Pro Bowl Voting has begun

[B24]

Hey, it's that time of the year again. Time to cast your ballot for which of your favorite Bengals and other NFL players goto the Pro Bowl.

Pro Bowl Ballot

[The Brew Man]

The only one with a legit shot is Chad, am I right?

[AGrizzlyBaer]

Tony williams acctually has decent stats this year

[Calico87]

I saw Johnson will be a probowler and I also think James has looked good.

I think the Titans will get more respect than they did last year (no selected probowlers) and I think Kearse, Bulluck, OG Benji Olson, Mason, and McNair all have decent shots. Samari Rolle was also playing like a probowler until he dislocated his elbow (ouch!)

[kevnz]

I think Chad will be in the probowl this year. Also I think Duane Clemons has an outside shot at making it if he keeps getting those sacks.

<rant>

The biggest problem with probowl voting is that the fans get to vote. Fans don't tend to vote with knowledge they vote for popularity, (see Mike Allstot making the Probowl as a fullback...he is so not a fullback..fans are idiots) I voted and based my votes on how people are playing.

</rant>

Last years probowl is a prime example, not one Titan was voted in? WTF? Why you ask? Small market, smaller fan base....It will be a big problem for the Bengals this year as they are having a good year, and are playing really well, but no national media exposure the average "fan" will be clueless, I mean I live in New Zealand and can't even watch most games and I know more than most people....

[halp]

Tory James could be a quiet selection....cj as a pro bowl selection? at this point, with the likes of harrison and company, it would make us and cj feel good. but would he handle it in '05???? i sure as h.....l hope so!!! sorry , i meant would he be able to handle it in "'04" ...

[KitnasBengals]

Yes, the fans vote, which means Terrel Owens will probably get in again, despite the fact he is a awful team player, a whiner, and has 6 dropped passes in his last two games.

To me, the FB postition is really hard to vote for, because FB's get barley any touches of the football anymore, which is why Allstot get s in so much. If I had it my way, blocks would be included in statistics, as well as drops for recievers. With blocks (thrown) FB's could be rated a lot easier, because now you need to actually watch them to know how well they play.

[Calico87]

This alone will show how bad the probowl selection is messed up.

Didn't make it (2002)

Steve McNair, Keith Bulluck, Amani Toomer, Kerry Collins, Tiki Barber, Brad Johnson, add more if you want to.

Made it (2002)

Marshall Faulk (didn't even reach 1,000), Bret Favre, Michael Vick, and the list goes on.

The voting is done by popularity alone. I think the fans should be left out of the voting because the players, coaches, and "experts" would do a much better job.

Watch, this year Michael Vick will make the probowl while only playing a few games, and Chad Johnson won't because most "fans" haven't even heard of him. It's seriously messed up.

[KitnasBengals]

Even though I am an astout Favre fan, even I have to admit last year was not nearly the best of years for him. He posted his lowest yards in 10 years, and threw 27 touchdowns, but also 15 interceptions. He was hot early on, but then cooled off badly after that injury and didn't play well when the Packers needed him too. Still, those are good stats, but Kerry Collins and Brad Johnson didn't make it and they both had better years than Favre, Collins didn't have many touchdown passes, however, and he had 19 intereceptions to go with it. But he also through for over 4000 yards, which should alone get him in over Mike Vick. Brad Johnson was hot during the latter half of the year, and did a fantastic job. He should of been in the running for MVP, did you see how badly the Bucs looked without him? King and Rob Johnson couldn't get it done, and the whole team suffered. They would of never won the Super Bowl without him, forget defense. Just look at the year Brad is having already.

Mcnair was overrated as far as I'm concerned last year, but this year he is playing like an MVP.

Mike Vick is the biggest joke of this league, the moment I saw him I knew one of these days, his legs were going to be taken out when he was doing one of those fancy juke moves or whatever. I have always been against running QB's, for that very fact. They get injured more, what good is a player that doesn't play? Vick only threw 16 TD's, and 8 INT's, had a sub 60% completion percentage, and didn't even throw for 3000 yards! If Vick couldn't run, his passing numbers would be even worse. Vick might not even be able to run as well after his injury. I would not be surprised if he is sitting on the bench in a couple years on some other team as a backup.

Edited October 22, 2003 by KitnasBengals

[The Brew Man]

I have to disagree with you on Vick, while its true that running QBs get hurt more often, Vick was an electrifying player last year! Not to mention his lack of a running game and almost nobody to throw to. (#1 reciever was Finneran)

He could singlehandedly take over a game, and although his passing stats were not among any league leaders he has a cannon for an arm! Hes still working out the accuracy stuff, but seemed to be coming along nicely at the end of last year. And his rushing stats were crazy good, almost 7 yards a carry, 8 TDs.... most teams wouldnt mind that out of thier halfback! So, Vick will not be sitting on a bench in a few years, hes only 23 years old and will be a star in this league.

[KitnasBengals]

Arm strength means nothing in the NFL, everyone can throw it hard, some more than others (Favre) and some less (Pennington), but if you didn't have a good arm, you wouldn't be in this league period. The "accuracy stuff" is the most important aspect of being a quarterback. Remember "Slash'? Though I think Vick is a better player than Stuart, they both have similiar situations. Stuart's passing was mediocre in his first starting year, but he ran extremely well (Don't have the exact numbers) to make up for it. Every year since then his production has declined until he was eventually benched for Maddox.

Quarterback's are supposed to throw, not run. Look at Mcnabb, a running QB. Injured and playing awful. Daunte has fumbling problems as well. I think the only really good running/passing qb is Steve Mcnair. He has proved he can do both over the years, and this year he is showing that he can pass amongst the best of them. Even then, he has a history of injuries and even this year has been plagued by them.

[The Brew Man]

To say that arm strength means nothing is absurd, accuracy is more important, I agree. But that some with time and experience. Last year was Vicks first as a starter for a whole season! Please stop with the Kordell comparisons, Kordell had a moment in the sun, but was never consistent.

Lets not forget one other thing, results.....last year Mike Vick and his Falcons went into Lambeu in the playoffs and beat Favre and the pack.......

Not to mention this years falcons are 1-6 and maybe the worst team in football, think they miss Vick?

[KitnasBengals]

Read what I said again, I never said that arm strength wasn't important. I had 3 scentences on Kordell...

Yes, the Falcon's miss Vick, but unless Vick starts playing defense as well as offense, their problems are too big for him to handle. This team wouldn't be 1-6 with Vick, but I doubt they would be doing well. Football is a team sport, not a one man show. No matter how good the one man is.

Fave, Manning both started the whole year for the first time and had much better years. Kurt Warner did it also.

I'm sure there are others... I dont feel like looking it up right now.

[The Brew Man]

One more point, here is some other QBs numbers in thier first year as starter compared to Vicks....

...................Cmp% Yds TD INT RushYds RushTDs TeamsRecord

McNair (97) 52.0 2665 14 13 674 8 8-8

Vick (02) 54.9 2936 16 8 777 8 10-7-1

McNabb (00) 58.0 3365 21 13 629 6 12-6

Favre (93) 60.9 3303 19 24 216 1 10-8

I would say its good company

[KitnasBengals]

Favre's first year was in 1992, when he started 13 games. He was the named starter the next year, but 92 was his first year with any playing time, and 13 games is a LOT of time. So in my book, Favre's first year is in 92:

Favre 92' 302 471 64.1 3227 6.9 18 13

Manning 326 575 56.7 3739 6.5 26 28

Moon 259 450 57.6 3338 7.4 12 14

Kitna 270 495 54.5 3346 6.8 23 16

Vick 231 421 54.9 2936 7.0 16 8

I included Kitna for a run of the mill QB to be in there.

Vick didn't beat the Packers with his arm, he was 13 of 25 for 117 yards, and 1 TD.

The next game against the Eagles he threw 2 INTs and no TDs.

The team's record isnt necessarily a reflection of the QB's ability.

[The Brew Man]

By adding the teams record I was simply implying the leadership most teams get from the QB position. Plus, whether Vick beat the pack with his arm or not, it was a damned impressive win for a kid in his first full season as starter at Lambeu.....

As a bet, I will bet you Vick comes back next year and is the same player but adds polish and ups the comp. %, he will be a top 5 QB in the league for the next 6-7 years......

not a benchwarmer...

[KitnasBengals]

Thats fair. I still think he will be slowed by his injury, then perhaps get injured again. Then when he can't run, his weakness as a passer will be apparent, and he'll be on the sidelines holding a clipboard or on the bench.

Then again, who knows what will happen. If you told the Falcon's their backup QB will goto back to back Super Bowls. revive a franchise, and become a hall of famer, they would of looked at you like you were on drugs.

So we'll have to watch and see, that's what good about football, we don't know what's going to happen.

[Calico87]

Mcnair was overrated as far as I'm concerned last year, but this year he is playing like an MVP.

You can have your opinion, but I want to help change your mind about that. Last year, the 1st 5 games, we were relying on Eddie George like we have always done in the past. After the 1-4 start, Jeff Fisher and offensive coordinator Mike Heimerdinger got together and discussed the teams problems. They found out that Eddie couldn't carry us anymore, and to put the team on McNair's shoulders. After the team was GIVEN to McNair, the Titans won 10 of 11 and went to the AFC Championship game. He also did all of this with injuries no quarterback would have been able to play with. That is why he was considered an MVP candidate and should have made the pro bowl. This year, he has the stats to go along with it.

[KitnasBengals]

I agree that he should of went to the Pro Bowl. I stick by saying that he was overrated, but I admit I tend to look at stats too much and not the other aspects of being a quarterback. But to be an MVP, you need both spectacular numbers and great leadership. Mcnair didn't have the numbers, Gannon did.

After awhile, if a player keeps getting injured, even if he plays with it, I consider him someone not dependable. He might have guts (a lot) and to stand out there and take the hits when your already injured is tough. But there has to be a point when you say, why is this player getting injured so much? Poor conditioning or too many hits? Or is it bad luck? If he got further injured, Mcnair could of been out for the season, and the Titans would of sunk. Luckily for Mcnair he didn't get further injured (actually, I think he did, but I can't remember, you could probably tell me Calico). My point is, a player who gets injured can't be relied on to tough it out every time, though in this case Mcnair seems to be the exception But even he would have sit if his injuries got serious enough.

By the way, the above explains why I think Edgerrin James is not a good RB. He gets injured constantly, and when he hasn't been, he isn't running like he used to. The Colts need to get a new RB, someone who actuallly PLAYS.

[The Brew Man]

By the way, Chad should be a lock to the Pro Bowl now, and maybe even Kitna deserves some votes.....

[Minne]

I voted for my man chad johnson and jon kitna.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Why do they even play this game? Me actually watch this worse than exhibition, counts for nothing game? I don't think so.

I can see voting for players at each position, but I think it should be a jury of their peers...as in players and coaching staff only eligible to vote. That would give a more respected honor to these shanigans, I believe!

Oh, Chad Johnson definitely deserves this honor, closely followed by Jon Kitna.