Thug Life: Part XXXXIVV

[HairOnFire]

Marvin Lewis stood in a dank cement corridor beneath the stands of Paul Brown Stadium, the sides of which were lined with large, black, plastic rodent traps. It was late September, and if ever there was a time for contrition, this was it.

On Sept. 20, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell had visited the Bengals and spoken about the responsibility of being professional football players. Five days later, just hours after Cincinnati improved to 3-0 with a 28-20 win in pissburgh, the team's leading tackler last season, linebacker Odell Thurman, was arrested by Cincinnati police for DUI. This was Thurman's third violation of the league's substance-abuse policy and it would result in a yearlong suspension. As if that weren't bad enough, Bengals wideout Chris Henry had been seen vomiting out the side window of Thurman's SUV. Henry, meanwhile, was just two weeks removed from pleading guilty to a gun charge in Florida. In January 2006, while in Orlando, police there say, he stepped from a limo wearing his own black-and-orange Bengals replica jersey and pointed a 9mm Luger into a crowd.

Yet when asked that cold and rainy September day how these off-field issues might be affecting the Bengals' performance, Lewis threw up his hands in frustration and began to stomp away. At the door of his team's locker room, he stopped and pointed inside. "It has not made one bit of difference to them," Lewis said. "To the guys in there, the coverage is almost comical. The most important thing to me when you say the word character is the locker room. The problem is, there's no way for the outside world to evaluate the kind of character that's important to players."

He may have a point. The Bengals find themselves atop the AFC wild-card race while piling up wins and arrests, two categories normally considered mutually exclusive. In the past year, eight Cincinnati players have been arrested a total of 12 times. The Bengals' spree has been so pervasive that, after bumping off Baltimore 13-7 on Nov. 30, the last thing Lewis said to the team inside the locker room was, "Stay out of trouble, and be careful." Three days later, rookie wideout Reggie McNeal became No. 7 on the list when he was charged with resisting arrest in Houston after a disturbance outside a nightclub. A week after that, veteran cornerback Deltha O'Neal (No. 8) was charged with DUI. That prompted Goodell to invite himself into the situation again and to ask the Bengals if he could help.

At 8-5 heading into Monday night's game against the Colts, the Bengals are poised for a second straight postseason appearance. They're also threatening to obliterate what was thought to be a fundamental NFL truth: that moral fiber, at least as defined in conventional terms, relates to on-field success, and that there is no difference between the kind of character that matters to teams and the kind that matters to their fans. "This is where things get interesting," said Panthers defensive end Mike Rucker, before his team's Oct. 22 loss to Cincy. "In football, you need a mix. You can't win with 53 choirboys. This can be a grimy, nasty sport, and you need people who are a little grimy and nasty."

It's a dirty reality that teams like the Bengals and Chargers and Bears force us to acknowledge. That talent and power, not manners, win games. That football mirrors society, it doesn't transcend it. And that as much as we want to think of football as a secular form of religion, no one in this church -- not fans, owners or coaches -- values character more than conquest. If they did, the sign in the Bengals' locker room would read "Be a Super Good Person Today" instead of "Do Your Job."

"In the old days, you talked about character if a guy played hard, played hurt and was a tough-minded guy you could count on," says Bengals Pro Bowl tackle Willie Anderson, an 11-year veteran. "That's what character was. It's so different now."

Take Henry, for example. Outside Paul Brown Stadium, he has been nothing short of a basket case since Cincy drafted him out of West Virginia in the third round of the 2005 draft. In addition to the gun charge, he has also pleaded guilty to -- and was benched one game in December 2005 for -- marijuana possession, was arrested again in June for allegedly providing alcohol to three underage females in a hotel room (the trial is in January) and served a two-game suspension this season for violating the league's personal-conduct policy.

But inside the Bengals' locker room, Henry is regarded as a model teammate. And therein lies the difference between the kind of character that matters to teams and that which matters to fans. Henry's coaches and teammates say he shows up on time, pays attention in meetings and goes about his football business as quietly as a mouse. When he does speak, Henry addresses coaches with barely audible "Yes, sirs" and "No, sirs." He works hard in practice, has played through injuries and has quickly developed into the Bengals' No. 3 receiver, with 29 catches for 451 yards (15.6 ypc) and 7 TDs, the same number as Chad Johnson. "These guys couldn't have been better," says Henry of his teammates' support. "They are all good at taking a young guy under their wing to help him learn."

Seen through the lens of the team, Henry's off-field behavior, as outlandish as it is, has not been anywhere nearly as disruptive as that of, say, former Bengals bad boys Carl Pickens and Corey Dillon. In the late 1990s, Pickens became so surly and divisive that the Bengals used to insert a "loyalty clause" in team contracts that prohibited players from ripping the club in public. Dillon, meanwhile, forced his way out by heaving his shoulder pads into the Paul Brown stands and saying he'd rather "flip burgers" than play for the Bengals. "Bad character to a teammate is different from what bad character is to the outside world," says Bengals wideout T.J. Houshmandzadeh. "All teammates think is, Can you help us win or not?"

That philosophy explains the vast difference in how Carson Palmer has reacted to Henry this season. After Henry caught the Bengals' first two scores in that September win at pissburgh, Palmer dismissively said of his teammate's off-field transgressions, "He's just a guy who's been in the wrong place at the wrong time a couple of times." Compare that to Palmer's explosive response when Henry gave up on a deep route during a Nov. 5 Cincy loss to Baltimore. The normally Cali-cool QB tracked down Henry and chewed his butt out with the whole world watching. The message was clear: I'm cool with your being at the wrong place at the wrong time, just not while running routes on Sunday.

If anything, "poor character" has actually helped Cincy. When Lewis took over in 2003, the Bengals had gone 12 straight seasons without a winning record. Three years later, they were AFC North champs. Lewis got them there in part by drafting and signing explosive, eye-popping, first-round-caliber talent for bargain-basement prices. Thurman was one of the top linebackers in the 2005 draft. But while at Georgia, he was kicked off the squad for one year for multiple infractions, and he admitted to testing positive for marijuana. That caused him to fall to Cincy in the second round, and he signed a five-year, $3.76 million deal. When he arrived, Thurman, whose mom died when he was 10 and his dad when he was 20, instantly saw Lewis as a father figure. He was inspired to finish with five picks and a team-high 148 tackles, making him a candidate for NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year. And he cost just a fraction of the price of the eventual winner, Shawne Merriman, a first-rounder with a five-year, $15.73 million deal and a $9 million bonus (and a four-game suspension this season for steroid use).

Lewis selected Henry in the third round. At 6-foot-4 with 4.42 speed, big hands and, for a big receiver, a unique ability to separate from defenders at the top of routes, Henry has physical gifts that put him in the Randy Moss stratosphere. But during his junior season in Morgantown, he was kicked out of one game for unsportsmanlike conduct and suspended for disciplinary reasons. As a result, the Bengals were the only team to bring Henry in for a visit. When he fell to the third round, Cincy snagged him with a five-year, $2.79M deal and an $865,000 bonus, a paltry sum for a productive player compared with, say, Atlanta's 2005 No. 1 pick, receiver Roddy White. He signed a five-year, $7.3M deal with a $4.47M bonus -- and has three career TDs.

Emboldened by his success, Lewis saw his honorable intention to act as a guide to young, directionless players morph into the classic case of a coach who believed he could change anyone. It began to get the better of him at the 2006 draft. With several equally talented defensive ends still on the board in the third round, Lewis selected USC's Frostee Rucker who had pleaded guilty to misdemeanor harassment in 2002. In the fifth round, the Bengals took linebacker A.J. Nicholson, who was suspended from Florida State days before the Orange Bowl for alleged sexual misconduct in a hotel room (charges were never filed). What had been an anomaly in 2005 became a trend.

In June, Nicholson was charged with burglary, grand theft and vandalism for allegedly stealing $1,700 in electronics from the apartment of a former college teammate. That same month, Henry was arrested twice more: a DUI (that was dropped) and for allegedly giving alcohol to minors. Also, Rucker was charged with two counts of vandalism and two counts of spousal battery (from an incident in 2005). In July, before the Bengals opened training camp, Thurman was suspended for the first four games of the year for, he says, skipping a league-mandated drug test during the off-season. In August, guard Eric Steinbach was arrested for boating under the influence, and he accepted a diversion program for dropped charges. (Then in September came Thurman's arrest and yearlong suspension.)

Now, with Henry having missed two games because of his suspension and both Rucker and Nicholson inactive most of the season, public pressure has forced Lewis to admit that his strategy does have on-field consequences. It's a rare flip for a coach who has held tight to his message. "I've realized that you can't fix everybody," Lewis says now. "Some people, they just don't want to be fixed. It's a fact of life. Sooner or later, these guys filter themselves out of here." Or, as Thurman says with a conciliatory tone, "the Bengals organization can tell people, 'Don't do this, don't do that.' But they can't control everyone in that locker room."

That said, Lewis has been more understanding than even the most lenient player's coach, and he has struck a chord with his team. It's a dangerous high-wire act, but players say they feel obligated to give their all for a coach so willing to put himself on the line. Says defensive end Bryan Robinson: "It's one of the things we love about the guy." And they show it. At a time of year when momentum means everything and character teams like the Chiefs and Panthers are fading, Cincy is streaking.

It's an outlaw attitude often reflected in the music Chad Johnson plays inside the Bengals' locker room on Friday afternoons. On one of those Fridays early in the season, after ignoring a request from the defensive line for Ludacris' latest tune, Johnson chose a classic sample from Grandmaster Flash ("Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge") and followed that with Gwen Stefani's "Hollaback Girl." When the thumping chorus of that song hit the overhead speakers, even Palmer couldn't help but bob his head and shout out the refrain that serves as the theme to the Bengals' bizarre season. "This s--- is bananas," Palmer sang, "... b-a-n-a-n-a-s."

David Fleming is a senior writer covering the NFL for ESPN The Magazine.

[agreen_112]

Man that is great. Did you read that tjack? That's one hell of a read. Looks like I've been pretty much right on the ball with some of my remarks. I'm so glad to know that I wasn't the only one supporting Henry, that the whole team was behind him through everything. This should confirm to some of you that what I've been saying makes sense.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Man that is great. Did you read that tjack? That's one hell of a read. Looks like I've been pretty much right on the ball with some of my remarks. I'm so glad to know that I wasn't the only one supporting Henry, that the whole team was behind him through everything. This should confirm to some of you that what I've been saying makes sense.

On the other hand, Odell now is basically a completely wasted pick.

[Spor_tees]

Man that is great. Did you read that tjack? That's one hell of a read. Looks like I've been pretty much right on the ball with some of my remarks. I'm so glad to know that I wasn't the only one supporting Henry, that the whole team was behind him through everything. This should confirm to some of you that what I've been saying makes sense.

Dude saying you have the right point from one ESPN article is about the same as some Pissburg Steeler fan bragging that they are right about the Bengals not making the play-offs because Shannon Sharpe says so. Just cause one idiot on a national scale says something that resembles your feelings and opinions doesn't make them right.

[HairOnFire]

On the other hand, Odell now is basically a completely wasted pick.

But as the article points out, Odell Thurman provided the Bengals with 1st round talent at a fraction of the risk and money. And the same is true of Chris Henry, a player who despite his problems has scored as many TD's as Chad Johnson. Plus, the article makes it clear that within the lockerroom the same players so often called out as bad character players by the media are actually considered good teammates. Most telling, the rare talent that those players have make them more important and more valued by their teammates than a player with medicocre talent and no rap sheet.

More? Two of the three teams said to have the most character issues, Bears and Chargers, just happen to be the two most successful teams in the NFL this season, and the remaining team, our own Bengals, remain firmly in the playoff hunt.

Last, one of the teams mentioned in the article as a high character team, the Carolina Panthers, are considered by most observers to be one of the most underachieving teams of this season...probably due to the hangover that has resulted from their mostly ignored steroid related mini-scandal.

[Kazkal]

ou can't win with 53 choirboys. This can be a grimy, nasty sport, and you need people who are a little grimy and nasty."

It's a dirty reality that teams like the Bengals and Chargers and Bears force us to acknowledge. That talent and power, not manners, win games. That football mirrors society, it doesn't transcend it. And that as much as we want to think of football as a secular form of religion, no one in this church -- not fans, owners or coaches -- values character more than conquest. If they did, the sign in the Bengals' locker room would read "Be a Super Good Person Today" instead of "Do Your Job."

That said, Lewis has been more understanding than even the most lenient player's coach, and he has struck a chord with his team. It's a dangerous high-wire act, but players say they feel obligated to give their all for a coach so willing to put himself on the line. Says defensive end Bryan Robinson: "It's one of the things we love about the guy." And they show it. At a time of year when momentum means everything and character teams like the Chiefs and Panthers are fading, Cincy is streaking.

Very good write up and I'd take henry over white any day of the week still

[HairOnFire]

That said, Lewis has been more understanding than even the most lenient player's coach, and he has struck a chord with his team. It's a dangerous high-wire act, but players say they feel obligated to give their all for a coach so willing to put himself on the line. Says defensive end Bryan Robinson: "It's one of the things we love about the guy." And they show it. At a time of year when momentum means everything and character teams like the Chiefs and Panthers are fading, Cincy is streaking.

Hey, remember when a few writers, commentators, and visiting trolls were claiming that Marvin had lost control of the team?

Funny stuff, good times, and great memories.

[HairOnFire]

Here's another one from the New York Times. There's not much in this one that we didn't know already, but it's interesting that more people are noticing that the teams with the most arrests also have the most wins.

Enjoy.

CINCINNATI, Dec. 14 — Situation. Marvin Lewis hates that word, as in “We have a situation,” a phrase Lewis, the coach of the Cincinnati Bengals, has heard in too many off-hours phone calls this year.

“That’s when I say, ‘Oh jeez, what did we do now?’ ” Lewis said.

The Bengals (8-5) have won four games in a row heading into Monday night’s game against the Indianapolis Colts, and they lead the wild-card race in the American Football Conference. But eight Bengals have been arrested since the end of last season, a number at least as well known in league circles as Ocho Cinco, Chad Johnson’s nickname.

The charges have not stuck in all the cases, but the stigma has. In Cincinnati, some fans call the Bengals the Mean Machine, an homage to the jail-yard team of convicts in the movie “The Longest Yard.” A video called “Marvin’s Reindeer” was posted on YouTube this week. It includes pictures of the eight, and a song to the tune of “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer” asks, “But who could have guessed, the latest Bengals arrest?”

(Way to go Ryan! )

Last Friday, when Lewis, in his fourth season with the Bengals, brought his team together at the end of practice, his instructions were simple: “Get your butts in bed.” Only a few hours later, cornerback Deltha O’Neal became the answer to the song’s question when he was arrested after he was stopped at a sobriety checkpoint.

Publicly, Lewis has mostly defended his players, offering up explanations and support. Privately, according to Bengals players, his frustration has been obvious. He has yelled at the transgressors in front of their teammates, hoping that the embarrassment will sway them. He has lectured that they are putting others in danger. And he has deactivated some of them.

But still it continues, the trickle of misbehavior picking up again after it was dormant for a while, just as the winning has in the last month after an uneven start.

“I don’t care if you’re awake at 12:30 a.m., but don’t be going through a checkpoint at 12:30,” Lewis said of O’Neal, who was deactivated for last Sunday’s game against Oakland. “He thought he was fine. But he wasn’t. Don’t think you’re fine, Mr. Macho. You’re not fine and you’re wrong.”

Lewis, one of the league’s most respected defensive coaches, has had plenty of opportunity to vent his aggravation and hone his message. All eight players were acquired on his watch, some of them coming to the Bengals with baggage.

Chris Henry, drafted in 2005, has been arrested four times, and he was suspended by the league for two games this season. He has pleaded guilty to two separate charges in two states: marijuana possession and carrying a concealed weapon.

This year, the Bengals drafted Frostee Rucker and A. J. Nicholson, who have since been arrested. Linebacker Odell Thurman, a second-round draft pick in 2005 whose draft stock dropped because of questions about his behavior, was suspended for the first four games of the season for violation of the league’s substance-abuse policy.

His suspension was lengthened to the entire season after a September arrest for driving under the influence. Lewis was so furious that he told Thurman to stay away from the team and took away his locker.

Lewis said he knew last January that Thurman was going to be suspended for at least part of the season, so Thurman was never part of his plans.

“Unfortunately, we couldn’t just jettison him,” he said. “Fortunately, no one was injured. We knew at some point he was going to totally flame out.”

In a way, the Bengals have been lucky. Of those in trouble, most were peripheral players.

“It’s not Carson doing this stuff,” said offensive tackle Willie Anderson, referring to quarterback Carson Palmer.

Indeed, the core of the Bengals — Palmer, Anderson and receivers Johnson and T. J. Houshmandzadeh — is unblemished. That has allowed the Bengals to be largely unbothered by the strife.

With Palmer healthy after off-season knee surgery, with some of the best receivers in the league, and with the defense feasting on recent opponents like Cleveland and Oakland, Cincinnati is one of the league’s hottest teams.

The tunnel vision of professional athletes often belies a locker-room brotherhood. The Chargers and the Bears have also had multiple player problems this season, and they share the league’s best record.

Lewis said the Bengals’ core group had encouraged him to deactivate players who got in trouble. Houshmandzadeh said the only time he thought about off-field issues was when he was asked a question about it.

Anderson said: “There is only so much you can do. People say, ‘Can’t the older guys talk to the younger guys?’ I can talk all day, but it’s like a parent talking to a kid. At some point, you’ve got to concentrate on football. If you don’t, everybody will say, ‘That’s the reason you lose.’ ”

While Lewis has been hailed as a miracle worker for steering what had been a laughable franchise toward championship dreams, the police blotter has blotted him, too. There are those around the league who wonder why Lewis has continued to take such significant personnel risks.

“Maybe Marvin was so concerned about getting good players that he wasn’t thinking about character,” the former Bengals quarterback Boomer Esiason said.

But Esiason said he was in no position to judge the current Bengals. He was on a Bengals team that had a running back, Stanley Wilson, who was found on the floor of his hotel bathroom in a cocaine-induced stupor before Super Bowl XXIII.

“What can he do, unless he starts cutting his players?” Esiason said.

That is usually not practical because of the salary cap. Lewis criticized the news media for suggesting that players be cut immediately or that teams eliminate from draft consideration anybody with trouble in his past.

Plenty of players reform themselves, Lewis said. Furthermore, he said, “You’d have very few guys left to draft.”

Lewis acknowledged that he was well aware that some of the players might be trouble when he took them on, but he bristled at the suggestion that he had traded character for victories.

“It’s not a roll of the dice,” he said. “It’s an investment that playing in the N.F.L. can help you, you will grow into a better person, or a responsible person because of the privilege to play here.”

Lewis insisted that his thinking on personnel was changing. He was tired of receiving phone calls from colleagues asking if he was O.K. He no longer wanted to make decisions about who should be inactive based not on practice performance or injury, but on a rap sheet.

And he has a boss to answer to — the team’s owner, Mike Brown, who on Monday got a call from Commissioner Roger Goodell offering the league’s assistance, a pointed indicator that Goodell wants to see a change. Lewis had a suggestion for how the commissioner could help: take over the burden and suspend more players.

“What the league can do is say, ‘You don’t play,’ ” Lewis said. “It would get rid of all the gray. You wouldn’t have the discrepancy of team to team. It would take it out of our hands. I think young guys coming out of college would understand that. It would nip it in the bud. He can help it. Just say, ‘Guys that do this, this is what happens.’ ”

Of course, the players union may not like that solution. But that is not Lewis’s problem. In the middle of a playoff run, he already has enough problems.

[HairOnFire]

Props to Old Schooler for finding this one in the Miami Herald and posting it on Go-Bengals. I especially loved the part where the writer claims the solution is obvious...suspend the players with pay until there's a verdict or the charges are dropped. Something tells me that this idea is mind numbingly stupid....and it's probably the speed of the criminal justice system that makes me think that way.

No matter, enjoy.

Bengals' players in need of tough love

By LEONARD SHAPIRO

badgerlen@hotmail.com

Every spring, the NFL conducts a mandatory rookie symposium for draft choices that is structured, in part, to help ease the transition from college football to the professional ranks. It includes a long session with an ensemble of actors performing a variety of real-life situational skits designed to impress upon the athletes the consequences of irresponsible off-field behavior.

Clearly, a large number of Cincinnati Bengals players haven't been paying much attention to the league's scared-straight tactics in recent years.

Over the last 12 months, eight Bengals have been arrested for a wide variety of offenses, some of them several times for different violations of the law. There have been five alcohol-related arrests, two for resisting arrest, one for vandalism and spousal battery, one for burglary and grand theft and one for concealed gun possession.

It's not quite to the point where Las Vegas oddsmakers will offer a wager on whether the Bengals' victory total will exceed their arrest total. But to team and league officials, this clearly is no laughing matter, nor are the five arrests this season of members of the San Diego Chargers, second in the league to the Bengals in the most disturbing stat of them all.

Earlier this week, Commissioner Roger Goodell said he had spoken to Bengals' team owner Mike Brown about the situation and offered the league's help in curbing the miscreant behavior. ''Obviously when you have incidents that don't reflect well on the NFL, you have to deal with that aggressively,'' Goodell told a group of reporters and editors with the Associated Press.

The solution seems easy enough. The Bengals have taken no disciplinary action on any of the alleged perpetrators, nor will they even comment on individual cases, citing a team policy of not saying anything until a case is adjudicated.

They'd be far better off of a tough-love approach, and that goes for every team in the league. If a player is arrested, he's suspended, with pay, from playing in games or using the team facility until there's a verdict or charges are dropped. You can show them the money their contract calls for, but there are still consequences -- no play, no practice, no entry -- for bad behavior.

Coach Marvin Lewis addressed the Bengals' sad situation last Monday and went into something of a defensive crouch.

''I don't care what they say nationally,'' Lewis told Cincinnati reporters. ``I don't think you guys [in the local media] attack me because you know what I stand for. Unfortunately, I can't hold [players] hands 24/7, but it is embarrassing.

``These things socially are not right. It doesn't matter what you do for a living or who you are. You've got to follow the rules and laws. . . . These players put themselves at risk as far as being in the league.''

But the Bengals also have put themselves at risk, according to one long-time general manager, by frequently drafting players with character issues.

Consider rookie linebacker A.J. Nicholson from Florida State. Once considered a potential first-round pick, Nicholson was dismissed from the Seminoles squad before the Orange Bowl last year because of alleged sexual misconduct in his hotel room. Still, the Bengals were happy to grab him in the fifth round, but not so pleased when he was arrested on June 3 for burglary and grand theft after he allegedly broke into the Tallahassee apartment of a former teammate and stole $1,700 worth of electronic equipment.

''It's a combination of ownership and Marvin taking chances on players some teams might not want,'' the GM said. ``They got away with it a few times, but it's really catching up to them.''

[derekshank]

There's too much reading to do in this thread. If I wanted to spend my whole day reading, I'd be watching the ticker on ESPNews.

Oh yeah... or reading a book or something along those lines.

[Pinkygen]

You guys missed the most disturbing part; Palmer singing along to Hollaback Girl!!!

Johnson chose a classic sample from Grandmaster Flash ("Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge") and followed that with Gwen Stefani's "Hollaback Girl." When the thumping chorus of that song hit the overhead speakers, even Palmer couldn't help but bob his head and shout out the refrain that serves as the theme to the Bengals' bizarre season. "This s--- is bananas," Palmer sang, "... b-a-n-a-n-a-s."

[HoosierCat]

But as the article points out, Odell Thurman provided the Bengals with 1st round talent at a fraction of the risk and money.

A fraction of the money? Certainly. But risk? Where's last year's DROY candidate LB now?

You can't build anything with pieces that last a single season.

As for Henry, you yourself pointed out how much we missed him during his team and league suspensions.

Really, I don't care about financial issues, it's the on-field stuff that bugs me. You can't build a team with guys who can't be counted on to be on the field. It's just that simple.

[HairOnFire]

A fraction of the money? Certainly. But risk? Where's last year's DROY candidate LB now?

You can't build anything with pieces that last a single season.

Armed with perfect hindsight that's an argument that anyone can make, but it's just as true that the player who was named DROY has his own character issues. Merriman was just suspended for four games, right? He's an admitted steroid user, or if you prefer...a cheater, who was drafted by a very successful team that has made a habit out of using high draft picks on KNOWN steroid users. So where's the media outrage? Where are the damning headlines? Granted, Merriman wasn't arrested for his act, but doesn't his choice of substance abuse have more to do with the NFL than Eric Steinbach's beer boating? Or Cheech Henry's drunken hotel parties with teenage hookers? Or AJ Nicholson's decision to break into an apartment to retrieve his own stereo equipment?

As for not being able to build anything with pieces that last a single season, well...it's the NFL and there are no guarantees that a strategy of drafting only altar boys would result in pieces that last any longer. In fact, by all accounts David Pollack is a person of very high character and was considered more talented and than Odell Thurman, yet you began calling Pollack a likely bust almost before he played his first down of pro ball.

Most telling though is the fact that at the very same time you were beginning to slag on Pollack last season you began to rave about the play of Odell Thurman....and you did this quite naturally because you didn't have the advantage of perfect hindsight.

I'm just saying....

[Kazkal]

I rather have players smoking pot then using steriods.

[agreen_112]

Man that is great. Did you read that tjack? That's one hell of a read. Looks like I've been pretty much right on the ball with some of my remarks. I'm so glad to know that I wasn't the only one supporting Henry, that the whole team was behind him through everything. This should confirm to some of you that what I've been saying makes sense.

Dude saying you have the right point from one ESPN article is about the same as some Pissburg Steeler fan bragging that they are right about the Bengals not making the play-offs because Shannon Sharpe says so. Just cause one idiot on a national scale says something that resembles your feelings and opinions doesn't make them right.

I'm not saying that I'm right because of what the writer said dodo, I'm saying that I was right all along because of what the f**king players on the team where quoted as saying. What's so hard to understand about that. You obviously haven't seen many of my posts. I've been backing Henry since day one and apperently so are the teamates, they always have. My other point, all along, was that in the NFL you need some grimy, street players that don't take no crap (TO, Henry, Houshmandzadeh...) and not 53 "chiorboys". It's good to see that I'm not the only one that thinks this way...

[HoosierCat]

A fraction of the money? Certainly. But risk? Where's last year's DROY candidate LB now?

You can't build anything with pieces that last a single season.

Armed with perfect hindsight that's an argument that anyone can make,

Doesn't have anything at all to do with hindsight. It's simply risk assessment. Character issues add another layer of risk to the usual ones, like injuries, and increase the likliehood a player will be unavailable. That's why teams pull these guys off their boards.

[TJJackson]

I LOVE that term - layers of risk - it's exactly what I have been expressing for years here and few seem to listen......in essence, you can draft the next coming of Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, and/or Reggie White in terms of ability, but if they cannot get onto the field due to injuries, suspensions, or both - then you're better off without them

Chris Perry is a prototypical type 1 - plenty of ability, but always injured

Odell Thurman is a prototypical type 2 - plenty of ability, but can't be trusted to keep himself out of trouble

I do believe I will steal that snippet, my good man.

[HoosierCat]

I LOVE that term - layers of risk - it's exactly what I have been expressing for years here and few seem to listen......in essence, you can draft the next coming of Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, and/or Reggie White in terms of ability, but if they cannot get onto the field due to injuries, suspensions, or both - then you're better off without them

Chris Perry is a prototypical type 1 - plenty of ability, but always injured

Odell Thurman is a prototypical type 2 - plenty of ability, but can't be trusted to keep himself out of trouble

I do believe I will steal that snippet, my good man.

All yours. Just to be clear, I dont think Perry, or for that matter Pollack, were risks coming out of college. Neither had a history of injuries, as far as I know, and that's another thing teams look at and often drop players on their boards for. But they do know that football is a violent sport and that some injuries are inevitable, though it's impossible to predict who will get hurt. Which is why it makes sense to minimize drafting guys who have character issues and whose actions might take them out of games. That's a risk factor you can control.

Is it a die-hard rule? I dont think so. But I think the time to look at relaxing it is when you have a unit all or mostly all built. Henry, I think, was an acceptable risk, since the offense has lots of weapons (at least in theory) and if that pick blows up, the damage is minimal. Odell, OTOH, was to be a key part of the team's defensive foundation going forward, and when one of your basic building blocks goes boom, you end up in trouble.

[agreen_112]

I LOVE that term - layers of risk - it's exactly what I have been expressing for years here and few seem to listen......in essence, you can draft the next coming of Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, and/or Reggie White in terms of ability, but if they cannot get onto the field due to injuries, suspensions, or both - then you're better off without them

Chris Perry is a prototypical type 1 - plenty of ability, but always injured

Odell Thurman is a prototypical type 2 - plenty of ability, but can't be trusted to keep himself out of trouble

I do believe I will steal that snippet, my good man.

All yours. Just to be clear, I dont think Perry, or for that matter Pollack, were risks coming out of college. Neither had a history of injuries, as far as I know, and that's another thing teams look at and often drop players on their boards for. But they do know that football is a violent sport and that some injuries are inevitable, though it's impossible to predict who will get hurt. Which is why it makes sense to minimize drafting guys who have character issues and whose actions might take them out of games. That's a risk factor you can control.

Is it a die-hard rule? I dont think so. But I think the time to look at relaxing it is when you have a unit all or mostly all built. Henry, I think, was an acceptable risk, since the offense has lots of weapons (at least in theory) and if that pick blows up, the damage is minimal. Odell, OTOH, was to be a key part of the team's defensive foundation going forward, and when one of your basic building blocks goes boom, you end up in trouble.

Yeah at first I really wanted to support Odell, but then after really thinking about what he did I became more and more pissed off. To think about what Palmer went through to get ready for this season and what Odell did to get suspended showed me that he didn't give a f**k. Would I take him back..... Of course. We signed him for a steal, he can add good depth to the team. But he's got a lot to make up for.

[HairOnFire]

A fraction of the money? Certainly. But risk? Where's last year's DROY candidate LB now?

You can't build anything with pieces that last a single season.

Armed with perfect hindsight that's an argument that anyone can make,

Doesn't have anything at all to do with hindsight. It's simply risk assessment. Character issues add another layer of risk to the usual ones, like injuries, and increase the likliehood a player will be unavailable. That's why teams pull these guys off their boards.

I'd say hindsight has a fairly large role to play in this debate. After all, how hard would it be for me to scroll back into the archives and find examples where you praise the play of Odell Thurman last season? He played a major role in the Bengals reaching the playoffs for the first time in forever, right? But even when armed with a negative risk assessment there probably isn't a smoking gun that predicted how rapidly Thurman fell from grace, right? No, you learn that type of thing only with hindsight, just like how you learn that players like Chris Perry and David Pollack aren't going to be able to help your team as much as Odell Thurman or Chris Henry have.

[HoosierCat]

But even when armed with a negative risk assessment there probably isn't a smoking gun that predicted how rapidly Thurman fell from grace, right?

No, there was no smoking gun that "predicted how rapidly" Thurman would blow up. But there was a smoking gun that predicted an increased risk of a blowout of some sort. Again, that might be acceptable when you're picking a No. 3 wideout on an already loaded offense. But not when you are looking to rebuild an entire unit.

[HairOnFire]

But even when armed with a negative risk assessment there probably isn't a smoking gun that predicted how rapidly Thurman fell from grace, right?

No, there was no smoking gun that "predicted how rapidly" Thurman would blow up. But there was a smoking gun that predicted an increased risk of a blowout of some sort. Again, that might be acceptable when you're picking a No. 3 wideout on an already loaded offense. But not when you are looking to rebuild an entire unit.

If it's an acceptable risk for a #3 wideout then it's an acceptable risk for a player who gives you Defensive Rookie of the Year production without a huge signing bonus or a large salary. And that's especially true if you feel you're coaching a playoff contending team despite having a defense that needs a total rebuild.

Any cautious rebuilding attempt is likely to result in a slower rebuild ending with lower overall potential. But if you take a few risks on players who have the upside of Odell Thurman the rebuilding effort could take less time and result in a new unit with vastly higher potential.

Thus, the calculated risk that Marvin took when he drafted Thurman, and despite some undisciplined rookie play the short-term results were spectacular enough that Lewis should be granted the benefit of the doubt. Thurman WAS the player he saw on film.

Sadly, armed with the perfect vision that hindsight provides Marvin's critics now take easy shots at his decision making....implying in hindsight that turning around the NFL's worst franchise was a task that was easier than it appeared or something that should have been attempted more cautiously.

In short, the critics who spend their time second guessing each misstep are asking...."What was the hurry? Why risk so much just to win football games? Don't you realize that slow and steady win the race?"

IMHO, those are strange questions to ask of any football coach, and that's especially true of one who is attempting to turn around a Cincinnati Bengal franchise that still can't attract impact free agents.

[HoosierCat]

Any cautious rebuilding attempt is likely to result in a slower rebuild ending with lower overall potential.

And any rash rebuilding program increases the likelihood of creating a "perpetual rebuild." Again, no hindsight required, those are just the facts up front. And yes, you're talking about a high risk/high reward strategy versus a slower but safer approach. The final overall potential isn't likely to vary much, it just takes a couple years lonnger to get there. Considering that, with hindsight now, we can look back and see four years of meager defensive improvements using the high-risk strategy, we can see there are no guarantees.

[HairOnFire]

And yes, you're talking about a high risk/high reward strategy versus a slower but safer approach. The final overall potential isn't likely to vary much, it just takes a couple years lonnger to get there. Considering that, with hindsight now, we can look back and see four years of meager defensive improvements using the high-risk strategy, we can see there are no guarantees.

The meager improvement of the defense isn't the result of four years of failed high risk strategy. It's the result of a franchise building program that first attempted to build the perfect offensive beast while giving the defense dribs and drabs of mostly mediocre support. Only after the offense was stacked with weapons at nearly every position was a concerted effort begun to provide the defense with highly drafted prospects, and even then a valuable luxury pick was used on a backup offensive role player like Chris Perry. Meanwhile, the defense was until very recently forced to make due with declining 3rd tier free agents and mid round draft picks.

Also of note, almost none of the Bengals young talent on defense has been locked up long term, a building strategy we've seen used at nearly every position on the offense. Also telling is the high probability that this season will almost certainly result in a further drain in young defensive talent due to FA losses.

Finally, not helping matters at all is the fact that one of the Bengals least criticized moves on the defensive side of the ball was the drafting of hich character/low risk David Pollack, a much needed pass rusher whose career might be over after playing just two defensive snaps this season. To be fair, his loss wouldn't be so damning if more assets had been previously devoted to the defensive side of the ball, but as we're so often told in Bengala...that ship has sailed. Some might even say that it's slipped beneath the waves.

Frankly, the defense has far too often performed like the afterthought it seems to be, and if the Bengals were tempted by the siren song of a risky quick fix then who could blame them?

[HoosierCat]

Frankly, the defense has far too often performed like the afterthought it seems to be, and if the Bengals were tempted by the siren song of a risky quick fix then who could blame them?

No one. I didn't say I didn't understand the high-risk strategy, just that I don't agree with it. Hopefully, it works out better with Ahmad Brooks than it did with Thurman.