It's getting harder to stay a fan

[membengal]

As I said somewhere, many many months ago on one of these very frequent threads, it was far more embarrassing to be a Bengals fan when they were struggling to get to 4-12 on an annual basis, and missed the playoffs for all those years running.

Arrests while mediocre? Not embarrassing.

[HairOnFire]

How about this then. The team should be embarrassed.

To what end? What actions are appropriate? Should the previous actions of others have any impact on the latest player to be arrested? Seriously, if the tribe of Bengala demands a bloody sacrifice...who should it be?

[MacD BengalFan]

I don't care how you slice it. All these arrests are embarrassing.

Fine, you're determined to be embarrassed. No matter what is said you're dead set on taking a silly game to serious extremes.

It actually is emarrassing. When I heard the news, my first thougt was "here we go again" while throwing my hands in the air. I am actually sick of the players acting like irresponsible stupid children that can't make a simple decision. One would think that the rest of the team learned from the transgressions of those last season. For once, I would like to go a month without hearing that a Bengal got arrested.

I agree it is a silly game, but those players represent us fans as well as the city of Cincinnati. And that is where the embassessment comes into play. We are looked upon by other fans in unfavorable light because we support the players involved. When I am addressed from other fans concerning this problem, I am actually ashamed and embarrased because I am loyal to the team. If you are not, then I would question your loyalty.

I guess maybe I should be thankful that it wasn't Chris Henry again.

[HairOnFire]

When I am addressed from other fans concerning this problem, I am actually ashamed and embarrased because I am loyal to the team. If you are not, then I would question your loyalty.

First, which fans of any NFL are in a position to bust your chops on this issue? Some teams have had fewer arrests while others have had more serious charges to deal with. Still others have higher profile players making headlines. But c'mon...if you can't fire back you're just not trying.

In addition, why are YOU ashamed and embarrassed? Don't you have enough drama in your life that you don't need to go in search of more? Aren't you aware that Jonathan Joseph isn't getting high in your name? He's getting high because he's young, he's got millions of dollars burning a hole in his pocket, plenty of free time on his hands, and he thinks getting high is fun. And again, smoking weed while you play video games may be against the law but he's not hurting anyone.

And I don't understand how you could question the loyalty of a fan who refuses to have a hissy fit over this issue. These guys are paid to play football and my interest in them is limited to how well they play.

[WhoDey93285]

Here's my take on the issue:

I love the Bengals. I always have. I always will. Something about seeingthose Striped helmets running all over the field in the cold fall weather just floats my boat. I will never stop being a fan. But, I will be the first to admit, its getting to the point where its getting harder to pull for a team so full of bad people. I've began to ponder this: I do not associatewith , or wish success upon, potheads, alcoholics, meth-heads, coke-addicts, woman beaters, ect. in real life, so why should I root for them and pull for them to succeed on the football field...?

I don't have an answer. Marvin has got to set an example of SOMEONE. He's got to do something. Cause honestly, this team is getting AWFULLY hard to defend. I won't be one of the fans that leaves if this continues, but there will be some. Like or not, its embarassing to fans, the Bengals franchise, and the city. It has to stop.

[BengalByTheBay]

Here's my take on the issue:

I love the Bengals. I always have. I always will. Something about seeingthose Striped helmets running all over the field in the cold fall weather just floats my boat. I will never stop being a fan. But, I will be the first to admit, its getting to the point where its getting harder to pull for a team so full of bad people. I've began to ponder this: I do not associatewith , or wish success upon, potheads, alcoholics, meth-heads, coke-addicts, woman beaters, ect. in real life, so why should I root for them and pull for them to succeed on the football field...?

I don't have an answer. Marvin has got to set an example of SOMEONE. He's got to do something. Cause honestly, this team is getting AWFULLY hard to defend. I won't be one of the fans that leaves if this continues, but there will be some. Like or not, its embarassing to fans, the Bengals franchise, and the city. It has to stop.

Okay, I'll play along. For me, life isn't so simple as "he smoked pot so he's a 'bad person'". If it is for you then I suppose this is an easy call. Some of the people I love most on this earth smoked and/or smoke pot. Whether I chose to do so or not at this point in my life doesn't diminish how I feel about them as people. I would not consider them "bad people" for that one trait. If life is as black-and-white to someone else as "he smoked pot so he's a bad person" then you sure as hell aren't going to be able to be a fan of any professional team in any sport....period.

The way I look at it -- it isn't written anywhere that I have to defend people that I really don't know because they play for the Bengals. Other than everybody having a discomforting (to me) level of interest in the personal habits of celebrities of every kind, I think it's a non-issue. Who cares what these guys do? They don't care about what you do.

The "what about the kids?" handwringing is a red-herring to me. My children will damn well know that wrong is wrong even if it's being done by somebody who they like -- whether it's Chad Johnson, Michael Jordan or my neighbor across the street. If they don't get that -- it's my fault and they're gonna have a lot harder time in life than me being embarassed by some NFL players. The thought that parents get to somehow shift responsibility for discussing their values with their kids by decrying public figures that should've done it for them is totally bogus. Members of Congress are going to jail -- there are no role models for your kids other than you, your family and your friends. Expecting Chris Henry to be anything other than an object lesson of mistakes in judgment to your kids is stupid. I think Charles Barkley is generally a clown -- but he's right that raising your kids isn't his responsibility.

So, I guess I come down with HOF on this one. Football is football and real life is real life. Just like movies and video games and [whatever] are fantasy and real life is separate. If you identify so strongly with the Bengals that you get personally embarassed when somebody gets arrested, I feel sorry for you. Do you get all excited and feel superior when one of the Squeelers or Rats gets arrested? Why? People seem to have so blurred the line between their lives and what happens on the television that they think it's really happening to them. Get some perspective -- every NFL team has got to have a big portion of players who are doing something you wouldn't like. If you think the Bengals are somehow representative of anything other than a relatively young team, I think you're misguided.

[MacD BengalFan]

When I am addressed from other fans concerning this problem, I am actually ashamed and embarrased because I am loyal to the team. If you are not, then I would question your loyalty.

First, which fans of any NFL are in a position to bust your chops on this issue? Some teams have had fewer arrests while others have had more serious charges to deal with. Still others have higher profile players making headlines. But c'mon...if you can't fire back you're just not trying.

In addition, why are YOU ashamed and embarrassed? Don't you have enough drama in your life that you don't need to go in search of more? Aren't you aware that Jonathan Joseph isn't getting high in your name? He's getting high because he's young, he's got millions of dollars burning a hole in his pocket, plenty of free time on his hands, and he thinks getting high is fun. And again, smoking weed while you play video games may be against the law but he's not hurting anyone.

And I don't understand how you could question the loyalty of a fan who refuses to have a hissy fit over this issue. These guys are paid to play football and my interest in them is limited to how well they play.

First, how many teams have had 9 different players arrested in the past 9 months? None. Granted, most teams have their share of off field problems through the years, but none have had the amount of problems that the Bengals currently have.

As to why I am ashamed and embarrassed? It is because of the association of being a fan to the team. Now will I give up that association because of this. No. I tried a few times in the 90's, I wasn't successful. So now I take the good with the bad, and there has been a lot of bad starting in 1991. We all want a positive light brought upon the team so all others can see how well they are doing and we can feel proud of the success. But when this kind of activity brings a foul light to the team, a dark cloud is then cast over not only the team, but everyone associated with it. And since I am associated to the team as a fan, I can't help but feel the embarrassment and shame that comes with this. Yes, I do have enough drama in my life to be concerned with things that are beyond my control. But I can't help but get embarrassed by the activities of those who are associated with a team that I am a fan of and the negative publicity it brings.

Now as far as throwing a hissy fit over this, at some point in time you have to say "enough of this nonsense" because of the association you have to the team as a fan. As a fan, I have tolerated this over the past year, saying "kids will be kids". But now I have had enough of this immaturity of these adults. Now I am saying "enough" because of the black cloud that is now cast over the franchise.

[Spain]

The footaball god, winner of the pickem, says. He will waste alot of sundays on this team. For years to come. Insanity , is repeating the same action , expexting another result. We are all MAD. Smoke pot were crazy anyway!

[HoosierCat]

This applies to sports in general and has been the same rehashed, it's about the kids, argument for the past 15 years.

Kids look up to athletes for what they do on the field -- most haven't a clue of their newsworthy actions. Unless of course, you invite that.

Their personal lives might make the news, but hopefully, as great parents I'm sure you all are, you reinforce what's right and wrong.

But that, of course, is Walter's point in the article. He isn't arguing, as your second sentence suggests, that JJ smoking pot or Odell boozing up before hitting the road is bad because your kid looks up to JJ or Odell. He's pointing out that, as a parent, it's a bit difficult to warn your kid away from this kind of stuff while you -- mom or dad -- are wearing an Odell jersey. "Do as I say, not as I do" is always a crappy argument.

The problem isn't about kids looking to athletes as role models. It's about kids looking to their parents as role models -- as they ought, right? And what does it say to those kids when their parents make excuses for the dumb behavior of players on their favorite team, while at the same time telling them not to do the same thing?

Yeah. If you're a parent, it does make it tougher. As a parent, you're expected to set an example, right? So...how many arrests before you do that? How many before you say to your kid, "I'm not buying any more tickets, I'm not buying any more gear, until this team stops signing these kinds of lamebrains, because I believe what they do isn't right and I don't want you to do it, either"?

You're a parent. You have to say that, right?

[duus]

But that, of course, is Walter's point in the article. He isn't arguing, as your second sentence suggests, that JJ smoking pot or Odell boozing up before hitting the road is bad because your kid looks up to JJ or Odell. He's pointing out that, as a parent, it's a bit difficult to warn your kid away from this kind of stuff while you -- mom or dad -- are wearing an Odell jersey. "Do as I say, not as I do" is always a crappy argument.

The problem isn't about kids looking to athletes as role models. It's about kids looking to their parents as role models -- as they ought, right? And what does it say to those kids when their parents make excuses for the dumb behavior of players on their favorite team, while at the same time telling them not to do the same thing?

Yeah. If you're a parent, it does make it tougher. As a parent, you're expected to set an example, right? So...how many arrests before you do that? How many before you say to your kid, "I'm not buying any more tickets, I'm not buying any more gear, until this team stops signing these kinds of lamebrains, because I believe what they do isn't right and I don't want you to do it, either"?

You're a parent. You have to say that, right?

You just repeated what I said in an earlier reply ... you just happened to do a better job at it.

That was exactly my point as well. I have no issue teaching my children that athletes are not role models. But when the very same team/organization/player that I, as a parent, root for and wear various clothing of represents itself off and on the field in a particular way ... well, that comes right back to Daddy. That is the one that is hard. Minimally, a part of me as a role model to my children is questioned due to ASSOCIATION. That's my point. That's what is so hard as a fan. I still hope and trust that over the next few years our Bengals will make us proud in ways beyond winning trophies. The opportunity is still there to correct this.

[walzav29]

Thank you Hoosiercat for gettingwhat I was talking about. You too are a genius.

[Spor_tees]

How about this then. The team should be embarrassed.

To what end? What actions are appropriate? Should the previous actions of others have any impact on the latest player to be arrested? Seriously, if the tribe of Bengala demands a bloody sacrifice...who should it be?

I don't get you...I really don't. I can't even see how you label yourself a fan of the Bengals. All the things you say on this board could be said on just about any board of another team in the league. All your feedback is just that generalized, and most of the time it is more twisting and remolding someone else's comments than something original. Rarely do you bring facts into an argument, mostly just your opinion. I think you already know what I and some others on the board value your opinion to be.

How can you say you don't take credit for when the team performs well if you are really a fan of the team? You mean when the Bengals beat the Steelers you have never rubbed it in a Steeler fan's face? If you really are a Bengal's fan I bet you have. So why the hypocrisy now? So are you a Bengal's fan or do you just frequent this board to try and vent your satire because you had a failed journalism career or something of the like?

I love when people distance themselves when something bad happens and simply try to make it a political or social problem than what it really is, rich guys being stupid and making OUR community look bad. This problem isn't always on the professional sports arena, but right now it is, and coming from guys that are part of the CINCINNATI BENGALS. So try and leave your left wing banter at the door or move it to the appropriate forum because honestly I am tired of seeing it on this board that is devoted to the Bengals. Bush has nothing to do with a group of rich professional athletes out joy riding getting drunk and smoking dope. They are breaking the law anyway you want to slice it. And I am just happy they are getting arrested for what they are doing and not getting let off the hook just because of their social status. I truly think that would be more alarming than them getting busted.

[BengalByTheBay]

But that, of course, is Walter's point in the article. He isn't arguing, as your second sentence suggests, that JJ smoking pot or Odell boozing up before hitting the road is bad because your kid looks up to JJ or Odell. He's pointing out that, as a parent, it's a bit difficult to warn your kid away from this kind of stuff while you -- mom or dad -- are wearing an Odell jersey. "Do as I say, not as I do" is always a crappy argument.

You're a parent. You have to say that, right?

Understood, but if you are the parent in that hypothetical situation, don't you use it as an opportunity to say something like "gee, I really like how this player plays football, but this shows you how somebody can be good at something and still make bad choices. Here's where I think Odell got into trouble...." If, on the other hand, you proudly wear your jersey and have t-shirts made up that say "Free Odell" then maybe you're giving your kid another message.

Try this one, however. Let's say you're wearing a #85 jersey and the same things are happening in the news. Does the fact that you're a Bengal fan and, in particular, a Chad Johnson fan mean that you're sending a message to your children that it's okay to drive drunk or high? I don't see that association and that is exactly what seems to be the point being made. Isn't Chad an example of a player who, to all appearances anyway, stays out of trouble and doesn't do what everbody seems to be so up-in-arms about? That gets to the root of this whole discussion, at some point you are talking about individuals on a team and, some appear to me to be arguing, at some point that becomes the entire team. I don't see it that way. You've all said it yourselves, if a player gets traffic stopped with pot on the Cardinals we might not even know it. That this "all of the Bengals are thugs" takes entirely out of the question (a) what the infraction was, and ( whether that should extend to a whole team. My guess is that by April there will be about 50-100 traffic stops of NFL players who were dui, does the breakdown of number of players by team mean anything? I don't believe it would represent anything other than a combination of randomness of getting caught combined with different regional traffic laws.

If a Bengal player is out there murdering somebody or getting clipped for a serious violent crime, I would be the first one to throw that individual under the bus. Getting stopped with a baggie of pot doesn't trigger my righteous indignance -- but that's just me.

[HairOnFire]

How can you say you don't take credit for when the team performs well if you are really a fan of the team? You mean when the Bengals beat the Steelers you have never rubbed it in a Steeler fan's face? If you really are a Bengal's fan I bet you have. So why the hypocrisy now?

You may not "get me"...but I get you. You're a fool who can't seem to function if someone doesn't share your opinion. How dare I disagree with you, right? How dare I embrace a minority opinion? How dare I ignore what we both know is reality when it's so easy for a pious asshat like you to pay lip service.

Hypocrisy? Let's do a test. I'll pay one very real dollar for each and every example you can find in the hundreds or thousands of posts I've written where I refer to the Bengals using the words we, our, or us. You can scroll back years, long before the current media storm began, but I'm betting you come up completely empty. At the very worst, you'll read thousands of posts I've written....thereby getting smarter and smarter in the process...and in the end I'll owe your dumb ass a fiver.

As for rubbing it in a Steelers face, I'm pretty sure all you'll find is me doing is laughing about "the Bengals" doing something or me crowing like a cock when one of MY own opinions is proven correct. But there's no "we crap" to be found in any of my posts because I'm not stupid enough to consider myself a Bengal. I'm just a fan of the Bengals.

Get it?

So there you go. I've now given you a chance to prove that I'm a hypocrite, and if you fail as badly as I know you will....you'll prove better than I can just how remarkably stupid you really are. Best, if you refuse to accept the challenge you'll prove that you have tiny little nuts that are no bigger than BB's.

So go. Find the proof of my hypocrisy...and you'll be richly rewarded.

Okay, I'll play along. For me, life isn't so simple as "he smoked pot so he's a 'bad person'". If it is for you then I suppose this is an easy call. Some of the people I love most on this earth smoked and/or smoke pot. Whether I chose to do so or not at this point in my life doesn't diminish how I feel about them as people. I would not consider them "bad people" for that one trait. If life is as black-and-white to someone else as "he smoked pot so he's a bad person" then you sure as hell aren't going to be able to be a fan of any professional team in any sport....period.

The way I look at it -- it isn't written anywhere that I have to defend people that I really don't know because they play for the Bengals. Other than everybody having a discomforting (to me) level of interest in the personal habits of celebrities of every kind, I think it's a non-issue. Who cares what these guys do? They don't care about what you do.

The "what about the kids?" handwringing is a red-herring to me. My children will damn well know that wrong is wrong even if it's being done by somebody who they like -- whether it's Chad Johnson, Michael Jordan or my neighbor across the street. If they don't get that -- it's my fault and they're gonna have a lot harder time in life than me being embarassed by some NFL players. The thought that parents get to somehow shift responsibility for discussing their values with their kids by decrying public figures that should've done it for them is totally bogus. Members of Congress are going to jail -- there are no role models for your kids other than you, your family and your friends. Expecting Chris Henry to be anything other than an object lesson of mistakes in judgment to your kids is stupid. I think Charles Barkley is generally a clown -- but he's right that raising your kids isn't his responsibility.

So, I guess I come down with HOF on this one. Football is football and real life is real life. Just like movies and video games and [whatever] are fantasy and real life is separate. If you identify so strongly with the Bengals that you get personally embarassed when somebody gets arrested, I feel sorry for you. Do you get all excited and feel superior when one of the Squeelers or Rats gets arrested? Why? People seem to have so blurred the line between their lives and what happens on the television that they think it's really happening to them. Get some perspective -- every NFL team has got to have a big portion of players who are doing something you wouldn't like. If you think the Bengals are somehow representative of anything other than a relatively young team, I think you're misguided.

I have nothing to add to the above post. In short, it's freaking perfect...or at the very least better than anything I could ever write. And I guess that explains all too well why the hand wringers haven't seen fit to respond to it.

Thus, I'm going to bump it every morning until they do.

[membengal]

Okay, I'll play along. For me, life isn't so simple as "he smoked pot so he's a 'bad person'". If it is for you then I suppose this is an easy call. Some of the people I love most on this earth smoked and/or smoke pot. Whether I chose to do so or not at this point in my life doesn't diminish how I feel about them as people. I would not consider them "bad people" for that one trait. If life is as black-and-white to someone else as "he smoked pot so he's a bad person" then you sure as hell aren't going to be able to be a fan of any professional team in any sport....period.

The way I look at it -- it isn't written anywhere that I have to defend people that I really don't know because they play for the Bengals. Other than everybody having a discomforting (to me) level of interest in the personal habits of celebrities of every kind, I think it's a non-issue. Who cares what these guys do? They don't care about what you do.

The "what about the kids?" handwringing is a red-herring to me. My children will damn well know that wrong is wrong even if it's being done by somebody who they like -- whether it's Chad Johnson, Michael Jordan or my neighbor across the street. If they don't get that -- it's my fault and they're gonna have a lot harder time in life than me being embarassed by some NFL players. The thought that parents get to somehow shift responsibility for discussing their values with their kids by decrying public figures that should've done it for them is totally bogus. Members of Congress are going to jail -- there are no role models for your kids other than you, your family and your friends. Expecting Chris Henry to be anything other than an object lesson of mistakes in judgment to your kids is stupid. I think Charles Barkley is generally a clown -- but he's right that raising your kids isn't his responsibility.

So, I guess I come down with HOF on this one. Football is football and real life is real life. Just like movies and video games and [whatever] are fantasy and real life is separate. If you identify so strongly with the Bengals that you get personally embarassed when somebody gets arrested, I feel sorry for you. Do you get all excited and feel superior when one of the Squeelers or Rats gets arrested? Why? People seem to have so blurred the line between their lives and what happens on the television that they think it's really happening to them. Get some perspective -- every NFL team has got to have a big portion of players who are doing something you wouldn't like. If you think the Bengals are somehow representative of anything other than a relatively young team, I think you're misguided.

Echo HOF. Until the hand-wringers can come back to this with anything approaching a cogent response, will keep bumping as well.

[duus]

Okay, I'll play along. For me, life isn't so simple as "he smoked pot so he's a 'bad person'". If it is for you then I suppose this is an easy call. Some of the people I love most on this earth smoked and/or smoke pot. Whether I chose to do so or not at this point in my life doesn't diminish how I feel about them as people. I would not consider them "bad people" for that one trait. If life is as black-and-white to someone else as "he smoked pot so he's a bad person" then you sure as hell aren't going to be able to be a fan of any professional team in any sport....period.

The way I look at it -- it isn't written anywhere that I have to defend people that I really don't know because they play for the Bengals. Other than everybody having a discomforting (to me) level of interest in the personal habits of celebrities of every kind, I think it's a non-issue. Who cares what these guys do? They don't care about what you do.

The "what about the kids?" handwringing is a red-herring to me. My children will damn well know that wrong is wrong even if it's being done by somebody who they like -- whether it's Chad Johnson, Michael Jordan or my neighbor across the street. If they don't get that -- it's my fault and they're gonna have a lot harder time in life than me being embarassed by some NFL players. The thought that parents get to somehow shift responsibility for discussing their values with their kids by decrying public figures that should've done it for them is totally bogus. Members of Congress are going to jail -- there are no role models for your kids other than you, your family and your friends. Expecting Chris Henry to be anything other than an object lesson of mistakes in judgment to your kids is stupid. I think Charles Barkley is generally a clown -- but he's right that raising your kids isn't his responsibility.

So, I guess I come down with HOF on this one. Football is football and real life is real life. Just like movies and video games and [whatever] are fantasy and real life is separate. If you identify so strongly with the Bengals that you get personally embarassed when somebody gets arrested, I feel sorry for you. Do you get all excited and feel superior when one of the Squeelers or Rats gets arrested? Why? People seem to have so blurred the line between their lives and what happens on the television that they think it's really happening to them. Get some perspective -- every NFL team has got to have a big portion of players who are doing something you wouldn't like. If you think the Bengals are somehow representative of anything other than a relatively young team, I think you're misguided.

Echo HOF. Until the hand-wringers can come back to this with anything approaching a cogent response, will keep bumping as well.

Alright, so now I'll play along. I do not put myself in the category of 'hand-wringer', especially knowing that I actually cannot think of anything that I 'wring my hands' over anyway ... let alone football. What I have attempted to communicate, however, is that, as a responsible (hopefully) parent, being a big fan of a team that the media shows as 'bad in the public eye' makes the 'parent image' a bit more difficult. A bit more difficult than what? Well, than many other NFL team's fans who happen to be responsible (again, hopefully) parents. Is this any bigger than other situations that arise in life and parenting? No way. Not even close. But what I was saying is that I just feel it shouldn't be this way. It shouldn't be one of those areas that I have to 'be concerned about'. It shouldn't be so 'bad in the public eye' that my child confronts me about. Can I handle it? Absolutely. Not a problem. I just never expected to have to deal with something to this magnitude regarding one of my favorite teams. That's all. Nothing more.

Not sure if that is 'cogent' at all ... but it is where I am. It's at least honest.

[HoosierCat]

Understood, but if you are the parent in that hypothetical situation, don't you use it as an opportunity to say something like "gee, I really like how this player plays football, but this shows you how somebody can be good at something and still make bad choices. Here's where I think Odell got into trouble...."

Of course you do. But you have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. To use a simple example, which is more effective: telling your kid to eat his vegetables while you push your to the side of the plate because you dont like them either; or telling him or her to eat their veggies while choking your own down even though you don't like them? Same principle.

[Spor_tees]

How can you say you don't take credit for when the team performs well if you are really a fan of the team? You mean when the Bengals beat the Steelers you have never rubbed it in a Steeler fan's face? If you really are a Bengal's fan I bet you have. So why the hypocrisy now?

You may not "get me"...but I get you. You're a fool who can't seem to function if someone doesn't share your opinion. How dare I disagree with you, right? How dare I embrace a minority opinion? How dare I ignore what we both know is reality when it's so easy for a pious asshat like you to pay lip service.

Hypocrisy? Let's do a test. I'll pay one very real dollar for each and every example you can find in the hundreds or thousands of posts I've written where I refer to the Bengals using the words we, our, or us. You can scroll back years, long before the current media storm began, but I'm betting you come up completely empty. At the very worst, you'll read thousands of posts I've written....thereby getting smarter and smarter in the process...and in the end I'll owe your dumb ass a fiver.

As for rubbing it in a Steelers face, I'm pretty sure all you'll find is me doing is laughing about "the Bengals" doing something or me crowing like a cock when one of MY own opinions is proven correct. But there's no "we crap" to be found in any of my posts because I'm not stupid enough to consider myself a Bengal. I'm just a fan of the Bengals.

Get it?

So there you go. I've now given you a chance to prove that I'm a hypocrite, and if you fail as badly as I know you will....you'll prove better than I can just how remarkably stupid you really are. Best, if you refuse to accept the challenge you'll prove that you have tiny little nuts that are no bigger than BB's.

So go. Find the proof of my hypocrisy...and you'll be richly rewarded.

So why are you here? did you respond only to part of my post because it was the easiest for you or because by taking only pieces of it you can twist it into what you want it to be? I never said you referred to the Bengals as "yours", "our," or "us", and you don't have to in order to run it into the face of another fan that your favorite team beat theirs. Actually you are making my point, you are here just to argue with people by taking the minority. The funny thing is, for the most part you rarely if ever use facts in your argument and state simply your opinion with nothing to back it up. The only thing I would learn by going back and reading all your past posts is how much of a snobbish, over bearing, left wing nut you are. I really don't see how someone can sit back and use the approach of a left wing liberal but with the better than you type attitude. Like I said...I don't get you...

[HairOnFire]

Actually you are making my point, you are here just to argue with people by taking the minority. The funny thing is, for the most part you rarely if ever use facts in your argument and state simply your opinion with nothing to back it up.

I'm in the minority on this issue, but my feet are normally firmly planted amongst the majority on most issues. It's just your bad lack that we don't agree on this issue and you're too stupid to make a convincing argument of your own.

I know that must be very frustrating for you, but I can't seem to bring myself to care.

As for facts and opinions, it's a football message board and the only posts that I find worthwhile are those that are centered on the writers opinion, and I assume that's true for most. Frankly, I can find stats anywhere. But I guess you're different because that's the second time in as many days that you've complained that I do little more than offer my own opinions. As if that were a bad thing.

In my opinion you're a whining little bitch who always hides behind the safety and comfort of the crowd, and from that safe position you attempt to belittle the opinions of those who don't agree with you by mindlessly repeating whatever knee jerk reaction seems most popular at the moment. And when challenged by the views of others the best you can do is repeat whatever you said originally, as if the act of repeating yourself over and over again was worthwhile or proof of anything. But what choice do you have? It's become painfully obvious that you've never had a single original thought in your entire life.

In fact, I think it might be appropriate if you changed your name to Anonymous.

[Spor_tees]

Yep...because I choose to follow the laws of society that makes me unoriginal. I guess I just can't be like you and be that rebel that you are. So are you the James Dean of the Bengalszone message boards? I think you remind me more of Ralph Nader.

[HairOnFire]

Yep...because I choose to follow the laws of society that makes me unoriginal. I guess I just can't be like you and be that rebel that you are. So are you the James Dean of the Bengalszone message boards? I think you remind me more of Ralph Nader.

And you remind me of Beaver Cleaver in a dress. Or worse, one of those fugging idiots that voted for Bush. Frankly, your kind owes this nation an apology.

Moving on...

I've never suggested that the Bengals willingly break laws or that their arrest record wasn't an issue. The question has always been how to react, and unlike yourself I'm not interested in falling all about the place in a fit of hiss. Nor am I interested in overreacting to such a degree that the Bengals are forced to operate differently than other NFL teams.

Sheesh, even the likes of you are smart enough to realize that this isn't an issue that is limited to the Bengals, right? So why should the Bengals cast off important talent so that idiots like you don't feel embarrassed and guilty about things that have absolutely nothing to do with you?

[belmontbengal]

My mistake, I thought this was a forum about the Bengals and football. Good grief, yall need to chill on the personal attacks! That's what I think.

Back to football, please.

[HairOnFire]

I'm more than willing to play nice. I'm also willing to continue responding to personal insults with insults of my own. Doesn't matter much to me either way.

I'm flexible.

[BengalByTheBay]

Understood, but if you are the parent in that hypothetical situation, don't you use it as an opportunity to say something like "gee, I really like how this player plays football, but this shows you how somebody can be good at something and still make bad choices. Here's where I think Odell got into trouble...."

Of course you do. But you have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. To use a simple example, which is more effective: telling your kid to eat his vegetables while you push your to the side of the plate because you dont like them either; or telling him or her to eat their veggies while choking your own down even though you don't like them? Same principle.

If by "walk the walk" you mean that wearing an Odell Thurman, Chris Henry, or even Chad Johnson jersey makes you an apologist for anything that a player on that team does, I guess we can agree to disagree. If you believe that a kid can't be a fan of the Bengals while realizing that players who get arrested f-ed up I can only say it's always been that way. In the 80's LT was plowing down blow like there was no tomorrow while playing great football. If you can't separate the two, then you never will. I'm saying I can and I think I could explain that to my kids without them thinking I'm a big fat liar. Let me give you an example, have you ever smoked pot or did you drink alcohol before you were of legal age? If you tell your kid not to do either of those things, and you have done them yourself, then you are (technically) a hypocrite....same principal. To give you some insight into the Bayster, I have done both of the above and believe you gotta come clean with your kids on that score. I think it has to be a discussion that includes some of the facts about consequences that I suffered, or should have suffered, by making those choices when I did. I don't know if that's the "right" way to handle it or not, but it's my gut feeling that this is the type of thing that is important enough to be an example to a kid (when they're old enough, ala jr. high-esque) that life isn't as simple as there being "good" people and "bad" people and you should just be good. Clearly, any discussion involving pro sports doesn't rise to that level of importance (to me anyway - possibly to some here), but if you do feel like your kid might be thinking you're a big fat hypocrite because you like the team and there are guys getting arrested, it's probably worth discussing it on that level. If you think it's beyond that and that liking the Bengals unequiovocally sends the message that you think it's okay to do whatever any of these allegedly significant "crimes" are, then by all means I suggest that you swear off the Bengals and tell your kids why. That's certainly a lesson to them as well.

[HoosierCat]

Let me give you an example, have you ever smoked pot or did you drink alcohol before you were of legal age? If you tell your kid not to do either of those things, and you have done them yourself, then you are (technically) a hypocrite....same principal. To give you some insight into the Bayster, I have done both of the above and believe you gotta come clean with your kids on that score.

Of course you do. But again, that's just the point. What is the title of this thread? "It's getting harder to stay a fan," right? Your example is perfect. The fact you've smoked (and yes, so have I) makes it all that much more involved to a task to discourage your kids. It makes it more difficult, because you have that whole, "do as I say, not as I did" thing to overcome. You have a whole 'nother level of discussion to go through versus some guy or gal who can honestly face his/her kids and say, I didn't smoke.

If you think it's beyond that and that liking the Bengals unequiovocally sends the message that you think it's okay to do whatever any of these allegedly significant "crimes" are, then by all means I suggest that you swear off the Bengals and tell your kids why. That's certainly a lesson to them as well.

Exactly. You have it down cold. And whether it's reached that point is something every fan with kids will have to ask him/herself. And clearly, a lot of them are asking those questions. If they decide it is, indeed, significant enough to "swear off the Bengals" until they do something about it, well, that's hardly a decision worht putting them down for, is it?