totally convinced that we can and should win. As of right now, I'm staring at a pretty big helping of pessimism.

[oldschooler]

Wow. Pretty pathetic when Patriots fans are giving the Bengals

more of a chance than Bengals fans are . . .

Aren`t the Bengals, under Marvin Lewis, undefeated in prime time games at home ?

I think they are.

The Bengals will be underdogs at home, they`ll be pissed off, fired up,

the Jungle will be alive, and they`ll be on National TV, wearing their

Orange jerseys and healthier.

I like our chances.

[The PatternMaster]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

Don't you remember the mid-90's??? Every game was down to the last second for 12 years - and we lost 90% of those games!! I love the Bungles and I'm really not a negative person but "way to believe"? You're looking at the same first 3 games that I did and they're really bad - it's true! You can look at a cow and call it a horse - you can even believe it's a horse - but...it's...still...a...cow...

So your comparing this team to a team in the 90's, did you forget that this team won the division and went 11-5 only two seasons ago.

Why are fans so quick to throw in the towel and write the season off when it just began?

[damiancasey]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

Don't you remember the mid-90's??? Every game was down to the last second for 12 years - and we lost 90% of those games!! I love the Bungles and I'm really not a negative person but "way to believe"? You're looking at the same first 3 games that I did and they're really bad - it's true! You can look at a cow and call it a horse - you can even believe it's a horse - but...it's...still...a...cow...

So your comparing this team to a team in the 90's, did you forget that this team won the division and went 11-5 only two seasons ago.

Why are fans so quick to throw in the towel and write the season off when it just began?

why are fans so quick to throw in the towel? because fans are smart and experienced! because MB is still the owner and is only mildly interested in winning.

We haven't been to the superbowl since 1989. Assuming we don't go this year (I think that's a safe bet) it will have been 18 years! 18 freakin years! After 18 seasons of not going to the big show you start to wise up to what MB's strengths are (and they aint fielding winning superbowl teams.)

Furthermore the majority of those 18 seasons haven't just been non-superbowl seasons...they have been truly pathetic and laughable teams.

So we went 11-5 a couple of seasons ago...big deal...did we go to the playoffs?...NO

There's a difference between being optimistic and being a sucker - I want the Bungles to win on Monday - bad. I'm not going to be a sucker, though and think that management is committed to fielding anything more than a mediocre team.

[oldschooler]

why are fans so quick to throw in the towel? because fans are smart and experienced! because MB is still the owner and is only mildly interested in winning.

We haven't been to the superbowl since 1989. Assuming we don't go this year (I think that's a safe bet) it will have been 18 years! 18 freakin years! After 18 seasons of not going to the big show you start to wise up to what MB's strengths are (and they aint fielding winning superbowl teams.)

Furthermore the majority of those 18 seasons haven't just been non-superbowl seasons...they have been truly pathetic and laughable teams.

So we went 11-5 a couple of seasons ago...big deal...did we go to the playoffs?...NO

There's a difference between being optimistic and being a sucker - I want the Bungles to win on Monday - bad. I'm not going to be a sucker, though and think that management is committed to fielding anything more than a mediocre team.

The Bengals have played 19% of the season.

If my math is correct, that means they have 81% left to play.

And the Bengals DID go to the Playoffs a couple of seasons ago.

Also the Mike Brown crap is old and played out.

The Bengals had the 4th highest payroll in the NFL last season,

behind only the Colts, Vikings, and Cowboys . . .

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nf....aspx?year=2006

[The PatternMaster]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

Don't you remember the mid-90's??? Every game was down to the last second for 12 years - and we lost 90% of those games!! I love the Bungles and I'm really not a negative person but "way to believe"? You're looking at the same first 3 games that I did and they're really bad - it's true! You can look at a cow and call it a horse - you can even believe it's a horse - but...it's...still...a...cow...

So your comparing this team to a team in the 90's, did you forget that this team won the division and went 11-5 only two seasons ago.

Why are fans so quick to throw in the towel and write the season off when it just began?

why are fans so quick to throw in the towel? because fans are smart and experienced! because MB is still the owner and is only mildly interested in winning.

We haven't been to the superbowl since 1989. Assuming we don't go this year (I think that's a safe bet) it will have been 18 years! 18 freakin years! After 18 seasons of not going to the big show you start to wise up to what MB's strengths are (and they aint fielding winning superbowl teams.)

Furthermore the majority of those 18 seasons haven't just been non-superbowl seasons...they have been truly pathetic and laughable teams.

So we went 11-5 a couple of seasons ago...big deal...did we go to the playoffs?...NO

There's a difference between being optimistic and being a sucker - I want the Bungles to win on Monday - bad. I'm not going to be a sucker, though and think that management is committed to fielding anything more than a mediocre team.

uh..we went to the playoffs in 2005, don't you remember when Carson got his knee shredded on the second play of the game?

Management has shown their committment by re-signing key players to big time deals, Carson, TJ, Rudi, Levi, Willie, Bobbie, CJ, Geathers have gotten big time deals by management. Yes, MB didn't field a winning product for a long stretch but how many losing seasons have we have under Marvin? Marvin is trying like hell to field a winning team for YOU so show some appriecation and don't give up after 2 disappointing loses early in the season.

I know it might be hard but you let the 90's go, they have new uni's and new attitude!!! Seriously though, this is not your momma's bengals sonny boy!

[HoosierCat]

I understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that a 100% agreement on the mb that the Bengals are gonna win will not make a big difference in the game. If this is supposed to be a pep rally, count me out. I don't think Bengals fans get clowned because they don't predict victory against the current best team in the league. The suggestion that everybody has to get with your program and go all cheerleader or the Pats fans will have more ammo is a little ... cheesy. We're just giving our opinion. I couldn't care less if Bob Kraft's illegitimate son is reading that some Bengals fans don't think they have much chance of winning this game. I've hardly seen anybody comment that they're not gonna watch and the Bengals have no chance at all -- there are a couple of exceptions, but there always are here. Pretty much it looks like to me that the consensus is that every factor except home field advantage currently favors the Pats. They have no significant injuries and we have a ton. They're on fire and we're ... not. The players we're getting back (fingers crossed) with teh exception of Brooks won't be out there this week. That's not rooting, that's just facts. Nonetheless, most reasonable minds think we have a chance and the examples are noted....KC, Denver. Don't worry Tate, most of us haven't given up. I've written a ton of messages basically contending that the reaction to the Seattle game here was extreme. You're right, there is reason to be optimistic. However, the odds are totally stacked against us this Monday and to act like that's not true is kinda disingenuous. Once the ball is kicked-off, of course, I will be totally convinced that we can and should win. As of right now, I'm staring at a pretty big helping of pessimism.

What he said.

[damiancasey]

As I said before...if you HAD to bet your life savings on a team to win THIS MONDAY would it be the Bengals? I'm a lifelong fan but no way would I put my money with the orange and black.

OK - now that we got that out of the way...is there a chance? Of course!! There's also a chance that the Cincinnati Reds will beat the Pats on Monday - a small chance - but a chance indeed.

However the question isn't can we beat the Pats on Monday - the question is can the Bengals not embarrass themselves this season? I think - base on the first three games - the answer to that is probably not. What I saw on Sunday was the mid-90's Bengals - the "let's do everything we can to lose this game Bengals". It broke my heart but I realized that we have at least 2 or 3 seasons before we are going to be any good - that's if Paul Brown allows it to happen.

We are a really really bad team this year, folks and we were totally over-rated in the off season.

wow 2 loses by a combined 9 points and the season is lost and we totally suck. way to believe.

I will say this, every game has been exciting and down to the last minute, as a fan the only thing I could want is for us win a few more, but it's definitely worth the price of admission.

Don't you remember the mid-90's??? Every game was down to the last second for 12 years - and we lost 90% of those games!! I love the Bungles and I'm really not a negative person but "way to believe"? You're looking at the same first 3 games that I did and they're really bad - it's true! You can look at a cow and call it a horse - you can even believe it's a horse - but...it's...still...a...cow...

So your comparing this team to a team in the 90's, did you forget that this team won the division and went 11-5 only two seasons ago.

Why are fans so quick to throw in the towel and write the season off when it just began?

why are fans so quick to throw in the towel? because fans are smart and experienced! because MB is still the owner and is only mildly interested in winning.

We haven't been to the superbowl since 1989. Assuming we don't go this year (I think that's a safe bet) it will have been 18 years! 18 freakin years! After 18 seasons of not going to the big show you start to wise up to what MB's strengths are (and they aint fielding winning superbowl teams.)

Furthermore the majority of those 18 seasons haven't just been non-superbowl seasons...they have been truly pathetic and laughable teams.

So we went 11-5 a couple of seasons ago...big deal...did we go to the playoffs?...NO

There's a difference between being optimistic and being a sucker - I want the Bungles to win on Monday - bad. I'm not going to be a sucker, though and think that management is committed to fielding anything more than a mediocre team.

uh..we went to the playoffs in 2005, don't you remember when Carson got his knee shredded on the second play of the game?

Management has shown their committment by re-signing key players to big time deals, Carson, TJ, Rudi, Levi, Willie, Bobbie, CJ, Geathers have gotten big time deals by management. Yes, MB didn't field a winning product for a long stretch but how many losing seasons have we have under Marvin? Marvin is trying like hell to field a winning team for YOU so show some appriecation and don't give up after 2 disappointing loses early in the season.

I know it might be hard but you let the 90's go, they have new uni's and new attitude!!! Seriously though, this is not your momma's bengals sonny boy!

Okay, okay, okay - right we did go to the wildcard playoffs - sort of like saying you made it to Paul Brown Stadium when you were really only tailgating in the parking lot.

And just because MB is spending more money than he has in the past doesn't mean he's competent OR that he is commited to winning. Remember...this is the guy that brought us Klingler and Shula. Those were judgement calls that HE orchestrated.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Is it just me, or are these Patriot visitors being overly sympathetic?

[BengalszoneBilly]

I'm just hoping the Patriots don't pull anymore cheapshots like they did on Losman:

[Bobcat Bengal]

This is embarassing. And I'm not just directing this at anyone in particular.

I don't want opposing teams fans to come on this board and see us acting this way.

That's kinda the reason why Bengals fans get clowned all the time in public.

Man up guys.....stranger things have happened. Kitna was 1-3 before the bye week too, and look what happened.

We'll be getting some players back soon, Jeanty, Kilmer, Perry, etc.

You guys can bitch and moan if you want and give these Pats fans more ammo.

Me? I'm gonna watch the game, and believe the Bengals have a chance to play with these guys.

They aren't juggernauts.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm pretty sure that a 100% agreement on the mb that the Bengals are gonna win will not make a big difference in the game. If this is supposed to be a pep rally, count me out. I don't think Bengals fans get clowned because they don't predict victory against the current best team in the league. The suggestion that everybody has to get with your program and go all cheerleader or the Pats fans will have more ammo is a little ... cheesy. We're just giving our opinion. I couldn't care less if Bob Kraft's illegitimate son is reading that some Bengals fans don't think they have much chance of winning this game. I've hardly seen anybody comment that they're not gonna watch and the Bengals have no chance at all -- there are a couple of exceptions, but there always are here. Pretty much it looks like to me that the consensus is that every factor except home field advantage currently favors the Pats. They have no significant injuries and we have a ton. They're on fire and we're ... not. The players we're getting back (fingers crossed) with teh exception of Brooks won't be out there this week. That's not rooting, that's just facts. Nonetheless, most reasonable minds think we have a chance and the examples are noted....KC, Denver. Don't worry Tate, most of us haven't given up. I've written a ton of messages basically contending that the reaction to the Seattle game here was extreme. You're right, there is reason to be optimistic. However, the odds are totally stacked against us this Monday and to act like that's not true is kinda disingenuous. Once the ball is kicked-off, of course, I will be totally convinced that we can and should win. As of right now, I'm staring at a pretty big helping of pessimism.

(sigh) you're right.......

I was just trying to adminster a pep talk to the soldiers.

I feel like TJ though, when he said something to the effect of: "I know we can beat this team, they're not better than us."

Then again, that was what, a couple of seasons ago?