Justin Signs Franchise Tender

[HoosierCat]

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6039

Be interesting to see if the Bengals try to work out a long-term deal, or if they are just renting his services for one last year.

[bwillycuse]

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6039

Be interesting to see if the Bengals try to work out a long-term deal, or if they are just renting his services for one last year.

Glad he signed and will be present for minicamp. At least we know he will be giving his all. He will be on center stage now being franchise tagged. Hopefully we sign him to a deal for a lower salary cap hit. If not we will get great play in a contract year. And if everything works out with the linebackers and with the secondary...we can focus on dline next year in the draft.

Now let PacMan win his appeal(grandfathered in) and have Henry do the same.

[bengal4life]

I'm just glad he's not as stubborn as Briggs.

[HairOnFire]

I'm a Smith fan so I'd love to see him stay long term if a more reasonable contrct can be agreed upon. That said, next seasons draft is shaping up to be extremely deep at DE, and it's a position where elite prospects at that position can be expected to step in and play at a high level almost immediately.

[Walrus]

I'm a Smith fan so I'd love to see him stay long term if a more reasonable contrct can be agreed upon. That said, next seasons draft is shaping up to be extremely deep at DE, and it's a position where elite prospects at that position can be expected to step in and play at a high level almost immediately.

What would you see as a reasonable contract?

[JoePong]

http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=6039

Be interesting to see if the Bengals try to work out a long-term deal, or if they are just renting his services for one last year.

Justin Smith is going to be a Bengal for a long time. I don't know why everyone thinks he'll be gone after this year. It's getting ridiculous.

I'm a Smith fan so I'd love to see him stay long term if a more reasonable contrct can be agreed upon. That said, next seasons draft is shaping up to be extremely deep at DE, and it's a position where elite prospects at that position can be expected to step in and play at a high level almost immediately.

What would you see as a reasonable contract?

Reasonable for one of the very best all-around DEs in the NFL is still pretty pricey. But he's worth it. He's pretty much irreplaceable. Can't think of too many players that are able to do what he does.

[HoosierCat]

What would you see as a reasonable contract?

I think you'd have to look at the recent deal signed by Saints DE Charles Grant. Grant is roughly comparable in performance to Justin. He got a 7-year deal pegged at $63 million ($20 million guaranteed) if he hits all the bells and whistles, a cool $9 million/year average.

But if you look at bit deeper, it's actually a less than that. Per espn.com, the contract pays out a total of $35 million in the first five years. Which means that something like $28 million is backloaded into the last two years -- money Grant doesn't have a chance in hell of ever seeing. Really, Grant's deal is a 5-year deal averaging $7 million/year.

And that's about what I've been figuring it would take to get Justin long-term, $7 million a year. I think that's high for him, but not indefensible. But getting a deal done will probably require the Bengals to play the same kind of backloading game the Saints did, and that's something they've always refused to do. Given that, I would say that total dollars is less of a barrier to getting something done than is structure and guaranteed coin amounts. But that's pretty par for the course in Cincy. We'll see how it goes.

[Walrus]

What would you see as a reasonable contract?

I think you'd have to look at the recent deal signed by Saints DE Charles Grant. Grant is roughly comparable in performance to Justin. He got a 7-year deal pegged at $63 million ($20 million guaranteed) if he hits all the bells and whistles, a cool $9 million/year average.

But if you look at bit deeper, it's actually a less than that. Per espn.com, the contract pays out a total of $35 million in the first five years. Which means that something like $28 million is backloaded into the last two years -- money Grant doesn't have a chance in hell of ever seeing. Really, Grant's deal is a 5-year deal averaging $7 million/year.

And that's about what I've been figuring it would take to get Justin long-term, $7 million a year. I think that's high for him, but not indefensible. But getting a deal done will probably require the Bengals to play the same kind of backloading game the Saints did, and that's something they've always refused to do. Given that, I would say that total dollars is less of a barrier to getting something done than is structure and guaranteed coin amounts. But that's pretty par for the course in Cincy. We'll see how it goes.

So we'd be looking at something like a 5 year, 35-40 mil deal? Not much cap relief this year... I guess as the cap goes up over the next few years it gets more manageable, but I don't really see Mike going for that...

[HoosierCat]

So we'd be looking at something like a 5 year, 35-40 mil deal? Not much cap relief this year... I guess as the cap goes up over the next few years it gets more manageable, but I don't really see Mike going for that...

I think that's the ballpark, yeah. But it's not as bad as it sounds. Assume a 5-year, $36 million deal with $21 million guaranteed, which just edges the first 5 years of Grant's deal. No real reason to look for cap relief for this year now; if this were February it'd be different. So burn the whole $8.6 million in space you've hoarded for him all year. Give him $2 million salary, a $4.6 million roster bonus and the first $10 million of a two-tiered signing bonus in '07. That's an $8.6 million cap hit.

Year 2, second tier of SB worth $4 million, $1.2 million roster bonus, $2.5 million salary. Cap hit falls to $6.7 million.

Year 3, $1.2 million roster bonus, $3 million salary. $7.2 million vs. the cap.

Year 4, $3.5 million salary. $6.5 million cap hit.

Year 5, $4 million salary, $7 million cap hit.

[Kazkal]

97.7 % of defensive snaps damn.

[Stripes]

Seven million a year would be quite a bit, but that's what players of his caliber are commanding nowadays I guess. As our best defensive player, he's worth it.

[HairOnFire]

I think you'd have to look at the recent deal signed by Saints DE Charles Grant. Grant is roughly comparable in performance to Justin. He got a 7-year deal pegged at $63 million ($20 million guaranteed) if he hits all the bells and whistles, a cool $9 million/year average.

But if you look at bit deeper, it's actually a less than that. Per espn.com, the contract pays out a total of $35 million in the first five years. Which means that something like $28 million is backloaded into the last two years -- money Grant doesn't have a chance in hell of ever seeing. Really, Grant's deal is a 5-year deal averaging $7 million/year.

Yeah, I can't see the Bengals biting on a 7 year deal. Knowing the Bengals way of doing business I wouldn't be surprised to see a 5-year contract averaging slightly more than Grant got...say 7.25 million.

[djdannos]

Here is how Grants contract breaks down...6.75/yr for 5 yrs..

Grant's contract paid him an initial signing bonus of $12 million and calls for an $8 million roster bonus next spring. The base salaries are $700,000 (2007), $750,000 (2008), $1.85 million (2009), $4 million (2010), $4.5 million (2011), $5 million (2012) and $8 million (2013). There are $100,000 offseason workout bonuses in 2007 and 2008 and workout bonuses of $250,000 each from 2009-2013. The contract also includes roster bonuses of $500,000 for 2011, $1 million for 2012, and $5 million for 2013. Grant has an extremely livable cap charge of $2.8 million for 2007, but that skyrockets to an exorbitant $10.85 million in 2008. New Orleans will reduce that by converting the $8 million roster bonus Grant is due next spring into a signing bonus, which will then allow the team to prorate it. Chances are Grant will never see the $19.5 million in total compensation in the final two years of the contract. But the deal still pays $23.75 million in its first three seasons, $28 million in the first four and $33.25 million in the first five years.

[HoosierCat]

Justin's agent pours some cold water on the long-term deal talk...

Jim Steiner, Smith’s agent, said he’s not overly optimistic about getting such a deal done.

“I only say that because I would think if it was going to happen it would have happened by now,” Steiner said. “They know the market, they know what it would take, but we haven’t talked about a long-term deal for several months. I would think with his character and the kind of guy he is that they would want to sign him for longer than ’07, but we’ll have to see.”

Steiner said the Bengals told him right away that they would never rescind the tender and make him a free agent when much of the money around the NFL was dried up.

“If Justin Smith thought that they were going to pull the offer, he never would have signed it because there is plenty of money out there that he would have been paid,” Steiner said. “This is about Justin being a team player and being in there (for the voluntarys) and looking to have a big year for the team and individually.

“He looked at it very pragmatically,” Steiner said. “He’s looking at being a free agent after this season. He doesn’t see it negatively. He likes the team, he likes the city, and the franchise number is a big number.”

Steiner said he sought a clause in which the Bengals would agree not to make Smith the franchise free agent again in 2008, “but they wouldn’t do it.”

“If they make him that again then he would make about $20 million in ’07 and ’08 and he would probably make out as well, or better, if he got a long-term deal,” Steiner said. “The only risk is if he gets hurt, and you’re covered by insurance.”

[The PatternMaster]

Justin's agent pours some cold water on the long-term deal talk...

Jim Steiner, Smith’s agent, said he’s not overly optimistic about getting such a deal done.

“I only say that because I would think if it was going to happen it would have happened by now,” Steiner said. “They know the market, they know what it would take, but we haven’t talked about a long-term deal for several months. I would think with his character and the kind of guy he is that they would want to sign him for longer than ’07, but we’ll have to see.”

Steiner said the Bengals told him right away that they would never rescind the tender and make him a free agent when much of the money around the NFL was dried up.

“If Justin Smith thought that they were going to pull the offer, he never would have signed it because there is plenty of money out there that he would have been paid,” Steiner said. “This is about Justin being a team player and being in there (for the voluntarys) and looking to have a big year for the team and individually.

“He looked at it very pragmatically,” Steiner said. “He’s looking at being a free agent after this season. He doesn’t see it negatively. He likes the team, he likes the city, and the franchise number is a big number.”

Steiner said he sought a clause in which the Bengals would agree not to make Smith the franchise free agent again in 2008, “but they wouldn’t do it.”

“If they make him that again then he would make about $20 million in ’07 and ’08 and he would probably make out as well, or better, if he got a long-term deal,” Steiner said. “The only risk is if he gets hurt, and you’re covered by insurance.”

So basically get all of your Justin Smith memories in now cause he's gone come '08, do you really expect the Bengals either franchise him again and pay him 9+mil or sign him for whatever ridiculous number the market dicates? I don't, they didn't try to match the Browns offer for Steinbach when the market dicatate a high salary and you mentioned the young guys that will available in the draft.

[7/11]

Seven million a year would be quite a bit, but that's what players of his caliber are commanding nowadays I guess. As our best defensive player, he's worth it.

who in sam hell is that girl in your picture?!

[Stripes]

Seven million a year would be quite a bit, but that's what players of his caliber are commanding nowadays I guess. As our best defensive player, he's worth it.

who in sam hell is that girl in your picture?!

Keeley Hazell. Google away, soldier.

[HoosierCat]

So basically get all of your Justin Smith memories in now cause he's gone come '08, do you really expect the Bengals either franchise him again and pay him 9+mil or sign him for whatever ridiculous number the market dicates? I don't

Actually, the more I think about it, yeah. I do see them franchising Smith again in '08. In fact, barring injury or horrible performance, I think it's close to a lock that they do so (and likely still take a day 1 DE as a future replacement, as they did with Steiny/Whitworth).

If the Bengals sign him to a long-term deal now, it will take at least $21 million in guaranteed money, plus $3-5 million or so in salary, just for 2007 and '08. So that's about $25 million this year and next.

By comparision, this year's tag will cost $8.6 million and next year's about $9.5 million. That's "just" $18.1 million for two years.

From a cap perspective, it's a painful strategy, since it means Justin's number is circa $3-4 million higher this year and next then it could be. But from the FO's perspective it means less of an up-front cash outlay. And we're all familiar with the FO's speil about how it doesn't have the deep pockets to give out endless big bonuses like the Redskins, etc. (to which there is a measure of truth).

The silver lining is that back-to-back tags means there's no cap impact beyond 2008, so that if a couple younger players emerge the Bengals should be in good position to keep them. The bad news is that tagging Justin again next year means the Bengals remain in "cap"tivity when it comes to FA in '08.

[Oldcat]

By comparision, this year's tag will cost $8.6 million and next year's about $9.5 million. That's "just" $18.1 million for two years.

Actually if we tag Justing again, he is assured at least a 20% raise over this year, no matter what happens with the value of the tag. So it would be about 10 million.

But they still might do it, if they value what Justin brings and don't see enough from the youngsters we've drafted.

[HoosierCat]

Actually if we tag Justing again, he is assured at least a 20% raise over this year, no matter what happens with the value of the tag. So it would be about 10 million.

Could be, I haven't gone over the new CBA's tweaking of the multiple tagging scenario; I did vaguely recall an upcharge for doing it, and I believe you can only tag a guy twice. But in any event the bengals still come out at least $6 million "ahead."

But they still might do it, if they value what Justin brings and don't see enough from the youngsters we've drafted.

Had they drafted a day 1 DE this year, say Jamall Anderson as Kiper projected, then I think Justin would likely be in his last year. But right now our DEs are Justin, Geathers, B-rob and Rucker. Robinson is done after this season, Rucker hasn't seen the field yet and Geathers still needs to show he can be an every down guy. The best scenario (at least on the field, the cap is another issue) would I think be that both Geathers and Rucker come on this season, Justin does his usual and the Bengals tag him again, and replace B-rob with a first-round pick next April.

[HairOnFire]

The silver lining is that back-to-back tags means there's no cap impact beyond 2008, so that if a couple younger players emerge the Bengals should be in good position to keep them. The bad news is that tagging Justin again next year means the Bengals remain in "cap"tivity when it comes to FA in '08.

I have to admit that my own opinion about the wisdom of tagging Smith a second time has evolved from thinking that it wasn't something that should be considered under any scenario to accepting the idea that it's increasing feasible. And not having any cap impact beyong 2008 is attractive for plenty of reasons, not the least being the idea that Smith, a DE who has routinely played more than 95% of all defensive snaps, is going to potentially have more wear on his body than most DE's.

As for another season in "cap"tivity, I don't get the same feeling that the Bengals are approaching this season as they did the last as there aren't as many core players that are approaching free agency.

[Walrus]

The best scenario (at least on the field, the cap is another issue) would I think be that both Geathers and Rucker come on this season, Justin does his usual and the Bengals tag him again, and replace B-rob with a first-round pick next April.

Wouldn't you say "best case" includes Pollack getting healthy by the end of 2007?

[HoosierCat]

The best scenario (at least on the field, the cap is another issue) would I think be that both Geathers and Rucker come on this season, Justin does his usual and the Bengals tag him again, and replace B-rob with a first-round pick next April.

Wouldn't you say "best case" includes Pollack getting healthy by the end of 2007?

I would love to see Pollack get healthy and return to DE. I don't think he will ever amount to anything more than a situational guy at OLB. The trouble is that I don't know if he's coming back, and Marvin seems unenthused with Pollack's idea of going back to DE. So I've just left him out of the calculation for now. But yeah, if in 2009 our lineup at DE is a stud Geathers, an at least servicable Rucker, Pollack and a high draft pick, that works for me.

As for another season in "cap"tivity, I don't get the same feeling that the Bengals are approaching this season as they did the last as there aren't as many core players that are approaching free agency.

Yeah, that's another reason tagging Justin makes some sense. Even with the tag, RFA tenders, the injury reserve and the rookie pool, the Bengals should still have about $10 million in cap space to play with. Not enough to both hold on to their own and play in outside FA...but they're rarely interested in outside FA anyhow. That number should suffice for Larson and a few more guys (Landon? Madieu? Caleb? Ratliff? Brooks? Stacy?).

[Kazkal]

Well mybe they how Rucker does and if he can be solid on running downs Pollack can relieve him on passing.

[7/11]

Seven million a year would be quite a bit, but that's what players of his caliber are commanding nowadays I guess. As our best defensive player, he's worth it.

who in sam hell is that girl in your picture?!

Keeley Hazell. Google away, soldier.

oh wow, guess i didn't take the time to look at her face...i've googled that chick up and down. probably the best rack in the world?