Two wasted draft picks

[BengalByTheBay]

If HOF and Hoosier don't stop agreeing I'm headed down to my bunker -- the end of the world may be neigh.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The first wasted draft pick I think everybody would agree with me on is taking Jeff Rowe in the 5th round, when you could have signed a rookie free agent that is just as good.

I can't believe this thread is now two pages long and nobody has bothered asking which undrafted QB's were better.

No one asked because it's a completely preposterous notion on face (see the debate regarding Warner, the sole undrafted QB of any note in recent history).

Besides, why draft a QB when we could go back to the well with Doug Johnson and Radio?

[Tasher]

Eh, none but Hall, Irons, White are going to make this club, so we should have just let our time expire on our picks so that we just didn't have any draft picks after the 4th round. Yeah, thats the ticket.

[ArmyBengal]

Rowe is in no way shape or form a wasted pick... He's big and tall and has the tools all NFL teams look for in a prospect: He's accurate, can throw the deep pass, and is mobile. Is he a project ?? Sure, but it's not like we can't afford to have someone like that on the roster and who better to train behind than Carson ?? He came from a "gadget" type offense that ran out of the shotgun alot, but the coaches like his pocket presence and I personally like the fact that he brings something a little different to the table. I like the pick and I can't wait to see him get some reps with our guys. God knows I'm getting sick of seeing the carousel of BS quarterbacks that have filtered through our team. Even if he is a PS QB, he will be more than OK !!!

As for Dookie, it's just stupid to call a 7th round comp pick wasted... If nothing else, the kid is big and isn't afraid to hit, so a ST guy wouldn't hurt in the least...

WHODEY !!!

[WretchedOne]

Taking Leon Hall was the only "waste" of a pick.

I like all the other picks, ESPECIALLY Chinedum Ndukwe.

With Chinny - first off, the guy played out of position for 2 years in the ND secondary. Chinny is a SS, not a FS. ND had him lined up as a FS. The Bengals have moved him to SS, a position he could potentially thrive in.

2nd - He's still new to the position, only been playing S for 2/3 years.

3rd - he is not as bad in coverage as everyone wants to believe he is. Point Blank, you don't get 6 PBUs if you suck in coverage and Chinny has produced 6 PBUs in each of his 2 starting seasons at S, thats 12 PBUs in 2 seasons for a player who's not in his natual spot. (A lot of PBUs is a good thing, Ints can be tipped, batted, etc. PBUs...the player needs to break the pass up when the ball gets to the player. Just look to Joseph with his 19 PBUs in 2006.)

4th - With #3, the Bengals simply would not take a S if they thought he couldn't cover. Coverage ability for the Bengals safeties is #1, if they can't cover, no use. If the Bengals took Chinny, then they must think he can hold up in coverage.

Give Chinny some time, let the NFL coaches work with him. He's an NFL caliber athlete and thats the one thing that can't be taught. All his other problems are fixable.

The Bengals have high hopes even for their 7th round players, you don't think they took Chinny and expect nothing from him?

Yes, Chinny even has starter potential as a SS after a season of learning.

[ArmyBengal]

I'll agree to disagree about Hall being a waste of a pick... Many had him as a top 10 pick and the best CB in the draft FOREVER and didn't fall behind Revis until right before the draft (due to hype) in my opinion (but I like Revis)... There wasn't much more I would have wanted for our defense outside of maybe Nelson at that point, but we got White later and am happy with that pick. I would much rather Hall and White as opposed to Nelson and some other CB on day two... Beason was there, but with Hartwell in the mix, I'm not concerned. The only other argument might have been to take Olsen, which would have caused many to just EXPLODE !!! Just can't see calling possibly the best CB in the draft taken at #18 a waste... Just my thoughts.

WHODEY !!!

[GapControl]

Why is Hall a waste of a pick? Did you want a LB or some other position instead? And if so, Deltha not getting younger and Ratliff is below average.

[Walrus]

The thing that bugged me about the Rowe pick (aside from the fact that there were several far better-known QBs available at that spot

you think there was a better choice but I'll go with Marvin & Co.

Totally agree. I still don't know why Bramlet odd man out in the backup QB derby.

Well things aren't looking good for him this year either since redskins took jordan.

I'll go with Marvin and Co too -- I was just including that fact in my post as a reflection of a lot of the angst and venom I've seen associated with the pick -- angst that may turn out to be justified. It's just not my main beef. My beef is that the team hasn't shown much patience with young backups in the recent past. Spending a 5th round pick on a guy I'm not sure they'll have the patience to develop seemed like a potential waste.

Also, that Bramlet is not thriving with in DC is not proof of anything, as far as I'm concerned -- as Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell and others might tell you, the Redskins are not a great place for young developing QBs. I just hope Jordan can buck that trend...

[WretchedOne]

Why I don't like Leon Hall:

1. His entire career, he's had dominating defensive lines in front him making his job a whole lot easier. Michigan is well known for the dlines, but why did he say "lines"? Well, there is the matter of the Senior Bowl where once again, Leon had a dominating dline in front of him. Go back and read some reports from this year, see how much the North dline is talked about...(Carriker and Okoye [and Mebane] were on that dline)

Leon has stuggled badly when his Dline has struggled badly...OSU(Ginn)...USC(Jarrett) and now he's a Bengal?.....

He's had dlines (front 7) that can create pressure and shut down the run, the Bengals respectivly rank well below average in each category.

2. The Bengals have even admitted that he's a not a stand alone CB. What the HELL is he doing on this team then? Would you trust Hall on an island like you would Jospeh? Would you trust Hall on an island like you would with Deltha? And they want him to be pushing for a staring role by the mid-point of the season?

3. DELTHA IS FINE and can be a productive player for at least another 2, probably 3 seasons. Why does no one ever say a positive word about this guy now? IT'S ALL "what if...insert negative comment regarding Deltha." If Deltha had had a decent 2006 season, I GUARANTEE that NO ONE would have been yacking about the Bengals needing a CB this year. Guy had a "down" year and everyone thinks he'll now turn into Tory James, he won't. If I was Deltha I'd be pissed, the Bengals have given him the finger, I wouldn't be surprised if he gave it back.

(In all actuality, Deltha's 2006 season was A LOT like his 2004 season. Same # of games played (12), same # of TTs, 3 more Ints (1/06, 4/04), but was only 3 PBUs off his 2004 total of 11. He only went on to have a pro-bowl year the following season.)

The Bengals would have been better off taking a safety day 1 (Sabby Piscitelli, who...is filling Dexter Jackson's starting role down in Tampa, hmmm...he can hit people as well.) and drafting a 4th round CB who was a "gem." That gem would have provided the same fire, he would have provided the same depth and he would have been a HELL of a lot cheaper.

(They really should have traded with the Browns so the Browns could have taken Quinn at 18. The Bengals still could have gotten Irons in such a deal.)

Hell, they could have just drafted Griffin in the 1st, Irons in the 2nd, a CB in the 4th and the rest of the draft as it was. At least they wouldn't have gotten ripped off in the 1st round. Rumor had Griffin as the Bengals #3 man behind the 2 CBs.

4. Am I really supposed to be impressed by the "Leon was the #1/2 CB in this class" stuff? This class was HORRIBLE. Go back and look at the year Pacman Jones was drafted. That year, 3 CBs all went before the 10th pick, thats a good class. Then you look at this year when the "#1 CB" in the class "fell" to 14th and then the #2 fell to 18?????? Wha????...you start to get a picture of how bad this class really was. When there are lock down guys, they don't last, especially to 18.

The game of what if is dumb but...what if Cromartie and Jospeh has stayed in school, which would have put them in this draft and Marcus McCauley didn't have his head up his ass his senior season? Suddenly, Revis and Hall are STRUGGLING to be ranked in the top 5.

[Kazkal]

So Jjoe didn't go till the 24th pick of the draft does that mean hall is a better CB?

The 1st CB didn't go till the 15th pick in 2006 and Jjoe was 3rd CB taken 6th DB and he was best CB and I may be homer but I think he'll be better DB then any of the safety's who go before him.

7 Oakland Michael Huff - CB (ESPN had him listed a CB even though he's a S)

8 Buffalo Donte Whitner - S

15 St. Louis Tye Hill - CB

16 Miami Jason Allen - S

19 San Diego Antonio Cromartie - CB

24 Cincinnati Johnathan Joseph - CB

[SkinneymulleT]

1. His entire career, he's had dominating defensive lines in front him making his job a whole lot easier. Michigan is well known for the dlines,

Known for having lazy fat d lineman that no one will touch early in the 1st round.

[Kazkal]

Gabe and Branch did seem to be overrated woodley was a nice DE but was a overachiever...

[HoosierCat]

Leon has stuggled badly when his Dline has struggled badly...OSU(Ginn)...USC(Jarrett) and now he's a Bengal?.....

All corners struggle when their d-line struggles; that's a football truism. That the Bengals seem hell-bent on building from the back forward instead of the other way around isn't Hall's fault. As for bad games against Ginn and Jarret, how many top-caliber NFL corners have had bad games against Chad Johnson or Randy Moss? That's why elite receivers get paid the big bucks. Hall will be fine.

The Bengals have even admitted that he's a not a stand alone CB. What the HELL is he doing on this team then?

Um, playing in the zone they usually use...why?

DELTHA IS FINE and can be a productive player for at least another 2, probably 3 seasons. Why does no one ever say a positive word about this guy now?

Well, let's see, how about he's a 30 year old corner who has struggled with injury and whose hallmark on the field is wild inconsistency? Yeah, that'd be it.

[CarsonCity]

If Deltha had had a decent 2006 season, I GUARANTEE that NO ONE would have been yacking about the Bengals needing a CB this year.

Ya think? If Akili Smith played like Joe Montana I GUARANTEE that NO ONE would've been yacking about the Bengals needing a new QB in the 2003 draft. But Akili sucked, so they upgraded. Deltha was a big let-down last year, so they upgraded. Leon Hall will be a great competition/replacement for Deltha O'Neal.

[WretchedOne]

So Jjoe didn't go till the 24th pick of the draft does that mean hall is a better CB?

The 1st CB didn't go till the 15th pick in 2006 and Jjoe was 3rd CB taken 6th DB and he was best CB and I may be homer but I think he'll be better DB then any of the safety's who go before him.

I didn't say last year was strong either. Hill was the first CB taken and Cromartie and Jospeh lasted that long because they were largely unproven, even in the college ranks. Cromartie had never even started more than one game and was coming off an ACL injury. Joseph was a JUCO transfer to SC in 2004 and he ended up missing that season with a broken foot. The only D1 level competition he saw was in 2005.

I really don't know what you're tying to get at.

1. His entire career, he's had dominating defensive lines in front him making his job a whole lot easier. Michigan is well known for the dlines,

Known for having lazy fat d lineman that no one will touch early in the 1st round.

Go look up Michigan's rankings in run D, pass rush D for 2006. Regardless of how far Alan Branch fell, it still does not negate the fact that Michigan had a very strong D in 2006 or that they usally field a very solid defense with importance on the Dline.

If Deltha had had a decent 2006 season, I GUARANTEE that NO ONE would have been yacking about the Bengals needing a CB this year. Guy had a "down" year and everyone thinks he'll now turn into Tory James, he won't.

Ya think? If Akili Smith played like Joe Montana I GUARANTEE that NO ONE would've been yacking about the Bengals needing a new QB in the 2003 draft. But Akili sucked, so they upgraded. Deltha was a big let-down last year, so they upgraded. Leon Hall will be a great competition/replacement for Deltha O'Neal.

Picking, choosing and being extremely selective is not...mature. Leaving out the last line makes your comment seem more valid, but once you add in the last one, not so much. Deltha has talent and has proven it, Smith always sucked and never showed anything.

Leon Hall IS NOT an upgrade over Deltha. If/When Leon ever does take over, JOSEPH will be the one taking over Deltha's spot, not Leon. Hall will become the 2nd coming of Tory and the #2 CB.

[WretchedOne]

Leon has stuggled badly when his Dline has struggled badly...OSU(Ginn)...USC(Jarrett) and now he's a Bengal?.....

All corners struggle when their d-line struggles; that's a football truism. That the Bengals seem hell-bent on building from the back forward instead of the other way around isn't Hall's fault. As for bad games against Ginn and Jarret, how many top-caliber NFL corners have had bad games against Chad Johnson or Randy Moss? That's why elite receivers get paid the big bucks. Hall will be fine.

The Bengals have even admitted that he's a not a stand alone CB. What the HELL is he doing on this team then?

Um, playing in the zone they usually use...why?

DELTHA IS FINE and can be a productive player for at least another 2, probably 3 seasons. Why does no one ever say a positive word about this guy now?

Well, let's see, how about he's a 30 year old corner who has struggled with injury and whose hallmark on the field is wild inconsistency? Yeah, that'd be it.

Hall would get toasted by Randy Moss.

Zone? They really have seemed to go for guys who hold down their own in man coverage in the past. Deltha, JJ, Madieu...I don't really know the answer but it seemed the Bengals played a lot more zone type coverage in 2006 than they normally do. The Bengals have always just seemed to put emphasis on guys who are shut-down type players more than zone type players. Why would they take a zone player if they like cover guys? Why would they target cover guys when then play mainly zone? Again, I may be wrong but Marvin has always seemed to prefer the guys who he can trust on an island.

Wildly inconsistant? He got in the doghouse with Shanny in Denver, so that dosen't even count in my mind. The Broncos are a loony bunch...Maurice Clarett. He's had some injury issues, but he's produced on the field when he's been on it, whats not consistant about that? He simply had a chaotic year where he was injured before the season even started, got arrested for DUI and the rumor is that he got himself in some deep do-do with his family life, I can see how he would become distracted. Are we going to sit here and bash on Deltha for the 04 season? The season he spent getting acclimated to the Bengals D, only to have a pro-bowl season the next?

God, the media has just pounded and pounded this "Deltha is no longer any good" crap to death, it's old and it sucks to see that everyone just eats it up. If could see the sense in the argument, I would agree, but I see no sense in any of it.

I mean, why didn't the Bengals jump all over Brady Quinn in case something happens to Palmer, he slacked off in 2006 compared to his 2005!!!!! And Palmer has an injury history as well....

Deltha:

04: Learing new system

05: Good numbers!

06: Not as good as 05

Birth year: 1977

Carson:

04: 1st starting season

05: Good numbers!

05: Not as good as 05

Birth year: 1979

You all probably think that'd be pretty dumb and make no sense, well thats how I see this Hall/O'neal situation.

[Kazkal]

I don't think Hall will be as good as Jjoe,But I don't think they wanted to risk it with a boom or bust like chris houston....Hall was a safe pick probbley the most ready CB who may not end up a probowler but a solid starter to go along with a probowler

Btw people wanna talk about hall getting burned by 2 of this years best WR's,Yet what top WR's did Revis face? and Ross had same knocks as hall did.

[WretchedOne]

I don't think Hall will be as good as Jjoe,But I don't think they wanted to risk it with a boom or bust like chris houston....Hall was a safe pick probbley the most ready CB who may not end up a probowler but a solid starter to go along with a probowler

Btw people wanna talk about hall getting burned by 2 of this years best WR's,Yet what top WR's did Revis face? and Ross had same knocks as hall did.

Joseph >>>>> Hall anyday! I really just don't think they needed one as bad as everyone thinks. Improved tackling will and would have helped a lot more than Leon Hall is going to.

They talk about how great of a technician Leon is, how smart he is, yet he gets beat by a WR that can basically just run real fast in a straight line and barely knows how any other run routes????

Leon runs a 4.39 while Jarrett runs a 4.6, yet who got the best of who?

(I also got to watch Leon give up a TD to Rhema McKnight on some ND highlights)

[Kazkal]

Joseph >>>>> Hall anyday! I really just don't think they needed one as bad as everyone thinks. Improved tackling will and would have helped a lot more than Leon Hall is going to.

Tackling is supposed be one of his strs and something that Oneal and Tory left to be desired ....I would have loved Fred Bennett in round 2 myself but I still wouldn't say hall was a wasted pick....Sure one of the Safety's would have been nice but remember we have the best safety in the draft in Marvin White.

[derekshank]

Zone? They really have seemed to go for guys who hold down their own in man coverage in the past.

They've been playing the zone since Marvin got here. They aren't likely to change... so what's the complaint?

God, the media has just pounded and pounded this "Deltha is no longer any good" crap to death, it's old and it sucks to see that everyone just eats it up. If could see the sense in the argument, I would agree, but I see no sense in any of it.

What are you talking about? The "media" didn't go after Deltha. I haven't heard the media talk about O'Neal at all actually. They've gone after Chris Henry from the beginning. Bengal fans are the ones pissed at O'Neal.

Besides... the Bengals needed a CB because Tory left... not just because Deltha's an idiot. CB was a need for a variety of reasons.

I mean, why didn't the Bengals jump all over Brady Quinn in case something happens to Palmer, he slacked off in 2006 compared to his 2005!!!!! And Palmer has an injury history as well....

Deltha:

04: Learing new system

05: Good numbers!

06: Not as good as 05

Birth year: 1977

Carson:

04: 1st starting season

05: Good numbers!

05: Not as good as 05

Birth year: 1979

Really? That's your argument? A league MVP candidate after only 8 months of rehab from a shredded knee compared to a guy who lost his passion for playing football. Yeah... that's the same.

[membengal]

I am compelled to wonder when people go off the deep end on UM draft picks to the Bengals, cards on the table and all, Wretched, are you one of the die-hard OSU fans? Someone who is so biased you can barely function? It's perhaps a fair question...

[HoosierCat]

Hall would get toasted by Randy Moss.

Yeah, and Champ Bailey got toasted by Chad. So by your logic I guess Champ sucks...

Zone?

Yeah, y'know, the soft zone that lots of people, including me, hate? But they operate out of it most of the time, and it might actually work if the line got some pressure (as it was doing some in '05, which helped the secondary land all those picks).

Wildly inconsistant?

Yeah, and I'm not talking about Denver. In 3 years in stripes he's never managed to play a full season. One year, 10 picks, the other two a combined five. He's 30 now and will turn 31 next January -- and we all know just how quickly a corner can slow down (see James, Tory).

God, the media has just pounded and pounded this "Deltha is no longer any good" crap to death

Fine, let's assume Deltha plays lights out this season -- you'd rather have Ratliff as the No. 3 corner? Damn, let's hope O'Neal and JJ stay healthy because if Hall sucks, Ratliff by comparision is a black hole of suck.

[HoTbOy]

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something here are people saying that LHall was a wasted pick because of 2 games were he did not play his best...I can't fault anyone for there opinion but to say wasted pick because of that...I remember 2 years ago on Monday night football against Denver, CJohnson lit up CBailey( the supposed best CB in the league) all night, but this year CBailey got the best of CJohnson, so I'm waiting to see what some KCoyle teaching will do before I say wasted pick...CPerry now there is your wasted pick..

[CarsonCity]

Picking, choosing and being extremely selective is not...mature. Leaving out the last line makes your comment seem more valid, but once you add in the last one, not so much. Deltha has talent and has proven it, Smith always sucked and never showed anything.

Leon Hall IS NOT an upgrade over Deltha. If/When Leon ever does take over, JOSEPH will be the one taking over Deltha's spot, not Leon. Hall will become the 2nd coming of Tory and the #2 CB.

Uhhh, instead of JJoe and Deltha, it'll be JJoe and Leon Hall. I might not be "mature" enough, but that looks like Leon Hall is replacing Deltha O'Neal.

I'm not sure why you're so gung-ho over a CB that, by just about any knowledgeable fan's account (including my own), had a pretty bad year. Even Marvin bascially called him out. If you want a CB that was burned over and over again by slow TEs and what not, then so be it. I'll take my chances with the guy who most considered to be a top 10 draft pick.

I think membengal is on to something, this whole argument reeks of OSU homerism. But then again, I guess I'm just not...mature.

[cincy9275]

i read in a old sports illustrated that the reason bronco's wanted to trade deltha is because he is a alcoholic. so there's the problem. so unless he's done something about drinking i would think that is a major reason for his on the field problems.