ShulaSteakhouse Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 From Lance McAlister's blog:*Nobody has explained to me what the Bengals know that most NFL teams don't....in terms of no GM and lack of scouts*An NFL model that has produced one winning season since 1990 and hasn't produced a playoff win since then, isn't working.*Mike Brown is ok with winning dropping into his lap, but he won't pursue winning with all that's required to help the process.*The most embarrassing statement a Bengals fan can make is...."hey I'll take 8-8, it sure beats 3-13 or 4-12Basically a summation of my posts the last couple of weeks, and how I feel as well.I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team.I am not looking for opinions, I am looking for documented evidence that supports the Bengals' current operating philosophy, and, as Lance says, supports the fact that apparently Mike Brown knows more than any other NFL team out there apparently.Yet one playoff game in the last 16 years, no playoff wins, and one winning season, seem to contradict the supposed genius of Mike Brown, according to quite a few posters here.I am looking for answers, as all I hear from the pro-Mike Brown crowd is, "wait until next year." I've been hearing that the last 16, and am frankly quite tired of your promises that never come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC_Bengals_Fan Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 From Lance McAlister's blog:*Nobody has explained to me what the Bengals know that most NFL teams don't....in terms of no GM and lack of scouts*An NFL model that has produced one winning season since 1990 and hasn't produced a playoff win since then, isn't working.*Mike Brown is ok with winning dropping into his lap, but he won't pursue winning with all that's required to help the process.*The most embarrassing statement a Bengals fan can make is...."hey I'll take 8-8, it sure beats 3-13 or 4-12Basically a summation of my posts the last couple of weeks, and how I feel as well.I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team.I am not looking for opinions, I am looking for documented evidence that supports the Bengals' current operating philosophy, and, as Lance says, supports the fact that apparently Mike Brown knows more than any other NFL team out there apparently.Yet one playoff game in the last 16 years, no playoff wins, and one winning season, seem to contradict the supposed genius of Mike Brown, according to quite a few posters here.I am looking for answers, as all I hear from the pro-Mike Brown crowd is, "wait until next year." I've been hearing that the last 16, and am frankly quite tired of your promises that never come.As far as the bubble, I think the question is "why?" Cincinnati isn't much of a cold-weather city in September-December. It seems to be little more than a creature comfort.As for a GM, I do think Mike lacks the requisite knowledge and experience. But I will say, at least we avoid situations like the Browns and 49ers (when Mariucci was there) where you have the President, GM, and Head Coach all feuding with each other and playing each other against the owner. At least we don't have that. But I don't think Mike's very good with regard to talent evaluationAs for scouts, you'll get no argument from me. They're very cheap relative to the money you're investing in the players, and I'd want to do anything I can to make sure I choose well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team. I'll tackle one of them...just to show how little you care for facts. So Steakhouse, read the following and then begin whining that none of it matters, you're still not impressed, and blah, blah, blah. Let's begin. Fact 1 - The Bengals had no need for an indoor practice facility this year unless you hold the opinion that players shouldn't have to practice in the same weather they have to play in. Fact 2 - The Bengals rarely face practicing in weather so poor that an indoor practice facility is needed, and when the rare occasion does arrive there are existing facilities available. The Bengals even have agreements with those facilities that guarantee they'll be made available to the Bengals if needed. Fact 3 - Covering the existing practice field would require the Bengals to heat or cool the facility every single practice....a fairly stupid waste of funds considering how rarely the Bengals require protection from the elements. Fact 4 - The Bengals have refused to consider building an indoor practice facility until Hamilton County drops it's appeal of a lawsuit claiming more than 300 million dollars. Fact 5 - Three hundred million dollars is alot of money. So much so that the team has had to spend millions of dollars in needless legal expenses fighting Hamilton County's attempt to break a perfectly legal and fairly negotiated lease. Fact 6 - The man behind the lawsuits, Todd Portune, has admitted that the lease is perfectly legal and has described the lawsuits that he files as "harrassment" meant to drain the Bengals of funds. In short, an attempt to drive the Bengals back to the bargaining table to renegotiate a legal lease that favors the Bengals. Debate the issue all you want, but it's a cold hard fact that the Bengals have the right to respond by telling everyone currently suing them in court to go straight to hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walrus Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team.It seems (from things he has said) as though Marvin would really like to have such a facility, but that the team is unable (or unwilling) to build one due to the ongoing litigation over their existing stadium lease. I don't like it, but I guess I can understand how it would be hard to build something new when what you've got is already so hotly disputed.Aside from that point, though, I agree. Mike Brown has failed to field a good football team. As long as he's around, maybe this organization can't be successful. Nobody can do anything about what he will or will not do. If I don't like it, maybe I need to find a different team to root for. Either that or just step back and care a little less. What else can a fan do?*edit* oops, looks like Hair beat me to that first point. Although I, personally, don't necessarily take such a pro-Bengal slant on that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShulaSteakhouse Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team. I'll tackle one of them...just to show how little you care for facts. So Steakhouse, read the following and then begin whining that none of it matters, you're still not impressed, and blah, blah, blah.Hair - I appreciate your response regardless, and can always count on you to come to Mike Brown's defense. Let's begin. Yes, Let's. Fact 1 - The Bengals had no need for an indoor practice facility this year unless you hold the opinion that players shouldn't have to practice in the same weather they have to play in.This is not a "fact." Please explain to me why every other NFL cold weather or seasonal team HAS a "bubble," but the Bengals' don't? Why are the Bengals' different? Why exactly are they different and what can you use to back up the fact that they don't need it, based on the winning percentages of other teams and clubs compared to the Bengals' since Mike Brown took over? Why is Marvin Lewis also well under .500 during December as a HC? Fact 2 - The Bengals rarely face practicing in weather so poor that an indoor practice facility is needed, and when the rare occasion does arrive there are existing facilities available. The Bengals even have agreements with those facilities that guarantee they'll be made available to the Bengals if needed.This has been debated over and over - they drive 40 minutes north and kick indoor soccer leagues out. Musicians don't "practice" in hot stage lights with thousands of people in front of them, why should football teams practice in pouring rain and freezing conditions? Again, no other cold weather team "doesn't" have a bubble - what makes the Bengals' different and how has their record supported that? Furthermore if your theory holds water - why aren't the Bengals' better than everyone else in December and November, if they are so accustomed to the elements? Fact 3 - Covering the existing practice field would require the Bengals to heat or cool the facility every single practice....a fairly stupid waste of funds considering how rarely the Bengals require protection from the elements.Why should I care if it costs a little more again? I am not concerned about Mike Brown's petty stash. Teams less profitable than the Bengals' all have them - again what makes this team different, and what do you have based on their record as a team, to back up that statement exactly? Fact 4 - The Bengals have refused to consider building an indoor practice facility until Hamilton County drops it's appeal of a lawsuit claiming more than 300 million dollars.See my response above - ditto. Plus that lawsuit was thrown out last March and is waiting on an appeal judgement. The Bengals' also counter-sued. This should not affect a $2 million dollar practice facility - the bickering between the county and team is not my concern. It should be the tax payers' concerns though, because we just paid for the Bengals' new turf this year and are bound to paying for all the upgrades, improvements and maintenance needed for life. Fact 5 - Three hundred million dollars is a lot of money. So much so that the team has had to spend millions of dollars in needless legal expenses fighting Hamilton County's attempt to break a perfectly legal and fairly negotiated lease. See response above. Fact 6 - The man behind the lawsuits, Todd Portune, has admitted that the lease is perfectly legal and has described the lawsuits that he files as "harrassment" meant to drain the Bengals of funds. In short, an attempt to drive the Bengals back to the bargaining table to renegotiate a legal lease that favors the Bengals. Debate the issue all you want, but it's a cold hard fact that the Bengals have the right to respond by telling everyone currently suing them in court to go straight to hell.This is just an expansion of your above two points - and again - why does this matter to me, Joe fan? Why should I care again? This process is in appeals and the Brown family are not paying out any legal fees. I don't care. This is their problem, not mine. We're talking about a minimal, cheap, upgrade to the facilities - hell they can put a damn tent over the field with blowers inside for all I care.No more bubble talk - I've made my point. Feel free to disagree for whatever reason, just tired of the subject! As for FA and Mike Brown changing his ways - I rest my case on the lack of responses. He's still a miser and an incomptent GM. I pray that Marvin Lewis somehow convinces him to change this off-season, or that Katie starts a mutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stripes Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 As for FA and Mike Brown changing his ways - I rest my case on the lack of responses. He's still a miser and an incomptent GM. I pray that Marvin Lewis somehow convinces him to change this off-season, or that Katie starts a mutiny.You received few responses because you're presenting the same tired arguments you always have and there's nothing to gain from debate. You're set in your outdated Bungles mindset, and nobody will change your mind.If the Bengals were still in the thick of '90s like futility, I might agree that Mikey needs to change his approach.Anyone can see how the team has improved since then, and one 8-8 step-back season a year after winning the division with an entirely different team from anything else he has ever fielded isn't even close to enough to make me jump ship and start clamoring for change.In fact, I hope for and expect nothing but more of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShulaSteakhouse Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I am still waiting for one factual response as to why the Bengals' "don't" need an indoor practice facility like every other cold weather team in the league, or an experienced GM, or more scouts like every other team.It seems (from things he has said) as though Marvin would really like to have such a facility, but that the team is unable (or unwilling) to build one due to the ongoing litigation over their existing stadium lease. I don't like it, but I guess I can understand how it would be hard to build something new when what you've got is already so hotly disputed.Aside from that point, though, I agree. Mike Brown has failed to field a good football team. As long as he's around, maybe this organization can't be successful. Nobody can do anything about what he will or will not do. If I don't like it, maybe I need to find a different team to root for. Either that or just step back and care a little less. What else can a fan do?*edit* oops, looks like Hair beat me to that first point. Although I, personally, don't necessarily take such a pro-Bengal slant on that matter.I tend to agree w/you, but have to take it out on the forums some times, as someone who's utterly so sick of losing I just don't care about the bitching, it's justified. Maybe some should just ignore it when they can. It's expected.I'm really not happy about waiting around for a winning season to fall into our laps like 2005, every 15 years, and I just can't "not" be a fan, of a team I grew up watching. Simple fact of the matter is they've gone downhill since PB's departure and the beginning of true Free Agency and the cap.It's all about Brown's philosophy and not changing or evolving enough with the times. Unfortunately that is still the biggest roadblock. I don't see how anyone could deny that at this point. It's a waiting game still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 This is not a "fact." Please explain to me why every other NFL cold weather or seasonal team HAS a "bubble," but the Bengals' don't? Yes, it was a fact. There wasn't a single day this season where the weather was so severe that an indoor practice facility was required. Not one. This has been debated over and over - they drive 40 minutes north and kick indoor soccer leagues out. Musicians don't "practice" in hot stage lights with thousands of people in front of them, why should football teams practice in pouring rain and freezing conditions? Again, no other cold weather team "doesn't" have a bubble - what makes the Bengals' different and how has their record supported that? Furthermore if your theory holds water - why aren't the Bengals' better than everyone else in December and November, if they are so accustomed to the elements? You're not retarded so don't act like you are. The Bengals won/loss record is the result of a multitude of factors, all of which you bitch about endlessly. So your response is completely worthless unless you're claiming now the Bengals won/loss record is entirely determined by whether or not they have a bubble. Are you that stupid? Why should I care if it costs a little more again? I am not concerned about Mike Brown's petty stash. Teams less profitable than the Bengals' all have them - again what makes this team different, and what do you have based on their record as a team, to back up that statement exactly? You asked for facts and I gave you one. In response you've argued that you don't care about costs because it's not your money. Well, you've now offered an opinion...not a fact, and it's a pretty stupid opinion at that.See my response above - ditto. Plus that lawsuit was thrown out last March and is waiting on an appeal judgement. The Bengals' also counter-sued. This should not affect a $2 million dollar practice facility - the bickering between the county and team is not my concern. It should be the tax payers' concerns though, because we just paid for the Bengals' new turf this year and are bound to paying for all the upgrades, improvements and maintenance needed for life. Again, your response is just an opinion. You don't care about costs because it's not your money. You don't think the practice facility should be linked to the dropping of a lawsuit or it's appeal. It's all your opinion, right? But none of it is based in fact, which is what you demanded. And on that last point I'm reminded that the last time we spoke about this issue you didn't know the ruling in the lawsuit had been appealed. Shouldn't you thank me for bringing you up to speed on that point? In fact, shouldn't you thank me for constantly bringing you up to speed on nearly every issue you complain about? Regardless, you're welcome. This is just an expansion of your above two points - and again - why does this matter to me, Joe fan? Why should I care again? This process is in appeals and the Brown family are not paying out any legal fees. I don't care. This is their problem, not mine. We're talking about a minimal, cheap, upgrade to the facilities - hell they can put a damn tent over the field with blowers inside for all I care. I realize you don't care. You're far too busy being a dink to care. No matter though, as Todd Portune has admitted that his harrassing lawsuits are purposely filed to bleed the Bengals of time and funds, and the Bengals are perfectly within their rights to respond to such tactics by refusing to invest money locally or by throwing their political weight around whenever they get the chance. And I'm surprised by your "for all I care" stance when this issue has always seemed so important to you. Well, perhaps you were just whining for the sake of whining, ehhh?No more bubble talk - I've made my point. The only point you've made is under your hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I'm not sure the indoor facility would be used strictly for bad weather reasons. It would also benefit them to have a controlled environment for something like a walk-through or just a way to get players in a more relaxed state to focus on the game plans and such. Perhaps practicing indoors could recreate loud noise situations as well as preparing for much warmer climates... like Florida... where the team can predict and adjust towards expected cramps (read: Chad Johnson).But I agree, there's no NEED for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonboat Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 The bubble facility would be nice BUT that money could be used for other things like signing players, maybe a scout or two, or as HOF pointed out fighting a frivolous lawsuit.I'm not so sure a GM would really make any difference & would only serve mostly in title only. I would imagine Mike Brown would still have the final say in any decisions. I could be wrong but I get the impression Marvin & Mike Brown has a pretty decent relationship. It has been this way for years, I don't see it happening now just because all the other teams have a GM & the Bengals don't. I don't necessarily think he's wrong either how many teams did we have a better record than last year without a GM. The problems this year went alot further than not having a GM it was filled with adversity( injuries ,suspensions, consistency, execution) seemed if something could go wrong it did, hopefully they grow from it & be tougher , poised because of it.I'd be all for more scouts & I believe would have the biggest impact on the teams future . I'm not sure of how many more other teams have compared to the Bengals, I seem to recall adding 2-3 several years ago, but it would take some of the pressure off the coaching staff possibly making it easier not to take as many risks in the draft. I feel Marvin has done a good job @ finding better players than the team has in the past especially in the later rounds,maybe not character, thus the reason the team has improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazkal Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Why do we need a GM? katie handles the contracts just fine...Marvin and Mikey would want to bring in players they wanted vs letting GM pick.More scouts would be great for finding more later rnd gems but I could really careless about a GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Why do we need a GM? katie handles the contracts just fine...Marvin and Mikey would want to bring in players they wanted vs letting GM pick.More scouts would be great for finding more later rnd gems but I could really careless about a GM.The model for the argument supporting the hiring of a GM is the Colts model. Actually I think a more alarming aspect is the lack of scouting, when comparing to the Colts. From their site:COLTSTom Telesco, Director of Player PersonnelDom Anile, Sr. Consultant to Player PersonnelClyde Powers, Director of Pro Player PersonnelDavid Caldwell, Western Regional ScoutTodd Vasvari, Eastern Regional ScoutJohn Becker, Area ScoutRyan Cavanaugh, Area ScoutMark Ellenz, Area ScoutBob Guarini, Area ScoutByron Lusby, Area ScoutMatt Terpening, Area ScoutKevin Rogers, Pro ScoutJ. W. Jordan, Salary Cap/Personnel AnalystStefani Paul, Player Development AdministratorJamie Moore, Scouting AssistantCarlos Woods, Scouting AssistantDebbie Finn, Asst. to the Director of Player PersonnelOURS?Jim Lippincott, Director of Football OperationsDuke Tobin, Director of Player PersonnelGreg Seamon, ScoutEarl Biederman, Scouting ConsultantsJohn Cooper, Scouting ConsultantsBill Tobin, Scouting ConsultantsDebbie LaRocco,Personnel Assistant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whur CHad At? Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 It would be great to have more scouts. But I agree with Kaz, we don't need a GM. Katie is doing fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spor_tees Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 But Bill Tobin used to work for the Colts...isn't that enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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