Oh Please Let This Be True!

[HoosierCat]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqsF...o&type=lgns

Yes! Please please please construct a passing offense centered around Toothlessburger! We all know just how good an idea it is for him to throw the ball a lot! And yes, please let him audible at the line! If Peyton can do it so can almighty Ben, right?

They do this and I'm tellin' ya the NFL's single-season record for most picks thrown will be in serious jeopardy!

Pittsburgh Steelers: a finesse team. :lmao:

[duus]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqsF...o&type=lgns

Yes! Please please please construct a passing offense centered around Toothlessburger! We all know just how good an idea it is for him to throw the ball a lot! And yes, please let him audible at the line! If Peyton can do it so can almighty Ben, right?

They do this and I'm tellin' ya the NFL's single-season record for most picks thrown will be in serious jeopardy!

Pittsburgh Steelers: a finesse team. :lmao:

They will discover in short order that a defense falls quickly in various statistical categories when your offense does not 'control the clock'. They have lived by that method ... and now will die by the opposite. Then again, they did trade up to get a new punter for a good reason ... he ought to be getting plenty of gametime experience. Well, perhaps ... except for those 3 offensive possessions per game where Benji throws into the waiting arms of the opponent.

[HoosierCat]

Then again, they did trade up to get a new punter for a good reason ... he ought to be getting plenty of gametime experience.

Ah, yes! Now the punter thing finally makes sense!

And the kicker to the story: per Clark Judge, what are Weisenhunt and Grimm doing in Arizona? Why, installing the same offensive philosophy thats being abandoned in Pitt!

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10181745

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqsF...o&type=lgns

Yes! Please please please construct a passing offense centered around Toothlessburger! We all know just how good an idea it is for him to throw the ball a lot! And yes, please let him audible at the line! If Peyton can do it so can almighty Ben, right?

They do this and I'm tellin' ya the NFL's single-season record for most picks thrown will be in serious jeopardy!

Pittsburgh Steelers: a finesse team. :lmao:

You have to be kidding me. Yeah, please. Go right ahead. That guy can't do anything when he's got more than 2 reads or less than 7 seconds to throw.

I can hear it already:

"Is this duck season?"

[HairOnFire]

You've got to wonder what they saw in Ben's performance last season that would make them think he can handle more play calling responsibility?

To be fair, when asked to explain his miserable play last season Ben quickly complained that part of his poor performance was the result of Cowher refusing to allow him to audible, and Whisenhunt refusing to let him call the blocking schemes. So perhaps there's a real problem that needs to be addressed. Then again, Cowher and Whisenhunt were well respected, and Roethlisberger's work and study habits have been repeatedly criticized...if not openly mocked. So at first glance it smacks of a first year head coach bowing to the wants and excuses of a young QB who isn't exactly known for his intelligence or maturity.

But it may work out just fine as the scariest Steeler offense that I can remember recently is the wide open version crafted by Mike Mularchy(SP?). In addition, the Steelers are rapidly approaching a contract point where they'll have to make a huge commitment to Ben or risk losing him...so it's most certainly time to see what he can actually do when the training wheels are taken off. In short, it's time to stop protecting the guy. Determine once and for all if he's really a franchise QB or just a lucky stiff who found himself in the right place at the perfect time.

But you've got to wonder how quickly Ben will attempt to throw Arians and Tomlin under the bus, as he's repeatedly done to Cowher and Whisenhunt, if the Steelers don't have early success.

[HoosierCat]

But it may work out just fine as the scariest Steeler offense that I can remember recently is the wide open version crafted by Mike Mularchy(SP?).

Maybe, but Mularkey's offense was still founded on a power running game, not the pass. That was the gravy. And I'm far from convinced that the addition of Kevan Barlow is the answer. Also, in Mularky's final couple years, when the Steelers went something like 23-8-1, they also had the services of two 1,000-yard receivers in Ward and Plexico. Ward hasn't topped 1,000 yards since '04 (though he's been close) and at 31 is beginning to get bit by the nagging injury bug. The only other wideout they've got worth mentioning is Santonio Holmes. I dunno wh's going to be No. 3, much less 4, in this system. The big bad Cedric Wilson?

And if they are rolling 3-4 receivers out there, what are they going to do with Miller and Spaeth? The Spaeth pick makes no sense at all now.

I do agree with your comment on them coming to a decision point on Toothless, and it does make sense to see if he's for real or was just a brief tease.

[Dawg BpG]

What?

This is the same guy who went Terry Bradshaw last year and they want him to throw more??

WOW

If the past is any indicator, the Browns have tried many "Different, "Better" philosophies as well....every single year....we all know how that has been working out.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Maybe, but Mularkey's offense was still founded on a power running game, not the pass. That was the gravy. And I'm far from convinced that the addition of Kevan Barlow is the answer. Also, in Mularky's final couple years, when the Steelers went something like 23-8-1, they also had the services of two 1,000-yard receivers in Ward and Plexico. Ward hasn't topped 1,000 yards since '04 (though he's been close) and at 31 is beginning to get bit by the nagging injury bug. The only other wideout they've got worth mentioning is Santonio Holmes. I dunno wh's going to be No. 3, much less 4, in this system. The big bad Cedric Wilson?

Not only that, but 'wide open' doesn't necessarily mean lots of decisions. You may have 4 receivers on the field, but really only 2 reads, and you might run out of that formation too. Historically, I think the most successful 'wide open' offenses that didn't have genius QBs used that idea.

If they're serious about giving Worthless more information to process, I can't wait. He won't fare well I think, given his general lack of intelligence and preparation (also possible latent brain damage from a Chrysler).

[jjakq27]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AqsF...o&type=lgns

Yes! Please please please construct a passing offense centered around Toothlessburger! We all know just how good an idea it is for him to throw the ball a lot! And yes, please let him audible at the line! If Peyton can do it so can almighty Ben, right?

They do this and I'm tellin' ya the NFL's single-season record for most picks thrown will be in serious jeopardy!

Pittsburgh Steelers: a finesse team.

You have to be kidding me. Yeah, please. Go right ahead. That guy can't do anything when he's got more than 2 reads or less than 7 seconds to throw.

I can hear it already:

"Is this duck season?"

Wabbit season......

[HairOnFire]

I do agree with your comment on them coming to a decision point on Toothless, and it does make sense to see if he's for real or was just a brief tease.

Based upon his most recent comments Mike Tomlin has made it clear that his fate as a head coach is almost entirely linked to the future of Roethlisberger so I'm not very surprised that the Steelers are willing to change their offensive identity to better match the wants and demands of a young so-called franchise QB.

But the situation smacks a little bit of when the soon-to-be-fired Brownie head coach Chris Palmer attempted to explain the increased number of interceptions being thrown by soon-to-be-busted QB Tim Couch. Something to the effect of...."He's got to start getting better soon because it happens everytime I try to step on the gas."

Well, we all know now that Couch continued to struggle for years. Yet when it came time to make a hard choice about his future the Browns proved the had at least one more bad decision to make by agreeing to pay Couch a roster bonus of more than 8 million bucks. One year later the Browns announced that Couch was no longer the starter and quickly turned to a journeyman QB. Shades of David Carr, right? After all, the Texans gave Carr a 5 million dollar bonus one year before releasing him.

Simply put, I think the Steelers are rapidly approaching the same type of decision in regards to Roethlisberger. His contract status practically demands that they find out once and for all time if he's a true franchise quality QB or simply a modestly talented caretaker unworthy of a huge second contract.

[Dawg BpG]

I do think it is unfair to compare David Carr and the unmentionable to Toothlessburger.

Ben Roth has by far and away the better offensive live and TEAM of those three.

That cannot be disputed.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I do think it is unfair to compare David Carr and the unmentionable to Toothlessburger.

Ben Roth has by far and away the better offensive live and TEAM of those three.

That cannot be disputed.

If Carr had been playing behind the Steelers line he would be an elite QB by now. BIG BEN is good at managing the game ala Jim McMahon but is not an elite/game changing QB.

[BTG]

You guys are acting happy, but this isn't a good thing for the Bengals. It's really not; trust me. We were better off with him lining up with two backs and handing the ball off all game and throwing between 15-20 passes across the field. Why? Because Ben is not much of a traditional "Pro Style" quarterback (duh).

He was always at his best (in college and in the NFL) when he was flanked by four or five receivers running complimentary routes with a single back behind him. Miami actually switched to that offense when he was arrived to maximize his effectiveness, IIRC. It always killed me that people said Ohio State would have been dominant with him there. If he had gone to OSU, he would have been Bobby Hoying version 2.0. He's just not a good quarterback when he has to deal with more tight ends and backs than receivers….ie: the "grind it out style."

Now, as we all know Pittsburgh has run that very style since, oh, just about forever. All they expect their quarterbacks to do is

protect the ball and make one or two plays a game. Two things about this:

1. That is why Kordell was so bad for them…he made entirely too many mistakes.

2. That is why I never understood why the Stealers drafted Ben in the first place.

Seriously, why draft a kid who threw the ball 45 times a game in college and insert him into an offense where his primary function is to take the snap and hand the ball off? It would have been like the Dolphins drafting Marino giving Woody Bennett and Tony Nathan 35 carries a game. Not that I'm saying Ben is comparable to Marino, but had Marino been forced to deal with the type of offense Ben has had to, he never would have turned into the QB he did.

(side note: I've never been a fan of drafting a player and forcing him to adapt to your scheme, yet it happens all the time in the NFL because of "upside" and the arrogance of the coaches. You just watch, someone is going to draft Colt Brennan next year and try to fit him into a WCO system, he'll fail miserably, and people will blame him instead of his stubborn-ass coaches.)

Anyway, with them going to a more wide-open style, it means he'll have fewer reads and be able to make quicker throws -- those are attributes that make the spread a much easier offense to negotiate than your average pro set. As a result, Ben could end up throwing something like 30 touchdowns and 12 interceptions every season.

[duus]

As a result, Ben could end up throwing something like 30 touchdowns and 12 interceptions every season.

I think you got you numbers mixed up there. If the guy throws 30 times a game, he will easily average 3 picks a game as well. I'd be surprised under those circumstances if he ends the season with fewer than 30 INTs.

[BTG]

As a result, Ben could end up throwing something like 30 touchdowns and 12 interceptions every season.

I think you got you numbers mixed up there. If the guy throws 30 times a game, he will easily average 3 picks a game as well. I'd be surprised under those circumstances if he ends the season with fewer than 30 INTs.

If he threw it 30 times out of the I/strong-I type of offense, I'd agree with you. But the spread they seem to want to try out is filled with three step drop throws that exploit zone coverages, are easy to complete (hook/flat combinations ... slant/out combinations ... bunch combos ... level routes ... basic high low reads ... etc), and rarely result in interceptions. It will be like a bastardized version of Texas Tech's Air Raid, and Ben will run that very effectively.

Don't get me wrong, I can't stand the guy. But I also don't let my personal feeling cloud my judgement. I'd love it if he threw 30 picks next year, but I don't think he will. He's a very good quarterback out of a spread offense.

[HoosierCat]

But the spread they seem to want to try out is filled with three step drop throws that exploit zone coverages, are easy to complete (hook/flat combinations … slant/out combinations … level routes and basic high low reads … etc), and rarely result in interceptions. It will be like a bastardized version of Texas Tech's Air Raid, and Ben will run that very effectively.

If that's their plan, it'll be more like a bastardized version of the ol' dink-and-dunk offense featured in Cincy in the pre-Bratkowski days. Now maybe Ben -- like, for instance, Neil O'Donnel -- will exel at completing 3-yard passes on third and five. But that to me moves away from where, from what I've seen of him, he appears most comfortable: the old high school rollout -- cut off half the field, don't think, buy time for Ward to make a move and throw long.

[BTG]

But the spread they seem to want to try out is filled with three step drop throws that exploit zone coverages, are easy to complete (hook/flat combinations … slant/out combinations … level routes and basic high low reads … etc), and rarely result in interceptions. It will be like a bastardized version of Texas Tech's Air Raid, and Ben will run that very effectively.

If that's their plan, it'll be more like a bastardized version of the ol' dink-and-dunk offense featured in Cincy in the pre-Bratkowski days. Now maybe Ben -- like, for instance, Neil O'Donnel -- will exel at completing 3-yard passes on third and five. But that to me moves away from where, from what I've seen of him, he appears most comfortable: the old high school rollout -- cut off half the field, don't think, buy time for Ward to make a move and throw long.

Yea, he's very good on rollout passes, but you can still do that out of the spread. The thing is, it seems that you're not really getting what I'm saying regarding offensive philosophies.

The "dink and dunk" offense is not the same thing as the spread. Not even close. The dink and dunk is basically slant, hitch, and out routes on the outside, with the tight end running a contrary route and the running backs flaring out or running an angle route (it's basically a poor-man's version of the West Coast Offense).

For instance, let's say the outside guys run slants. The tight end runs a quick out and of one the backs flares out to the opposite side of him. If the outside guys run out routes, you can have the tight end run a seam route (if he's fast enough) with the backs running angle routes to the middle of the field.

Basically all the dink and dunk does is compensate for the shortcomings of a quarterback. It's goal is to limit mistakes and stretch the field left and right while keeping your backs and tight end on the field. The reason you don't break big plays out of the dink and dunk is because you're still playing 11 on 11 football.

See, most team's best defensive players are their linebackers, and more and more NFL teams are going to a 3-4 look to increase their talent and speed at the second level. By bringing in four receivers and a quick back (like Willie Parker, who can outrun just about any linebacker in the league), it forces the defense to replace at least two (and sometimes three) of their best players with defensive backs. And honestly, how many teams have four quality cornerbacks? Maybe five or six? Hell, most teams don't even have two.

So in the spread, you're looking to isolate your receivers outside, create mismatches across the field, stretch the field both left and right AND vertically, and find open spaces in zones by flooding them with offensive players. All of those goals falls under the category of "spread offense."

But let's go back to the stretching the field horizontally and vertically and isolating your receivers for a moment. The more you stretch the defense from left to right, the more likely the less experienced/talented corners are to lose discipline/patience and get beaten deep.

Here's an example:

Let's say you line up with trips right. The outside receiver runs a drag route (two steps forward, hard cut inside, run parallel to LOS), the middle receiver runs a five yard hitch, and the inside receiver runs a quick out. Against man to man defense, the drag route is a decoy, while the hitch serves to kind of "pick" the inside corner, leaving the out route wide open. With the other players on the defense manned up and flowing inside, this allows the receiver running an out route to basically play one on one football with the man covering him after he makes the catch.

On the flip side of that, if you beat a defense with that a few times during the course of a game, the younger corner covering the inside receiver is eventually going to undercut (jump) the route to try and make a play. A good offensive coordinator will anticipate this, and the next time he calls the play the inside receiver will run a wheel route (out and up), resulting in a huge play.

Things like that are common out of the spread, which is the type of offense Ben ran in college...and he ran it well, I might add, as evidenced by his 37 touchdowns and 12 INTS his final season in Oxford.

[Stripes]

I'm not pleased or displeased by this. I've never been at all convinced that Ben automatically struggles when he has to throw more passes than usual... that sounds like biased Bengals fans looking for strands of hope to cling to, honestly.

I fully expect Big Ben to have a good year in 2007, even if his role is to be increased a great deal.

[BTG]

I'm not pleased or displeased by this. I've never been at all convinced that Ben automatically struggles when he has to throw more passes than usual... that sounds like biased Bengals fans looking for strands of hope to cling to, honestly.

I fully expect Big Ben to have a good year in 2007, even if his role is to be increased a great deal.

I'm sorry, all I can do is stare at your signature. What? I'm the devil...ok. boooooooobies.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not pleased or displeased by this.

Agreed. I tried to point out that I can see legit reasons for switching to a more wide open passing attack, and that's actually true for additional reasons that don't have much to do with Roethlisberger. The Steeler offensive line isn't as good as it once was and the biggest asset in their once premier power running game is currently making commercials. (Call me Bus.) All of these things dictate changes, and the Steelers wouldn't be the first team to attempt covering up emerging cracks in their O-line by emphasizing shorter and quicker throws or more audibles. Whether Roethlisberger can become an elite QB running this type of attack is yet to be seen, and his poor work and study habits suggest he may not be, but it's just as true that the Steelers aren't the same team they were just two years ago. And there's the rub, because last season went a long way towards proving that Roethlisberger is a slow reacting mistake prone QB when his protection breaks down....as it increasing will do when facing playoff teams.

[HoosierCat]

Yea, he's very good on rollout passes, but you can still do that out of the spread. The thing is, it seems that you're not really getting what I'm saying regarding offensive philosophies.

The "dink and dunk" offense is not the same thing as the spread. Not even close. The dink and dunk is basically slant, hitch, and out routes on the outside, with the tight end running a contrary route and the running backs flaring out or running an angle route (it's basically a poor-man's version of the West Coast Offense).

I know the difference, why do you think I borrowed your "bastardized" term? You apparently missed my point earlier about how poorly they are set up to run this from a personnel standpoint. Who are going to be the 3-4-5 WRs who stretch the field? If that's their plan, why Spaeth? And they just took Heath Miller a couple drafts ago. They are much more suited for a two-WR, two-TE set then 3-4 wideouts -- unles they plan to leave an empty backfield and no one does that as an every-down formation. Far more likely, I think, that this "spread" will feature two wideouts and two TEs, with either Spaeth or Miller lining up sometimes on the line and sometimes in the slot, a la Dallas Clark. Pitt is going to call what they're doing a spread, but I will bet you it ends up a lot more dink-dunk than bombs away.

[GapControl]

this offensive philosophy discussion is fantastic. we need more of such on the site.

[BTG]

Yea, he's very good on rollout passes, but you can still do that out of the spread. The thing is, it seems that you're not really getting what I'm saying regarding offensive philosophies.

The "dink and dunk" offense is not the same thing as the spread. Not even close. The dink and dunk is basically slant, hitch, and out routes on the outside, with the tight end running a contrary route and the running backs flaring out or running an angle route (it's basically a poor-man's version of the West Coast Offense).

I know the difference, why do you think I borrowed your "bastardized" term? You apparently missed my point earlier about how poorly they are set up to run this from a personnel standpoint. Who are going to be the 3-4-5 WRs who stretch the field? If that's their plan, why Spaeth? And they just took Heath Miller a couple drafts ago. They are much more suited for a two-WR, two-TE set then 3-4 wideouts -- unles they plan to leave an empty backfield and no one does that as an every-down formation. Far more likely, I think, that this "spread" will feature two wideouts and two TEs, with either Spaeth or Miller lining up sometimes on the line and sometimes in the slot, a la Dallas Clark. Pitt is going to call what they're doing a spread, but I will bet you it ends up a lot more dink-dunk than bombs away.

I don't mean to be condescending, so my apologies if I came off as a pompous ass. I know tend to get a bit preachy when I'm talking about the X's and O's of football. I just love doing so.

I see what you're saying, but in a spread offense, you really don't need wideouts like Chad, TJ, and Chris Henry. I mean, look at what Hawaii and Texas Tech have done over the past five years or so. For the most part they have mediocre athletes at receiver, and that's ok, because they all share three common attributes: above average hands, intelligence, and group chemistry. (Yes, I am aware that NCAA ball is different than the NFL, but we're talking about a specific offense here, and those are the three most important skills.)

Hands are obvious, and I won't go into detail there. Their intelligence deals with their ability to coordinate with the quarterback at the line when they see what the defense is doing. They have to be able to see what kind of coverage they're going to be facing and determine whether or not they need to change or adjust the length of their route (obviously they don't want to be running a two-move route if there's a blitz coming, etc.). The last one is just as important as the other two, and deals with receivers running their routes within a foot of each other and never so much as bumping. By playing together and knowing the other's timing, they understand exactly what, when and how the other is going to be doing, and they use it to screw up the defense.

(Now, obviously it's better to have a group of receivers with those attributes along with athletic ability, but you can get away without it in the spread.)

Of course, I'm not saying the Steelers have that sort of chemistry yet, but it can be learned through practice, while the intelligence can be developed through film study and game repetition. On the other hand, they do have receivers with good hands and athletic ability. For instance, they could line up with four wides, and have Ward and Robinson on the outside and Holmes and Washington on the inside. Hell, they could even rotate Willie Reid in and out of the slot, as he is a very dangerous player once he gets the ball in his hands, and has the potential to make big plays when matched up one on one with a dime back and isolated on the outside.

With the right amount of practice before the season, they could be a decent stopgap until they can get a few players in there over the next year or two to complete the transition.

[HoosierCat]

I don't mean to be condescending…I just tend to get a bit preachy when I'm talking about the X's and O's of football. So my apologies if I came off as a pompous ass.

Nah, you're fine.

I see what you're saying, but in a spread offense, you really don't need wideouts like Chad, TJ, and Chris Henry. I mean, look at what Hawaii and Texas Tech have done over the past five years or so. For the most part they have mediocre athletes at receiver, and that's ok, because they all share three common attributes: above average hands, intelligence, and group chemistry. (Yes, I am aware that NCAA ball is different than the NFL, but we're talking about a specific offense here, and those are the three most important skills.)

I get you. But I think you may be underestimating the gap between college and pro ball. It's a rare team that can go far in this league with a collection of average receivers (unless, of coure, your QB's name is Tom Brady...). And if the thinking in Pitt is following yours, that they ought to switch because Toothless was successful running a spread in college, I would submit there's an even bigger gap between the MAC and the NFL.

Assuming Tomlin isn't just blowing smoke, it all seems like a pointless gamble to me. The Steelers offense under Big Ben has hardly been struggling (it ranked 5th last year, its best finish under him). And since he's been in the pros, every time he's been asked to throw more it's been a disaster. Maybe you're right and this brings back the collegiate Ben, but I'm going to keep my chip on "interception machine" for the time being.

[BTG]

It's funny, after I posted, I went back and edited in this:

(Yes, I am aware that NCAA ball is different than the NFL, but we're talking about a specific offense here, and those are the three most important skills.)

lol