It's getting harder to stay a fan

[HairOnFire]

If you believe that a kid can't be a fan of the Bengals while realizing that players who get arrested f-ed up I can only say it's always been that way. In the 80's LT was plowing down blow like there was no tomorrow while playing great football. If you can't separate the two, then you never will.

Not only was Lawrence Taylor consuming copious amounts of cocaine, but his head coach has admitted that he knew what Taylor was doing. And despite this apparent lack of discipline and control Taylor was elected to the hall of fame, the head coach will soon follow, and the tandem played huge roles in bringing a Super Bowl championship to New York. A championship that nobody has insisted they return after Taylor confessed the details of his drug abuse in a tell-all-for-money autobiography.

Oh, one last thing. Watch the crowd shots of any game being played in Giants stadium and you'll see so many Lawrence Taylor jerseys you might believe he's still playing.

[HairOnFire]

Exactly. You have it down cold. And whether it's reached that point is something every fan with kids will have to ask him/herself. And clearly, a lot of them are asking those questions. If they decide it is, indeed, significant enough to "swear off the Bengals" until they do something about it, well, that's hardly a decision worth putting them down for, is it?

Well there's the rub. I wouldn't put anyone down who walked away from the NFL due to their disgust over the type of behavior that has become so common. However, I will continue to mock fans who endlessly complain as if this was the end of the world yet they refuse to abandon something so trivial as lending their support to a football team. And I'll also continue mocking anyone who insists that the Bengals are now somehow fundamentaly different than other NFL teams and as a result must operate differently than other teams.

The rules change for everyone or they don't change at all.

[ArmyBengal]

I liked reading this topic and offer only this...

I love the Bengals and always will... Why ?? Because they are the football team from my hometown and just like the sh*tty Reds, you always support them regardless. End of story... If it's getting harder to stay a fan, do us a favor and stop trying.

You can be a fan of your hometown team and yet still be able to explain right from wrong to your child. If you can't manage to accomplish that task, maybe some should rethink being a parent to begin with.

Do I like the fact the Bengals have arrest issues ?? NO !!! Do I like the fact the Bengals are constantly catching heat for all their problems ?? NO !!! However, they are MY team good, bad, or ugly and NOTHING and I mean NOTHING will change that until they no longer are the "CINCINNATI" Bengals...

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, just like I have stated mine. Agree, disagree, it doesn't really matter to me. I am a Bengals fan and will be for the remainder of my life and so will my son (if I have anything to say about it) !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Spain]

Ill tell you one thing that might be of interests to this conversation. My father just moved back to Virginia, norfolk. My sister is stationed there. He lasted 3 months and he is planing to move back to Spain. He simply couldnt accept the violence that is in the American culture. He tolld me that the marijauna being illegal and the guns has the place like the wild west. Americans really dont or cant realize how violent your culture is. You cant smoke pot but you can have a ak 47. Think about that.

[HoosierCat]

And I'll also continue mocking anyone who insists that the Bengals are now somehow fundamentaly different than other NFL teams and as a result must operate differently than other teams.

Fundamentally different? I don't know what you mean by that, but yes, they do need to revisit their criteria for adding players.

As you new favorite Enquirer sports columnist recently wrote:

The bigger issue with this latest self-righteous uproar over another Bengal bust is this: After four years, Marvin Lewis has failed to create a winning culture inside the home locker room. The best coaches find good players who are also solid people, and let them police the locker room. That's what Belichick has done in New England. It's what the Steelers have done, what Tony Dungy, by force of his quiet, calm decency, has done in Indy. It's missing here. Winning is not about having the best players... the Patriots proved that this year. It's about having good players who understand what it takes to win, and behave accordingly. The Bengals don't have that. They're not even close.

Why aren't they close? Well, Daugherty skirts that issue in his following post:

They've [Carson and Willie] made it clear how they feel about the ongoing actions of team knuckleheads. Good for them. Now, it's time for them to do something about it: Take control of your locker room. Peer pressure is a powerful thing in pro sports. If enough respected players take charge and set a tone, everyone else will follow.

But the problem isn't a lack of leadership in the locker room. Rather, it's the presence of too many guys with poor attitudes. Even the most cursory look at a prison will show you that when you put a bunch of bad apples together, they don't spontaneously start turning into good ones. There's too much negative reinforcement in the locker room, too many guys who will shrug their shoulders at Carson and Willie -- and Marvin.

So when adversity strikes, what happens? Well, we saw that at the end of this season. A team that lacked heart and resilience and urgency even as a playoff berth slipped away. And why should they care? After all, they have their smoke and their booze and all those hot chicks at the club; if they miss the playoffs, hey, at least they get four more weeks to party, right? So you show up on a few last Sundays, collect a paycheck, and off ya go. Of course, we saw that for a long, depressing period, and I think you'll pardon me if I don't welcome its return.

What the Bengals need isn't more leaders, but fewer rotten apples. Otherwise, they'll never take that next step.

[BengalByTheBay]

Let me give you an example, have you ever smoked pot or did you drink alcohol before you were of legal age? If you tell your kid not to do either of those things, and you have done them yourself, then you are (technically) a hypocrite....same principal. To give you some insight into the Bayster, I have done both of the above and believe you gotta come clean with your kids on that score.

Of course you do. But again, that's just the point. What is the title of this thread? "It's getting harder to stay a fan," right? Your example is perfect. The fact you've smoked (and yes, so have I) makes it all that much more involved to a task to discourage your kids. It makes it more difficult, because you have that whole, "do as I say, not as I did" thing to overcome. You have a whole 'nother level of discussion to go through versus some guy or gal who can honestly face his/her kids and say, I didn't smoke.

If you think it's beyond that and that liking the Bengals unequiovocally sends the message that you think it's okay to do whatever any of these allegedly significant "crimes" are, then by all means I suggest that you swear off the Bengals and tell your kids why. That's certainly a lesson to them as well.

Exactly. You have it down cold. And whether it's reached that point is something every fan with kids will have to ask him/herself. And clearly, a lot of them are asking those questions. If they decide it is, indeed, significant enough to "swear off the Bengals" until they do something about it, well, that's hardly a decision worht putting them down for, is it?

My response is, first, that it sounds like we agree on so much of this that the part we disagree about is pretty nominal. About that part, however, my example of having to explain to your kids your view of using pot if you had smoked it IS a difficult thing to discuss. It was intentionally chosen as an example of what I consider to be a REAL subject that IS fraught with a potential for hypocritical "do what I say not what I do" behavior. Liking the Bengals, wearing a jersey of a player, etc. is not, to me, "difficult" to explain at anywhere near the same level. Yes, some explanation to a curious child would be warranted. But you kind of prove my point for me when you try to make the subject of this thread rise to that level of importance or, in this context, "difficulty." It just isn't.

Which transitions quite nicely into the second point which, again, we are real close to agreement on -- if this Bengals situation IS, to you, of the same level of importance then I urge you to stop being a fan (of any NFL team or professional athlete other than Roger Federer) and tell your kids that it is because it offends your value system to see people acting that way. Then, immediately have the "I smoked pot and was a bad person, but I'm now a good person" conversation and why. For me, I like watching football and have since I played "smear the queer." I will continue to do so and simply do not equate my life or the important lessons that I intend to impart to my kids very strongly with whether Bengal players are getting arrested -- especially if it's for something that I don't really think is that big a deal. I wonder if everybody would still be getting so upset if JJoe got "arrested" for bui like Steinbach?

[HoosierCat]

But you kind of prove my point for me when you try to make the subject of this thread rise to that level of importance or, in this context, "difficulty." It just isn't.

According to you. Walter, via his article, clearly thinks it is. And I agree. Frankly, I find your position myopic, but it's your family and your call.

[HairOnFire]

So when adversity strikes, what happens? Well, we saw that at the end of this season. A team that lacked heart and resilience and urgency even as a playoff berth slipped away. And why should they care? After all, they have their smoke and their booze and all those hot chicks at the club; if they miss the playoffs, hey, at least they get four more weeks to party, right? So you show up on a few last Sundays, collect a paycheck, and off ya go.

The above makes for stirring reading, but it is so far from the truth to be of any real use. During the "Stretch-Drive-From-Hell" blotter boys Chris Henry and Jonathan Joseph performed so well that their level of play, and their sense of urgency, can't be questioned. That's hardly true for a mostly misfiring Carson Palmer, a mostly invisible Chad Johnson, a Bengal running game that lacked even a hint of consistency, a FG kicking unit that couldn't seen to perform the most mundane task, and a coaching staff that left itself open to 2nd guessing after each and every game.

Ehhh?

[HairOnFire]

And I'll also continue mocking anyone who insists that the Bengals are now somehow fundamentaly different than other NFL teams and as a result must operate differently than other teams.

Fundamentally different? I don't know what you mean by that, but yes, they do need to revisit their criteria for adding players.

Fundamentally different in the sense that they become ritually sacrificed by Roger Godell. Fundamentally different in the sense that Marvin Lewis should treat Jonathan Joseph differently because he's the 9th player arrested instead of the 1st. Fundamentally different in the sense that the Bengals immediately sacrifice important players who give them the best chance to win football games due to the current bloodlust of the media and their fanbase.

Do what is prudent, not what is popular. And I say that because the same fanbase that is currently calling for Chris Henry's head to be ritually lopped off is exactly the same one that shamelessly cheered when he caught the deep pass that put the Bengals in position to win a game that would have secured a playoff berth. C'mon, we both know that none of those wildly cheering Bengal fans reacted to that play by complaining..."No, don't throw it to THAT guy. We don't want to win THAT way."

[HoosierCat]

The above makes for stirring reading, but it is so far from the truth to be of any real use. During the "Stretch-Drive-From-Hell" blotter boys Chris Henry and Jonathan Joseph performed so well that their level of play, and their sense of urgency, can't be questioned.

0 receptions for 0 yards (Henry vs. Indy) is performing well? He caught jut 3 for 30 the next week against Denver. Those were tied for his worst, and his 4th worst, games of the year. He did finally step it up against Pitt, having his best game of the season, but by then it was too late.

Same with Joseph. He had just 7 tackles and a single pass defensed against Denver and Indy combined. Like Henry, his 10 tackles and 2 PDs against Pitt were a case of too little, too late.

Fundamentally different in the sense that they become ritually sacrificed by Roger Godell. Fundamentally different in the sense that Marvin Lewis should treat Jonathan Joseph differently because he's the 9th player arrested instead of the 1st. Fundamentally different in the sense that the Bengals immediately sacrifice important players who give them the best chance to win football games due to the current bloodlust of the media and their fanbase.

You're setting up straw men again. No one is suggesting that Godell throw the book at the Bengals; Godell himself has made it clear, in public coments and comments to the team, that he will do so. Marvin certainly needs to crack down, but not on Joseph because he's he 9th Bengal arrensted, but on the team because 9 arrests is just ridiculous. As for sacrificing players, I dont see any big outcry for this or that player to be cut.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

They've [Carson and Willie] made it clear how they feel about the ongoing actions of team knuckleheads. Good for them. Now, it's time for them to do something about it: Take control of your locker room. Peer pressure is a powerful thing in pro sports. If enough respected players take charge and set a tone, everyone else will follow.

But the problem isn't a lack of leadership in the locker room. Rather, it's the presence of too many guys with poor attitudes. Even the most cursory look at a prison will show you that when you put a bunch of bad apples together, they don't spontaneously start turning into good ones. There's too much negative reinforcement in the locker room, too many guys who will shrug their shoulders at Carson and Willie -- and Marvin.

So when adversity strikes, what happens? Well, we saw that at the end of this season. A team that lacked heart and resilience and urgency even as a playoff berth slipped away. And why should they care? After all, they have their smoke and their booze and all those hot chicks at the club; if they miss the playoffs, hey, at least they get four more weeks to party, right? So you show up on a few last Sundays, collect a paycheck, and off ya go. Of course, we saw that for a long, depressing period, and I think you'll pardon me if I don't welcome its return.

What the Bengals need isn't more leaders, but fewer rotten apples. Otherwise, they'll never take that next step.

I agree with this, and I would never rescind my fanship over a few bad apples and some bad leadership decisions.

There's too many bad apples in this bunch and there was clearly team strife and has been on this team the last couple of years.

Marvin needs to stop with the status quo and make some tough decisions, if he wants to keep his career on track.

This franchise for too long needs more guys who love football and care about winning and being great, than partying and slacking off because they can get away with it for a while.

If means kicking Thurman, Henry and Deltha to the curb and letting James go, so be it. Find replacements, spend some $ in the off season and be a little creative. Wouldn't hurt to get Chad in-line as well and get some of these star players some protection and teammates that can support them on the field, whom they can count on every week.

[HairOnFire]

0 receptions for 0 yards (Henry vs. Indy) is performing well? He caught jut 3 for 30 the next week against Denver. Those were tied for his worst, and his 4th worst, games of the year. He did finally step it up against Pitt, having his best game of the season, but by then it was too late.

No, it wasn't too late. Henry's catch and run put the Bengals in scoring position and that SHOULD have been enough to secure a playoff berth. In fact, after the catch the Bengals never attempted to run another meaningful play...so sure were they that Henry had put them in a perfect position to win the game.

In addition, in yet another game that could have secured a playoff spot for the Bengals Henry had a potential game winning scoring play (67 yards?) called back due to a Chad Johnson penalty....yet somehow you failed to mention Ocho Cinco in your rant about unfocused players derailing the chances of success for everyone else on the team.

Nor did you mention the way Carson Palmer missed throw after throw against the Colts and the Broncos, thereby negating any chance for any hard drinking and drug using Bengal player to cash a playoff game check. Also missing from your rant was any mention of a kicking unit that failed often enough for you to dust off the term....Bungle.

As for Joseph, it seems his post season arrest has prompted plenty of posters to suddenly question if he was really any good prior to being pulled over. Well, I think that's some completely worthless knee-jerk stuff and you're welcome to it.

[HoosierCat]

Nor did you mention the way Carson Palmer missed throw after throw against the Colts and the Broncos, thereby negating any chance for any hard drinking and drug using Bengal player to cash a playoff game check. Also missing from your rant was any mention of a kicking unit that failed often enough for you to dust off the term....Bungle.

No, I didn't forget. What do you think I meant by adversity? When your offensive linemen are going down and your QB is struggling you need guys to step up. No, Chad didn't, either, and there are fans who have their own questions about his attitude (look in the mirror, you'll find one).

As for Joseph, it seems his post season arrest has prompted plenty of posters to suddenly question if he was really any good prior to being pulled over. Well, I think that's some completely worthless knee-jerk stuff and you're welcome to it.

Another straw man. Where are all these people who say Joseph isn't any good?

[HairOnFire]

Another straw man. Where are all these people who say Joseph isn't any good?

Aren't you attempting to use stats to prove that Joseph wasn't the best player in the Bengals secondary down the stretch? And didn't I just have to wade through a series of posts written by other posters speculating that his dropped interceptions were the result of his young mind being clouded by demon weed?

Didn't I read a stat showing how Joseph had successfully defensed more passes than Tory James and Deltha O'Neal combined? Regardless, it sure seems like Joseph's play is suddenly being called into question AFTER being arrested. So where was the criticism of his play prior to that event?

I'd say it's fair to question his judgement...not his play. But then again, who really expects to find fairness in a feeding frenzy?

[HoosierCat]

Regardless, it sure seems like Joseph's play is suddenly being called into question AFTER being arrested. So where was the criticism of his play prior to that event?

Pretty much all over the place, or did you miss all the references to Jugs machines? And criticizing his play in the last few games is far from saying he was never any good.

[Riagogogoindanati]

Geesh.......I must have missed this one.

Anyhoo..............

I am a hard core Bengals fan. My dad groomed me from the tender age of 5. I have a rather large collection of jersey's from throughout the years but, have never really bought them because they were my favorite players, or I looked up to that particular player for inspiration. I bought them because I love jerseys and horde them. I have almost an entire closet full and have framed many of my nicer sewn ones that I have gotten autographed. Even a pair of Hanes tighty whities signed by Boomer (unworn, of course). When you walk into my den at home you'd swear you were in a Bengals time warp. i also have gotten signed jerseys from XU players who have gone pro and Pele. I am a fan of the Cincinnati Bengals no matter who is on the team. I will always be a fan through thick or thin......so those of your who even have one inkling of a doubt about them because of breaking the law......don't be such a hypocrite. There is not one person who has not broken the law at some point in their life. Spitting out your gum on the sidewalk or rolling thru a stop sign at 3 am. Get over it and get ready for the draft! True fans will prevail! Sounds like those bandwagonners are jumping ship. Good riddence, all you have done for this great Bengals fanbase is drag it down by your weight.

[HairOnFire]

I wonder if everybody would still be getting so upset if JJoe got "arrested" for bui like Steinbach?

I think we've wandered off the path into the misty forest where members of our tribe are reacting to numbers far more than considering the seriousness of the charges.

I mean c'mon, we're up to nine now, and that's almost ten, and ten is a double figure....and that can be a very intimidating thing.

Not so long ago we were discussing the infamous Fan-Jerk Line, a telephone number that fans could call to report the more spectacular examples of drunken behavior, fighting, or other related nonsense. In short, the behavior being witnessed in the stands had gotten so bad that many people felt the surroundings were unsuitable for young children or adults with delicate sensibilities. And keep in mind, the jerk-line was soley a Cincinnati thing....though it shouldn't have been.

Frankly, I'm an adult who considers NFL football to be adult entertainment so I'm not bothered by the sight of horrific injuries, nearly naked cheerleaders, or the puking sounds coming from the drunk guy sitting next to me. And if you point out the fact, and it is a fact, that the behavior of football players is less than commendable in far too many examples, well....they're football players.

What were you expecting?

Who hasn't heard Art Donovan tell stories about playing blind drunk, a besotted QB named Bobbie Layne throwing up on his centers back, or a grizzled John Unitas being handed a joint in the Chargers lockerroom on his very first day with the team? Most people hear those stories being told and laugh out loud...remembering them as colorful examples of rowdy "boys will be boys" behavior. So why do we freak out now?

This isn't anything new.

[HoosierCat]

So why do we freak out now?

Who's freaking out? You've cited an alleged "bloodlust" among fans and made several claims that there's a hue and cry for a "ritual sacrifice" by the NFL front office, or for the Bengals to cut players like Joseph, who was never any good anyhow, etc. -- but I can't find much support around here for those positions, or any of the other allegations of "freaking out" that you mention.

Really, who's freaking out? Driving in to work earlier this week, I was listenting to Golic and Greenberg's morning show -- Mike & Mike -- on espn radio, and they were discussing the Joseph arrest and the gun charges against the Bears' Tank Johnson. Their question, in fact, was not "why are people freaking out?" but, on the contrary, why doesn't anyone appear to care? Why do football players get a free pass when they do stuff like this, for which an NBA or MLB player would get hammered?

Looking around the board, the broad consensus seems to be that the Bengals seem to have more than their fair share of numbskulls; that parents are understandably concerned that pooh-poohing bad behavior by the bengals will send the wrong message to their kids; that the constant string of arrests is embarassing to both the fans and the team, and calls into question decisions made by both the coaches and the front office; and some amount of increased discipline in the coming year (which, in fact, Marvin has already promised) is needed. This constitutes "freaking out"?

[HairOnFire]

Really, who's freaking out? Driving in to work earlier this week, I was listenting to Golic and Greenberg's morning show -- Mike & Mike -- on espn radio, and they were discussing the Joseph arrest and the gun charges against the Bears' Tank Johnson. Their question, in fact, was not "why are people freaking out?" but, on the contrary, why doesn't anyone appear to care?

If nobody is freaking out then please explain the dozen or so threads devoted to this issue that can be found on this message boards two most recent pages? Or explain the number of your own posts devoted to a debate over role models, being honest with Little Timmy, the shame and embarrassment that some feel when wearing a Bengal hat, or simply being so disgusted that we're posting this very minute in an ever growing thread named..."It's getting harder to stay a fan."

Ehhh?

[HoTbOy]

While it hurts to hear your friends and the media make fun of your team, because of all the arrest, that is not affecting me 1 bit...I am not the 1 going to jail...football is only a game and people do have lives, they make the same stupid mistakes/decisions everyone else makes...These players wherever they may live are the 1's being embarrassed not me...as the old saying goes stick&stones...

[BengalByTheBay]

But you kind of prove my point for me when you try to make the subject of this thread rise to that level of importance or, in this context, "difficulty." It just isn't.

According to you. Walter, via his article, clearly thinks it is. And I agree. Frankly, I find your position myopic, but it's your family and your call.

So, you should stop supporting a team you find exhibits behavior that rises to such a significance...right? Myopic suggests that I can't see something that you can see and implies that your value system is superior. Try this -- I can see it as well as you I just don't think it's that big a deal. If that makes me more ignorant than you, feel free to your opinion. Exchanging IQ scores on a mb is about as impressive as challenging other posters to a fight in my opinion. Suffice it to say that I feel pretty confident in my level of education, professional endeavors, etc. So, if I'm stupid about this issue, it's probably just an anomaly.

[HoosierCat]

If nobody is freaking out then please explain the dozen or so threads devoted to this issue that can be found on this message boards two most recent pages?

I count six -- including one started by you. I guess that means you're freaking out, too.

Or explain the number of your own posts devoted to a debate over role models, being honest with Little Timmy, the shame and embarrassment that some feel when wearing a Bengal hat, or simply being so disgusted that we're posting this very minute in an ever growing thread named..."It's getting harder to stay a fan."

I had one very reasoned discussion with BengalByTheBay...in which we actually both ended up pretty much agreeing. Meanwhile, a sentence related to the subject that lacks sarcasm seems impossible for you to write. But I'm the one freaking out?

Ehhh?

Myopic suggests that I can't see something that you can see and implies that your value system is superior.

Sorry if I left you with that impression. My point about myopic refers to your view that there are two separate issues here: one, in your view, serious one about talking to your kids about pot, and a second, unrelated and not-serious ("it just isn't") discussion about the Bengals. I see the two as intertwined, for reasons that I think ought to be obvious. And I think the behavior of many Bengals players makes that drug discussion all the more complicated, and all the more fraught with mixed messages.

Frankly, I have no idea if my value system is superior to anyone's. All I know is it's worked for me so far.

[BengalByTheBay]

Myopic suggests that I can't see something that you can see and implies that your value system is superior.

Sorry if I left you with that impression. My point about myopic refers to your view that there are two separate issues here: one, in your view, serious one about talking to your kids about pot, and a second, unrelated and not-serious ("it just isn't") discussion about the Bengals. I see the two as intertwined, for reasons that I think ought to be obvious. And I think the behavior of many Bengals players makes that drug discussion all the more complicated, and all the more fraught with mixed messages.

Frankly, I have no idea if my value system is superior to anyone's. All I know is it's worked for me so far.

[HairOnFire]

If nobody is freaking out then please explain the dozen or so threads devoted to this issue that can be found on this message boards two most recent pages?

I count six -- including one started by you. I guess that means you're freaking out, too.

Well, I didn't actually count them...until now. (I came closer than you did.)

1-Bengal team Photo - Team photo taken behind bars.

2-Harder to stay a fan - Bengals making it hard to raise a family. Unable to look small children in the eyes.

3-Henry jailed - Mostly rants about cutting him. One funny story about a furniture moving mishap.

4-Joseph Arrested - Rants about him being no good stoner. Marvin no-tolerance stance dictates sacrifice?

5-Decline of Western Civilization Part IX - Media Guy suggest Marvin be forcibly removed as Head Coach.

6-Bengal Arrests not looking so bad.- Hilarious comparison of Bengal NoGoodNiks and national leaders.

7-Carson frustrated with latest arrest- Carson, Willie, and Thornton complain about image.

8-Get off your high horse-Paul Daugherty responds to the freaking out you insist isn't happening.

9-Congrats-Jditty sarcastically applauds the lack of arrests. Fate tempted. Predictable result follows.

10-Return of GM Debate- Team out of control. Marvin needs help. Minister of Misinformation?

As for the one thread started by me, I wasn't freaking out as you suggest. Anyone who read the thread could tell that I was simply mocking the "freaking out" being done by a member of the media. And I think that's an accurate description of any suggestsion that Lewis be removed from his position regardless of the wishes of the team owner. Less stupid, but along the exact same lines, are suggestions from Bengal fans that Marvin is to blame for the actions of other grown men, and should be fired if the trend continues....regardless of the teams won/loss record.

[redsrule2500]

Oh please...