Updated: K2 a Saint

[HoosierCat]

Does anyone else think this might mean that the Benglas will match the offer for Smith???

Doubt it. If they were going to match one it would have been K2. While I hate to lose Shaun, too, at this point matching the Browns for Smith would be incomprehensible. Why spend $2m for a player who routinely get benched in favor of Fear the Fanene when you wouldnt spend $2.5m on a guy who's played in almost every game the last two years and started 23 of 'em.

No, I think Smith's all yours.

[agreen_112]

I'm ready to see more from Kilmer too.

[cover2]

"the Bengals had correctly determined Kaesviharn's market value from the start, and history proves the Bengals very rarely pay more for a player than they've determined he's worth" who gives a rats ass!

So, what are you saying the Bengals are good at cost accounting but not too good at putting together

a team. The Colts found a way to get to the super bowl and Indy has even a smaller market than the Bengals and a crapy stadium. Every time we loose another player the home boys on this board say we did'nt need him anyway.

Theses guys we lost have experience and it will hurt. No matter who we loose the home boys on this board defend. I can't remember another time when we lost so many people and added nobody.

Looks like 500 or less will be fine with Mikey. Keep the turnstiles turning!

[agreen_112]

"the Bengals had correctly determined Kaesviharn's market value from the start, and history proves the Bengals very rarely pay more for a player than they've determined he's worth" who gives a rats ass!

So, what are you saying the Bengals are good at cost accounting but not too good at putting together

a team. The Colts found a way to get to the super bowl and Indy has even a smaller market than the Bengals and a crapy stadium. Every time we loose another player the home boys on this board say we did'nt need him anyway.

Theses guys we lost have experience and it will hurt. No matter who we loose the home boys on this board defend. I can't remember another time when we lost so many people and added nobody.

Looks like 500 or less will be fine with Mikey. Keep the turnstiles turning!

Steiny is the only one worth a damn at this point and we've got Whitworth ready to fill his shoes... We've seen all that Keas has to offer, he's replaceable dude! Yeah, he's came through in the clutch a couple of times. Maybe we won't need those clutch plays if the defense isn't so soft!

Our stars aren't going anywhere

[HairOnFire]

"the Bengals had correctly determined Kaesviharn's market value from the start, and history proves the Bengals very rarely pay more for a player than they've determined he's worth"

who gives a rats ass!

So, what are you saying the Bengals are good at cost accounting but not too good at putting together

a team.

No, you're the rats ass attempting to make that point. I wouldn't bother. I simply pointed out the fact that Arizona, Cleveland, and New Orleans all made contract offers for Kaesviharn that were either inferior to the Bengals offer or only marginally better...firmly establishing Kaesviharns value. And if the Bengals had correctly determined that value why should they improve their offer? Granted, doing so may result in you retaining the player, but only if you agree to pay more than you've determined he's worth.

[HairOnFire]

As for the Saints, Kaesviharn sat on their offer for more than a week while considering a return to the Bengals, making it almost certain that the Bengals original offer was still considered fair and competitive.

Hobs puts the Bengals' offer in the 4 years, $6m range...so, no.

So you'll mock what Hobson writes if you don't agree with it but just as quickly quote it as gospel when you do?

Your boy Hobson claimed the Saints had improved their final offer so I'll suggest there's precious little need for you to point out the obvious fact that the Bengals offer wasn't competitive at the end. We all understand that much, right? (sarcasm)

What I pointed out was how competitive the Bengals offer had been for weeks as Kaesviharn wandered through the free agent landscape. Granted, another team eventually improved their offer and the Bengals chose not to match...either because they couldn't or simply because they wouldn't. And on that point you've sarcastically opined the Bengals very easily could have, right? So what conclusions can be safely reached?

Bottom Line: The Bengals, like several other bidding teams, simply refused to pay more than Kaesviharn was worth.

[bwillycuse]

"the Bengals had correctly determined Kaesviharn's market value from the start, and history proves the Bengals very rarely pay more for a player than they've determined he's worth"

who gives a rats ass!

So, what are you saying the Bengals are good at cost accounting but not too good at putting together

a team.

No, you're the rats ass attempting to make that point. I wouldn't bother. I simply pointed out the fact that Arizona, Cleveland, and New Orleans all made contract offers for Kaesviharn that were either inferior to the Bengals offer or only marginally better...firmly establishing Kaesviharns value. And if the Bengals had correctly determined that value why should they improve their offer? Granted, doing so may result in you retaining the player, but only if you agree to pay more than you've determined he's worth.

Not too worried about the players we lost. I hope the special teams maintains its cover abilities with the loss of Wilkins and KK. Other than that we will hopefully have the services of Rucker, Fanene, Perry, Perry, Nicholson, Thurman, and the long shot Pollack. Most of which didnt play much or at all last season. We will see Kilmer step up and JJ come into his own. Well be fine.

[HoosierCat]

Your boy Hobson claimed the Saints had improved their final offer

Actually, Hobson says nothing of the sort. As far as I can tell, he walked out of NO with that offer. The delay was in trying to do something with the Bengals. K2 said straight out he would have prefered to stay but in the end the Bengals wouldn't come up. As for the othr teams, I have no idea what their deals were aside from K2's general comment about all the offers that "some were more firm than others."

Bottom Line: The Bengals, like several other bidding teams, simply refused to pay more than Kaesviharn was worth.

K2 is worth what the market will pay him. As usual, the Bengals let the market set itself and, as usual, they got burned.

[HairOnFire]

Your boy Hobson claimed the Saints had improved their final offer

Actually, Hobson says nothing of the sort. As far as I can tell, he walked out of NO with that offer. The delay was in trying to do something with the Bengals. K2 said straight out he would have prefered to stay but in the end the Bengals wouldn't come up. As for the othr teams, I have no idea what their deals were aside from K2's general comment about all the offers that "some were more firm than others."

So you don't know if New Orleans improved their final offer, and you have absolutely no idea what the offers were from other teams, but you somehow feel quite comfortable sarcastically criticizing for refusing to improve their offer?

Well, isn't that rich? It's almost like the less you know the more you can criticize. As for K2 saying straight out that he preferred to stay with the Bengals, well doesn't that say something pretty darned positive about the Bengals? Yet somehow you make it seem like a negative, as is your habit.

Bottom Line: Almost every step of the way the Bengals are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[HoosierCat]

So you don't know if New Orleans improved their final offer,

I never claimed they did, you did.

but you somehow feel quite comfortable sarcastically criticizing for refusing to improve their offer?

Clearly K2 gave them every opportunity to do so. I'm sure they knew NO's price. And they wouldn't.

Well, isn't that rich? It's almost like the less you know the more you can criticize.

All I know is that Hobs reports the bengals offer to be about a mil less per year, a far-less-than-staggering amount, but one that stymied a Bengals club that (like, apparently, many organizations and peiople) were unprepeared for the jump in the cost of mid-tier talent.

As for K2 saying straight out that he preferred to stay with the Bengals, well doesn't that say something pretty darned positive about the Bengals? Yet somehow you make it seem like a negative, as is your habit.

And it isn't? You have a player who wats to stay and a small amount of money is the difference, and you can't get it done. That's a positive?

Bottom Line: Almost every step of the way the Bengals are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

On the contrary, had they matched the NO offer and retained K2 I would have had nothing but praise for them.

[HairOnFire]

Clearly K2 gave them every opportunity to do so. I'm sure they knew NO's price. And they wouldn't.

Wouldn't or couldn't? I've suggested that they wouldn't pay a player more than they had determined he was worth. Point blank. Meanwhile, you've already written sarcastically that the Bengals very easily could have matched New Orleans offer if they had wanted to, but in the same post claimed they couldn't due to their miserable cap management skills. Well, which is it?

Damned if they do and damned if they don't, right?

[HairOnFire]

You have a player who wats to stay and a small amount of money is the difference, and you can't get it done. That's a positive?

Yeah, I'd say it's a positive when a player says that he has great respect for the Bengals coaches and players, and would prefer to stay if an agreement on price could be reached. What about that isn't a positive?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Bengals have the right to walk away from any deal they don't like. And on that score you've admitted that the Bengals knew what the Saints offer was, and could have very easily matched it if they wanted to. So the fact that they refused to do so should tell you something about how commited they were to retaining Kaesviharn. In short, they wanted him back but only at a price they were willing to pay. Meanwhile, we both agreed previously that Kaesviharn was in a position where he likely had to agree to whatever offer was largest...even if the difference was small.

[HoosierCat]

Meanwhile, you've already written sarcastically that the Bengals very easily could have matched New Orleans offer if they had wanted to, but in the same post claimed they couldn't due to their miserable cap management skills. Well, which is it?

Damned if they do and damned if they don't, right?

Wrong. They could, they simply chose not to because of the way they want to manage the cap -- a way that is ill-suited to deal with the reality of rising mid-tier player costs.

In short, they wanted him back but only at a price they were willing to pay.

When something is worth more that you are willing to pay, the fact you want it is beside the point.

[jjakq27]

To read KK's comments in the paper today, it sounds like it came down to playing time. The Bengals would not give him the chance to challenge for a starting spot while the Saints said they would. Translation is they aren't going to give starter money to a backup. If they had done so, I can just imagine the threads about how stupid the Bengals organization is......

[HoosierCat]

Translation is they aren't going to give starter money to a backup. If they had done so, I can just imagine the threads about how stupid the Bengals organization is......

That's just it: I don't think K2's deal qualifies as "starter money" any longer. IIRC 35-year-old Kyle Brady got a two-year deal for $5.25m to be a blocking TE up in New England. That's probably about the same as what K2 will collect over the first two years of this deal -- and that could very well be all of it he sees.

There's a new tier of player contracts being created this year. Call it the "key role player" or "semi-starter" or "down-and-distance starter" (h/t Hair). But teams, including the Bengals, are going to have to adjust to paying a bit more for these kinds of guys. On the flip side, it looks to me like things have flattened out a bit up top; the big money deals were a lot less crazy than predicted. That should help.

[Kazkal]

K2 is worth what the market will pay him. As usual, the Bengals let the market set itself and, as usual, they got burned.

So Nate clements is worth 80 million,he's worth being paid more then champ bailey,brian urlacher and julias peppers?

[HoosierCat]

K2 is worth what the market will pay him. As usual, the Bengals let the market set itself and, as usual, they got burned.

So Nate clements is worth 80 million,he's worth being paid more then champ bailey,brian urlacher or julias peppers?

That's the price you had to pay to get him, right? You might think the price is too high, but that's what he's worth. You couldn't get him for less.

As to the deal itself, it's actually considerably less. There's about $25m in BS money piled into the last two years that Clements will never see. He's actually getting something in the $8-9m/year range over 6 years (if it even goes that long). Pricey but FA cornerbacks always cost, look at Bly back in '03.

[jjakq27]

At some point I really hope that all parties realize that all of this front-loading and back-loading crap is a joke. And it is costing the teams and even the players a lot of time, money and effort. They are only fooling themselves.

And for all of the folks that aren't real happy about KK and KW leaving, I am thrilled that the Bengals were proactive in locking in guys like Carson, Chad, Willie, Levi, Geathers, TJ and Rudi over the last couple of years. I think they should be commended for a good job.

[HairOnFire]

To read KK's comments in the paper today, it sounds like it came down to playing time. The Bengals would not give him the chance to challenge for a starting spot while the Saints said they would. Translation is they aren't going to give starter money to a backup. If they had done so, I can just imagine the threads about how stupid the Bengals organization is......

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't.

[HairOnFire]

They could, they simply chose not to because of the way they want to manage the cap -- a way that is ill-suited to deal with the reality of rising mid-tier player costs.

And yet it's perfectly suited when it comes to retaining upper-tier players. Carson, Rudi, Chad, TJ, Levi, Big Willie, Bobby Dub, JJ, and Jumpy Junior have all been locked up long-term with new contracts.

Again, the Bengals have the right to walk away from any deal they don't like, and that includes refusing to pay Kaesviharn a million more per season than they feel he's worth. Simply because they refused to improve their offer to K2 doesn't mean they got burned by their own habits, as you sarcastically claim.

You are aware that every team in the NFL makes hard choices about which players to keep based upon how much they're willing to pay them? Each team wins some and loses some, and most find themselves losing important core players far more often than the Bengals do, right? Yet somehow you conclude that the Bengals can't compete due the back-assward way they manage the cap?

Well, go figure. (Pun intended.)

[cover2]

Steiny is the only one worth a damn at this point and we've got Whitworth ready to fill his shoes... We've seen all that Keas has to offer, he's replaceable dude! Yeah, he's came through in the clutch a couple of times. Maybe we won't need those clutch plays if the defense isn't so soft!

Our stars aren't going anywhere

[jjakq27]

I'm not sure who you are calling a star? We don't have any on defense? K2 was no star but he was an important cog in the wheel. We are going to need all the clutch plays we can muster. Everybody else is getting better. Our defense is not going to be much different than what we saw last year. It's way more than a couple players away.

You make an interesting point. But if you look at the guys that they no longer have (Simmons, KK, Pollack and Odell) on defense you have to wonder what they are thinking. Are they planning on a trade at some point? Were they hoping to get Joey Porter? Are they going to move up in the draft? Even though I have never been a big fan of Brian Simmons, I am concerned when all three of the projected starting LBs from last year are gone. It just seems like they are trying to overhaul things a bit and save some money for something else on defense later this year.

[HoosierCat]

They could, they simply chose not to because of the way they want to manage the cap -- a way that is ill-suited to deal with the reality of rising mid-tier player costs.

And yet it's perfectly suited when it comes to retaining upper-tier players. Carson, Rudi, Chad, TJ, Levi, Big Willie, Bobby Dub, JJ, and Jumpy Junior have all been locked up long-term with new contracts.

Of course it is, and of course they have -- that's the way it was designed: to operate in an era when there were two tiers of players: royalty and peasants. They are, quite obviously based on this year's player exodus, ill-prepared to deal with the emergence of a middle class.

[cover2]

You make an interesting point. But if you look at the guys that they no longer have (Simmons, KK, Pollack and Odell) on defense you have to wonder what they are thinking. Are they planning on a trade at some point? Were they hoping to get Joey Porter? Are they going to move up in the draft? Even though I have never been a big fan of Brian Simmons, I am concerned when all three of the projected starting LBs from last year are gone. It just seems like they are trying to overhaul things a bit and save some money for something else on defense later this year.

Options:

Players from the draft

Players cut by teams before the season late in training camp.. This is really their only real option. They feel there are going to be players cut they could then use to upgrade their talent.

[ArmyBengal]

Color me who gives a sh*t !!! While I will give credit to KK for coming on last year, he's not a starter and NEVER will be... We need more depth at safety, but I've never been a fan of his and never would be. Go ahead and start the hatred spew in my direction, but I just never liked the guy... So long KK !!!

WHODEY !!!