Odell likely done in Cincy

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Odell is worthless if he can't solve whatever substance abuse issue that is causing him to blow tests. He's already had a 1-year suspension. If he doesn't *quickly* start passing some tests, he'll never play in the NFL again, period, as a member of the Bengals or any other team.

[HoosierCat]

Honestly, I don't think Bengals will be getting rid of Thurman either. They can't afford to lose him, personel-wise and cap-wise.

I doubt there would be any significant cap hit from cutting Odell. As a second rounder he didn't get a big-money deal or big bonus.

[AMC]

Do we even know what Odell actually did and said that ticked Marvin off so bad? Yeah, we know it's drugs/alcohol or whatever, but as I recollect this past summer Marvin seemed to have a beef with Odell outside of those issues. I remember Odell had "family" issues that caused him to miss practices. That seemed to be when Marvin lost it with Odell.

So before we say Odell will be back we have to know exactly what went down between he and Marvin. And since we don't know that, we don't have a dang clue what will happen....

[jjakq27]

Honestly, I don't think Bengals will be getting rid of Thurman either. They can't afford to lose him, personel-wise and cap-wise.

I doubt there would be any significant cap hit from cutting Odell. As a second rounder he didn't get a big-money deal or big bonus.

I remember hearing that he signed a pretty bad contract. I don't know what his bonus was but he was getting less than $500K per year.

[HoosierCat]

Per an old espn.com report, Odell signed a 5 year deal worth $3.76 million, including a $1.7 million signing bonus. He was set to make $350k base salary in 2006 (which I believe was all forfeit due to the suspension).

Figure he was probably due to make around $400k in salary in '07. The signing bonus prorates out to $340k/year over the lifetime of the contract. So his cap hit for '07, if he were on the squad, was scheduled to be about $700k, maybe a bit more.

Assuming the Bengals still got to absorb the prorated piece of the bonus during the suspension year, that means there's a bit more than $1 million left to go. So net-net, cutting Odell would cost the Bengals only about $300k in additional cap space.

[delhole]

Per an old espn.com report, Odell signed a 5 year deal worth $3.76 million, including a $1.7 million signing bonus. He was set to make $350k base salary in 2006 (which I believe was all forfeit due to the suspension).

Figure he was probably due to make around $400k in salary in '07. The signing bonus prorates out to $340k/year over the lifetime of the contract. So his cap hit for '07, if he were on the squad, was scheduled to be about $700k, maybe a bit more.

Assuming the Bengals still got to absorb the prorated piece of the bonus during the suspension year, that means there's a bit more than $1 million left to go. So net-net, cutting Odell would cost the Bengals only about $300k in additional cap space.

Well thats not bad at all. I wish I understood the cap alot more than I do

[TJJackson]

of course, you have to pay his replacement as well.....

[HoosierCat]

Well thats not bad at all. I wish I understood the cap alot more than I do

I clearly have way too much time on my hands...

of course, you have to pay his replacement as well.....

Tru dat. Of course, since the advance selection of Brooks, they already are...

[HoTbOy]

OThurman will be MLewis's 1st casualty since he made his statement that he will be cracking down...

[HairOnFire]

Assuming the Bengals still got to absorb the prorated piece of the bonus during the suspension year, that means there's a bit more than $1 million left to go. So net-net, cutting Odell would cost the Bengals only about $300k in additional cap space.

In other words, the cost of cutting Odell isn't prohibitive....explaining why the risk of selecting him in the draft wasn't great. Which is exactly what I've said all along, and exactly what ESPN writer David Fleming said when he compared the money paid to Shawne Merriman and Odell Thurman and concluded that taking chances on character risks like Thurman and Henry had actually served the Bengals very well.

OThurman will be MLewis's 1st casualty since he made his statement that he will be cracking down...

How quickly we forget the way Matthias Askew was sacrificed on the altar of illegal parking.

[HoosierCat]

In other words, the cost of cutting Odell isn't prohibitive....explaining why the risk of selecting him in the draft wasn't great.

The financial risk wasn't great. But that's cold comfort when you look at the ongoing hole at MLB.

[HairOnFire]

In other words, the cost of cutting Odell isn't prohibitive....explaining why the risk of selecting him in the draft wasn't great.

The financial risk wasn't great. But that's cold comfort when you look at the ongoing hole at MLB.

If the money isn't being paid to Thurman it can be used elsewhere. But without assuming the non-financial risk you never get the benefit of the type of production Thurman produced as a rookie, and with a little luck may have given for much longer. Of course you can argue that that isn't likely to happen now, but there are no guarantees included when you draft any player. For example, nice guy David Pollack cost the Bengals a higher draft pick and far more money than Odell Thurman ever will, but as of this moment Thurman had a greater impact than Pollack.

And let's not forget Chris Henry, right? A little bit of risk and a fraction of the pay you'd have to commit to a any other player with his talent managed to produce more TD's this season than Pro Bowler Chad Johnson scored.

[aaronburr]

Do we even know what Odell actually did and said that ticked Marvin off so bad? Yeah, we know it's drugs/alcohol or whatever, but as I recollect this past summer Marvin seemed to have a beef with Odell outside of those issues. I remember Odell had "family" issues that caused him to miss practices. That seemed to be when Marvin lost it with Odell.

So before we say Odell will be back we have to know exactly what went down between he and Marvin. And since we don't know that, we don't have a dang clue what will happen....

I couldn't prove it, but I suspect that Marvin saw a chance to be a father figure to Odell and took it personally when Odell let him down. Odell probably fed him a line of bull after the first drug violation, then was proved to be a liar when the second violation came. Other than the personal side of things, there's really no explanation why Odell would be treated so much harsher than Henry.

Unless this is Marvin's version of tough love. And if that's the case, Marvin's proving to be very good at it. I can't think of another time when a player was treated this poorly and still not been cut. (Unless the suspension somehow prevents Odell from being cut).

As for next year, I don't think Odell will be cut outright. He'll be given a chance to make the team (again, don't know how the suspension affects spring practice, etc.) but he'll be treated like a walk-on to the junior varsity team. But under the microscope like a contract-year player coming off of major reconstructive surgery.

If he turns things around and proves Marvin wrong (which might be what Marvin wants), then he'll be starting by mid-season. But if he fails to demonstrate that he was worthy of Marvin's devotion in year 1, then he won't survive the first cutdown.

And money has nothing to do with it.

[coupdayta]

I'm a bit confused here. Chris Henry gets arrested like 6 times and he's still playing for this team. Odell misses a drug test then gets a DUI and is suddenly the black sheep of this organization. Why do we keep Chris Henry and not Odell Thurman? I'm not sure Henry has done much more than Thurman to show he's made an attitude adjustment.

[Kazkal]

Honestly, I don't think Bengals will be getting rid of Thurman either. They can't afford to lose him, personel-wise and cap-wise.

I doubt there would be any significant cap hit from cutting Odell. As a second rounder he didn't get a big-money deal or big bonus.

1million cap hit...but we could be expected pay him his entire contract if it was found we diden't cut him because of performance reasons which is hard to beleive.

http://cap.go-bengals.com/

Well thats not bad at all. I wish I understood the cap alot more than I do

I clearly have way too much time on my hands...

of course, you have to pay his replacement as well.....

Tru dat. Of course, since the advance selection of Brooks, they already are...

don't you mean caleb miller.

OThurman will be MLewis's 1st casualty since he made his statement that he will be cracking down...

Ahhh so thats why we picked up someone who spent 300 days in jail...

As for next year, I don't think Odell will be cut outright. He'll be given a chance to make the team (again, don't know how the suspension affects spring practice, etc.) but he'll be treated like a walk-on to the junior varsity team. But under the microscope like a contract-year player coming off of major reconstructive surgery.

If he turns things around and proves Marvin wrong (which might be what Marvin wants), then he'll be starting by mid-season. But if he fails to demonstrate that he was worthy of Marvin's devotion in year 1, then he won't survive the first cutdown.

And money has nothing to do with it.

Agreed.

I'm a bit confused here. Chris Henry gets arrested like 6 times and he's still playing for this team. Odell misses a drug test then gets a DUI and is suddenly the black sheep of this organization. Why do we keep Chris Henry and not Odell Thurman? I'm not sure Henry has done much more than Thurman to show he's made an attitude adjustment.

Because people have short memorys and it's all about what you've done for me lately...plus henry had carson backing him

[Spor_tees]

Assuming the Bengals still got to absorb the prorated piece of the bonus during the suspension year, that means there's a bit more than $1 million left to go. So net-net, cutting Odell would cost the Bengals only about $300k in additional cap space.

In other words, the cost of cutting Odell isn't prohibitive....explaining why the risk of selecting him in the draft wasn't great. Which is exactly what I've said all along, and exactly what ESPN writer David Fleming said when he compared the money paid to Shawne Merriman and Odell Thurman and concluded that taking chances on character risks like Thurman and Henry had actually served the Bengals very well.

OThurman will be MLewis's 1st casualty since he made his statement that he will be cracking down...

How quickly we forget the way Matthias Askew was sacrificed on the altar of illegal parking.

The risk reward factor reaches a lot farther than one year of good playing. If Odell never plays for the team again we basically lost a second round draft pick. Concurrently, if Henry gets suspended for a year or more then we lost a third round draft pick too. So if the Bengals are pressed to build a team for the future through the draft and not through free agency, how are they going to do that if they keep bringing in guys that are going to play for only one or two years and then be done? If you are going to do that, you might as well sign free agents to 2 year contracts and draft guys that need 2 years to develop.

[Bengalhead]

Quote: Asked if Thurman could be part of the team again, Lewis said, "I don't know that. I don't see it on our horizon."

Marvin is playing this one very slick. Reading between the lines, he'll be at training camp and see how it goes. "I don't know that" leaves a lot of room for him to keep him and still be able to say he didn't mislead anyone.

I, for one, think he should be brought to camp. If he still has the goods to play, either keep him or trade him then when he might have some good value to a team is hurting for a LB and has to take a chance.

Hell be back...

What part of this quote don't you understand? "Odell is not a member of this football team," Lewis said Tuesday. "He's on suspension by the NFL. He's got a long road to go. I'm not even going to spend any time talking about Odell.

"We're talking about our '07 season. He's not part of this football team. We don't need to talk about it."

Assuming the Bengals still got to absorb the prorated piece of the bonus during the suspension year, that means there's a bit more than $1 million left to go. So net-net, cutting Odell would cost the Bengals only about $300k in additional cap space.

In other words, the cost of cutting Odell isn't prohibitive....explaining why the risk of selecting him in the draft wasn't great. Which is exactly what I've said all along, and exactly what ESPN writer David Fleming said when he compared the money paid to Shawne Merriman and Odell Thurman and concluded that taking chances on character risks like Thurman and Henry had actually served the Bengals very well.

OThurman will be MLewis's 1st casualty since he made his statement that he will be cracking down...

How quickly we forget the way Matthias Askew was sacrificed on the altar of illegal parking.

The risk reward factor reaches a lot farther than one year of good playing. If Odell never plays for the team again we basically lost a second round draft pick. Concurrently, if Henry gets suspended for a year or more then we lost a third round draft pick too. So if the Bengals are pressed to build a team for the future through the draft and not through free agency, how are they going to do that if they keep bringing in guys that are going to play for only one or two years and then be done? If you are going to do that, you might as well sign free agents to 2 year contracts and draft guys that need 2 years to develop.

Pretty interesting point, I agree.

[agreen_112]

He'll be back.... He'll be that same Monster we seen in '05.

[HairOnFire]

The risk reward factor reaches a lot farther than one year of good playing. If Odell never plays for the team again we basically lost a second round draft pick. Concurrently, if Henry gets suspended for a year or more then we lost a third round draft pick too. So if the Bengals are pressed to build a team for the future through the draft and not through free agency, how are they going to do that if they keep bringing in guys that are going to play for only one or two years and then be done?

First, teams burn draft picks all the time. They often package several of them in exchange for a single unproven player or use them on raw players who have a far lower chance of success but a much higher upside. This example is no different and depending on the circumstances the negative results can be quite small. For example, we're currently discussing how little long or short term impact cutting Odell Thurman would have, and that's true because his total contract was about one fifth the size of that paid to Shawne Merriman. And that smaller contract was the direct result of Thurman falling in the draft to a point where his character risks were balanced by the potential reward. So if the financial impact of cutting the player is miniscule...then so is the risk.

Last, all players are drafted under the broad brush of "building for the future"...but it seems pretty obvious, at least to me, that Odell Thurman and Chris Henry were selected precisely because they helped the Bengals win immediately. Granted, both players may blow up entirely, but without Thurman the Bengals don't make the playoffs last season and without Henry they're forced to make do without some pretty amazing scoring production.

[Spor_tees]

The risk reward factor reaches a lot farther than one year of good playing. If Odell never plays for the team again we basically lost a second round draft pick. Concurrently, if Henry gets suspended for a year or more then we lost a third round draft pick too. So if the Bengals are pressed to build a team for the future through the draft and not through free agency, how are they going to do that if they keep bringing in guys that are going to play for only one or two years and then be done?

First, teams burn draft picks all the time. They often package several of them in exchange for a single unproven player or use them on raw players who have a far lower chance of success but a much higher upside. This example is no different and depending on the circumstances the negative results can be quite small. For example, we're currently discussing how little long or short term impact cutting Odell Thurman would have, and that's true because his total contract was about one fifth the size of that paid to Shawne Merriman. And that smaller contract was the direct result of Thurman falling in the draft to a point where his character risks were balanced by the potential reward. So if the financial impact of cutting the player is miniscule...then so is the risk.

Last, all players are drafted under the broad brush of "building for the future"...but it seems pretty obvious, at least to me, that Odell Thurman and Chris Henry were selected precisely because they helped the Bengals win immediately. Granted, both players may blow up entirely, but without Thurman the Bengals don't make the playoffs last season and without Henry they're forced to make do without some pretty amazing scoring production.

There is a huge flaw in your argument. When you say teams package draft picks together all the time in a trade, they aren't just giving away those draft picks for nothing. They are getting something in return for those draft picks. Also the problem here is, the Bengals don't believe in adding many players to the team through free agency, but instead building through the draft. So, when you take away high draft choices and then don't spend money on free agents, you are left with old players playing positions that they shouldn't be playing (*Cough* Brian Simmons) and a team that doesn't have the ability to get over the hump. You can't start over the building process every year on the defense. Eventually you have to find a plan, find players, and stick with it. Financial things have nothing to do with this, this is about wasting picks that could fill future holes in your team.

[HairOnFire]

There is a huge flaw in your argument.

The biggest flaw in my argument is that I'm debating against people who are armed with the flawless vision that comes with hindsight.

We now know things that weren't a given when the decisions were made, and I'm not going to try very hard to put lipstick on that pig. All I can do is remind you of the quality of play we've gotten by selecting a few risky players whose talent was purchased for pennies on the dollar. And the last point has always been of critical importance since it deals directly with the teams ability to cut it's losses and correct it's mistakes.

Sure, in hindsight everyone wants their 2nd and 3rd round draft picks back, mostly because hindsight allows them to make perfect corrections. But that's not the way it works. Without perfect hindsight you're just as likely to use the pick that landed Odell Thurman on a different version of Chris Perry, Keiwan Ratliff, or David Pollack.

Those guys are all high character types, right? Well how's that working out?

[oldschooler]

What part of this quote don't you understand? "Odell is not a member of this football team," Lewis said Tuesday. "He's on suspension by the NFL. He's got a long road to go. I'm not even going to spend any time talking about Odell.

"We're talking about our '07 season. He's not part of this football team. We don't need to talk about it."

I understand it perfectly. Odell ISN`T a part of this team. He is suspended.

He CAN`T be a part of the team UNTIL he is allowed to become part of

the team after his suspension is over.

He has a long way to go, meaning he has to take drug test, and be declared eligible

to return.

This is the exact quote from Marvin on Odell.

"Odell is not a member of this football team," said Lewis, pointedly. "He's on suspension by the NFL. He's got a long road to go. I'm not even going to spend any time talking about Odell. We didn't talk about Odell since the summer training camp, so I'm certainly not going to talk about Odell now. We're talking about our '07 season. He's not a part of this football team. We don't need to talk about it.

"I don't see (Thurman's return) on our horizon. It would be speculative."

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...10/1022/RSS0302

This was also a quote from Marvin. He said Odell has a long way to go first.

So of course he doesn`t see his return on their horizon. He says to say he

would return and not knowing if Odell does what he is supposed to do, and be

cleared to return, would be speculating.

Odell is signed for 3 more years. He knows the coaches, system and players.

Everytime Henry got arrested, Odell was nowhere to be found.

The one time McNeal got arrested, Odell was nowhere to be found.

The one time Odell got arrested, He was driving McNeal`s car, while Henry was puking out the window.

I think releasing him would be asinine.

I think if he has proven that he "get`s it". Stays out of trouble

the rest of the Offseason and gets some help, you bring him into training camp and

let his play decide if he makes the roster, where he is on the depth chart ect...

[cinci_bengals]

Your right it does depend.Think he could be back up or he could be a different position for fat guys .Like Lineman or somethin'.

[HoosierCat]

Without perfect hindsight you're just as likely to use the pick that landed Odell Thurman on a different version of Chris Perry, Keiwan Ratliff, or David Pollack.

Again, layers of risk. Any draft pick can blow up because of injury. Selecting guys who can blow up over dope or booze or criminal activities simply increaes the likelihood you waste a pick. I'll take that chance with a 5th like Nicholson, but not with a day 1 pick.