2003 & 2004 Drafts Revisited

[HoosierCat]

They say you need at least 3 seasons to get a handle on a draft, so we can only now really look back on the first two drafts of the Marvin Era.

In 2003 and 2004, the Bengals had a combined 20 draft picks, including 8 day 1 selections and 5 4th round picks -- essentially 3 years worth of draft picks crammed into two Aprils. A team whose mantra remains "build through the draft" couldn't ask for more, right? Unfortunately, you would have hoped they could have done a little more with all those choices, too.

Of the 20 players selected, 7 are no longer with the team:

Dennis Weathersby (4)

Matthais Askew (4)

Khalid Abdullah (5)

Maurice Mann (5)

Langston Moore (6)

Elton Patterson (7)

Casey Bramlet (7)

Of the remaining 13, 2 are by all accounts headed out the door:

Eric Steinbach (2)

Kelley Washington (3)

And another, Scott Kooistra (7) is an unrestricted free agent and may or may not be re-signed.

So, 45-50% of our 03-04 draft classes will be gone after March, including 2 of 8 day 1 picks.

Of the 10 remaining players, 3 are currently starters:

Carson Palmer (1)

Madieu Williams (2)

Jeremi Johnson (4)

And 1 more, Robert Geathers (4), looks likely to be a starter in 2007.

5 are backups and special teamers:

Keiwan Ratliff (2)

Caleb Miller (3)

Landon Johnson (3)

Stacy Andrews (4)

Greg Brooks (6)

And finally, one looks like a complete bust:

Chris Perry (1)

So, to summarize, out of 8 day 1 selections, the Bengals got 2 long-term starters, the same they got out of 12 day 2 picks. Overall, at least 50% of their 20 picks will be gone or busted, versus 20% who became or are becoming starters and a balance of so-so's.

In terms of grades, I would give the 2003 draft an A for Carson and an F+ the rest of the way. JJ looks like he will be the only other long-term survivor. Not much to show when you had 9 picks, including the No. 1 overall and the first selection in every round.

2004 gets a C+/B-. We got Madieu and Geathers and a decent collection of depth, but you have to expect more impact out of 5 day 1 picks.

[Walrus]

In terms of grades, I would give the 2003 draft an A for Carson and an F+ the rest of the way. JJ looks like he will be the only other long-term survivor. Not much to show when you had 9 picks, including the No. 1 overall and the first selection in every round.

2004 gets a C+/B-. We got Madieu and Geathers and a decent collection of depth, but you have to expect more impact out of 5 day 1 picks.

OK, first of all how can you dismiss Steinbach and KWash just because the team might (likely) decide to let them go. Many of those FAs being talked about elsewhere (Asante Samuel, Lance Briggs, etc) were drafted in '03 -- are they all "busts" because they couldn't stick with their teams?

With no further ado, here's my take:

2003

1. Carson Palmer: A+ -- like hitting the lottery.

33. Eric Steinbach: A -- he's done a fine job (Kimo-gate notwithstanding) and is one of the best at what he does.

65.Kelley Washington: B- -- never has bloomed into the player you know he could be, but he's done a lot of very good things and is a quality player; he's not gone yet, either.

98. Dennis Weathersby: Incomplete -- I refuse to dock Marvin and Co points for freak injuries.

118. Jeremi Johnson: A -- solid pro FB; does his job.

136. Khalid Abdullah: D -- good special teamer but was eventually cut; I think he had a bum ankle; I'd hope for more from a 5th rounder.

174. Langston Moore: C -- did ok for a while but was eventually cut; what do you expect from a 6th rounder?

215. Scott Kooistra: B -- has provided solid OL depth.

259. Elton Patterson: C -- didn't do much and was cut.

So of this draft, the only player who couldn't cut it as a pro was Abdullah. Weathersby is out by freak accident so he doesn't count. Kooistra is a solid backup, which is exactly what they were looking for when they drafted him in the 7th. Langston Moore and Elton Patterson are gone, but backups on other teams now. Everyone else in this class has performed well.

Maybe if I can get up the energy later I'll regale you with my take on the '04 Bengals draft class...

[HoosierCat]

OK, first of all how can you dismiss Steinbach and KWash just because the team might (likely) decide to let them go.

I dismiss them precisely because they let them go. Like I said to start off, the Bengals are a team which loudly and often remind us of their commitment to "build through the draft." Building implies longevity, otherwise you are just constantly rebuilding through the draft. From the perspective of individual players, yes, guys like Moore are still around and guys like Steiny might still be stars -- but if they aren't Bengals, who cares?

Just to add: I liked the 2003 draft, too, thought they had rung all the bells on the first day and gotten good value on day 2. I gave it an enthusiastic A at the time. But looking back now, Carson looks like the only saving grace.

[Kazkal]

Just to compare us to team who is suppossed be guru's at the draft.

Patriots

2003

1 13 Ty Warren DE Texas A&M (diden't step it up till this year so good pick)

2 36 Eugene Wilson FS Illinois solid

2 45 Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M is a viking

4 117 Dan Klecko DT Temple is now a colt

4 120 Asante Samuel CB Central Florida huge steal

5 164 Dan Koppen C Boston College starter

6 201 Kliff Kingsbury QB Texas Tech Cut

7 234 Spencer Nead FB Brigham Young cut

7 239 Tully Banta-Cain OLB CaliforniaNow a starter but they could stick me in at LB and be a probowler

7 243 Ethan Kelley NT Baylor cut / brown

2004

1 21 Vince Wilfork DT Miami awesome NT

1 32 Ben Watson TE Georgia May get long term deal unlike graham

2 63 Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State (3 tackles in 3 years)

3 95 Guss Scott FS Florida on his 3rd team

4 113 Dexter Reid SS North Carolinacut / a colt

4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB Arkansas gone

5 164 P.K. Sam WR Florida State cut

7 233 Christian Morton CB Illinoiscut

2003:3 starters 1 backup

2004:2 starters 1 backup

Total 5 Starters 2 backups.

Starters came from rnd:1,1,1,4,4,7

Chargers known for good drafts.

2003

1 30 Sammy Davis CB Texas A&M is now a 49er

2 46 Drayton Florence CB Tuskegee avg starter

2 62 Terrence Kiel SS Texas A&M starter but,I don't know much but I know chargers were wanting a S

3 80 Courtney VanBuren T Arkansas-Pine Bluffis now a lion

4 112 Matt Wilhelm ILB Ohio State special teamer/backup

5 149 Mike Scifres P Western Illinois starter but its a punter

6 188 Hanik Milligan SS Houston cardinal

7 229 Andrew Pinnock FB South CarolinaBackup fullback

2004

1 1 Eli Manning QB Mississippi Bust and woulden't play for em

2 35 Igor Olshansky DE Oregonstarter

3 65 Nate Kaeding K Iowa3rd rnd kicker starter

3 66 Nick Hardwick C Purduestarter

4 98 Shaun Phillips OLB PurdueStarter

5 133 Dave Ball DE UCLA jet

5 154 Michael Turner RB Northern IllinoisBackup who i will count for starter next season when hes traded

6 169 Ryan Krause TE Nebraska-Omahanon factor

7 204 Ryon Bingham DT Nebraskabackup

7 209 Shane Olivea T starter

7 254 Carlos Joseph T Miami no clue?

Chargers have kicked ass at drafting....but then again I hate how their players can use steriods and cheat and it's not big deal but henry and odell Henry smoke some pot which doesn't enhance their play at all and it's wrong !!!!!

[HoosierCat]

Nice breakdowns, kaz. Tho for the Chargers I think you have to consider that Eli turned into Rivers, so '04 really kicked some bolts for them.

I think you could probably find teams that did better, and worse, than the Bengals over those two years. But I also think it's clear the Bengals did not make the most of a big opportunity -- or at the very least had terrible luck.

It really gets ugly if you look forward another year. It's a bit early to pass judgement on the '05 class, but the day 1 trio of Pollack, Odell and Henry is on very shaky ground.

Really, if you want to know why the Bengals are the team they are, a good deal of the answer, I think, lies here. Marvin Lewis and -- for all the crap they take from some quarters -- his coordinators and assistants have really done a heck of a job getting the most of the team's draft picks. The problem is that they haven't been picking particularly well in the first place.

[Kazkal]

Can't catch a break on higher picks though heh....

Good guys (Perry and Pollack keep breaking)

Risks for high reward can't stay on field odell/chris

[Stripes]

That '04 Chargers draft is off the charts.

I don't think the Bengals did a bad job in '03 or '04. They came out with three solid starters in Carson, Jeremi, and Madieu. Our current depth showed itself often this year (Caleb, Landon, and Dancing Bear out of that group), and much of that came through those two drafts. 13 out of 20 picks still with the team is great, IMO.

I also think Steinbach should be considered when grading the draft, even if he is probably on his way out. I grade the draft from a 2003 perspective, not a 2007 perspective... and at that point, they grabbed top ten guard to be in the second round. I won't dock points simply because he was too good to come cheap this year (though he was far from good in 2006).