Is this team set up for next year?

[Dawg BpG]

Neat! So what about the Jags and Panthers? You can't argue a three-example post if you've only one example to bring into question.

Note - Sorry JoePong... we didn't intend to derail your thread.

Read this book

That is my justification. The Jaguars and The Panthers were both set-up correctly, the Browns were set up like a hot dog stand...Fast as possbiel and ready to sell anything.

Basically the NFL knew we wanted a team..BAD, they set it up so they could make all of their money as fast as possible not caring that we did not have the REQUIRED allotted time to set up an expansion team.

It is a very long story, but if you read that book, you'll have a much better understanding of exaclty how Browns fan got screwed. Not that, that is an excuse for our bad draft picks, but the players don't pick themselves.

Back to the point, what about Arizona? How are they doing as an expansion team?

Oh ya...sorry joe

Also I apologize for my defyant tone, I do not mean to be a jerk.

[derekshank]

Read this book

That is my justification. The Jaguars and The Panthers were both set-up correctly, the Browns were set up like a hot dog stand...Fast as possbiel and ready to sell anything.

Basically the NFL knew we wanted a team..BAD, they set it up so they could make all of their money as fast as possible not caring that we did not have the REQUIRED allotted time to set up an expansion team.

It is a very long story, but if you read that book, you'll have a much better understanding of exaclty how Browns fan got screwed. Not that, that is an excuse for our bad draft picks, but the players don't pick themselves.

Okay.... let's assume I buy your story that the Browns were at every disadvantage that other expansion teams haven't had to endure (even though it is not true, because there was an expansion draft, which was foreign to the ealier days of expansion teams, and they were given the #1 draft pick in '99, something no expansion team prior to them had been given).

The Browns managed back to back not-so-awful seasons in '01 and '02 with 7-9 and 9-7 records. At that point they had built a team that was no longer a bottom-feeder. The expansion excuse is no longer valid. They had built a competitive team only 3 years into the expansion. The problem with the Browns was what followed. Since that time, they've gone 19-41. The expansion Houston Texans, founded in 2002, in that span have gone 18-42. Pretty comparable numbers... except the Browns were no longer the "expansion" team. And of course... at the end of last year announced yet another "rebuilding mode."

The turnaround in the NFL is so quick anymore. The Bengals went from 2-14 to 8-8 in one season. Likewise, the Browns turned it around from 3-13 to 7-9 only 3 years into their expansion. Only the Lions, Cardinals and Browns have been able to maintain their mediocrity in such a consistent way over the past 5 years (even the Texans had a 7-9 season).

The Browns are terrible. I don't know exactly why, because I'm not a fan of theirs... but having been a long-time fan of the Bengals - I can take a guess. They are incompetent. They make bad coaching hires, which result in bad draft picks and unwise use of free agency, resulting in year after year of bad records. The Bengals are out of their dark ages... so make fun of it all you want. You can laugh at our past... we'll laugh at your present.

P.S. I don't feel the need to apologise for the direction this thread has taken. There is no need for Bengal fans to look to next year, since we are expected to make the playoffs this year. The direction this thread has gone is actually been good for us... as it gives all of us Bengal fans an opportunity to look at things from the perspective of a Browns fan, and realize how lucky we really are.

[HoosierCat]

I have to agree with Derek that it's hard to accept the "badly set-up expansion club" argument lo these many moons later.

That said, while I haven't read the book Dawg references, it would certainly come as no surprise to me that the "new" Browns were set up first and foremost as a way of parting desperate Cleveland fans (and taxpayers) from their cash. In fact, I and others (most memorably Hair) argued that point way back in '99, when all too many Browns fans drank the delusional Kool-Aid that their massed angry outcry had somehow "forced" the NFL to come back to Northern Ohio. They saw a pile of money to be made, that's all, and if they bungled the return in their rush to cash in, who would be surprised.

However, I think the Brown's current problems can be summed up in two words: Tim Couch.

If there's one things that more than a decade wandering in the wilderness has taught Bengals fans, it is -- or should be -- that without a franchise guy under center you are unlikely to go anywhere youd like to be. Opinions are mixed on whether Couch really was that franchise guy or just got stuck in a horrible situation in Cleveland, but the bottom line is that the Browns didn't get that guy to build around. Just as Cincy tried, and failed, with Klingler and Smith.

Now, just like the Bengals did, the Browns are trying to fill this gaping hole with has-been vets and second-tier saviours. Dilfer wasn't the answer there any more than Scott Mitchell or Neil O'Donnell was the answer here. Charlie Frye? Well, I'm sure he and Scott Covington could find plenty of common ground. Now the flavor of the day is Derek Anderson, and who knows, maybe they struck gold. I doubt it, but maybe.

Bottom line is that if the Browns want to improve the first thing they have to do is stop repeating the Bengals' mistakes.

[BengalszoneBilly]

IMHO the team is set up for many years to come, both team and staff-wise. Of course a good draft (meaning staying away from reaching for Chris Perry type picks) wouldn't hurt either!

BTW...good thread topic JoePong!

[derekshank]

Well Hoosier... you make some very good points, but I now regret where this thread has landed us. In my attempt to hurt the feelings of a Browns fan that came here looking for trouble, I've caused a chain reaction of a long and hard talk about why the Browns continue to struggle.

Frankly, I don't care why the Browns struggle. I'm much more intersted in talking about the Bengals finishing the season strong, and making a playoff run.

P.S. If there is one team in the AFC North that I wouldn't mind seeing turn it around a bit, it would be the Browns. The Steelers and Ravens are the scum of the earth. While I hate the Browns... at least they are Ohioans.

[rudi32]

However, I think the Brown's current problems can be summed up in two words: Tim Couch.

If there's one things that more than a decade wandering in the wilderness has taught Bengals fans, it is -- or should be -- that without a franchise guy under center you are unlikely to go anywhere youd like to be. Opinions are mixed on whether Couch really was that franchise guy or just got stuck in a horrible situation in Cleveland, but the bottom line is that the Browns didn't get that guy to build around. Just as Cincy tried, and failed, with Klingler and Smith.

Now, just like the Bengals did, the Browns are trying to fill this gaping hole with has-been vets and second-tier saviours. Dilfer wasn't the answer there any more than Scott Mitchell or Neil O'Donnell was the answer here. Charlie Frye? Well, I'm sure he and Scott Covington could find plenty of common ground. Now the flavor of the day is Derek Anderson, and who knows, maybe they struck gold. I doubt it, but maybe.

Bottom line is that if the Browns want to improve the first thing they have to do is stop repeating the Bengals' mistakes.

I disagree. Tim Couch never had a chance behind the horrific offensive lines they put in front of him. Same could be said for Klingler and Smith. I am not saying that any of these guys would have been world-beaters behind a great line. However, it all does start up front and that is where the Browns (and the 90s Bengals) have failed miserably. Once you have a solid line in place, that is when you go looking for the franchise QB.

[HoosierCat]

Frankly, I don't care why the Browns struggle. I'm much more intersted in talking about the Bengals finishing the season strong, and making a playoff run.

Same here. But, to the original point of the thread, I think there's a lesson for the Bengals front office in the Browns' continuing struggles. And that is the old saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results being a functional defintion of insanity.

Just like we did with retread after retread at QB, the Browns are doing the same thing. Didn't work here, won't work there. And there are still some things that the Bengals continue to do, over and over again, despite the fact they never work.

Are we set up for next year? Not, I would argue, on the defensive line. The Bengals continue their habit, going back to pre-Marvin days, of bringing in aging vets to man the DE and DT spots, while ignoring them until day day 2 of the draft (Justin Smith and Frostee Rucker being the rare exceptions). The aging vet strategy works if it's a stopgap, a way to hold down a position for a year or two while you bring a youngster along. Trouble is that said youngster never seems to get drafted. And thus our defense never seems to improve, a fact remarked upon around here a lot recently.

I disagree. Tim Couch never had a chance behind the horrific offensive lines they put in front of him.

Probably not, but that isn't the point. Which is why I said:

Opinions are mixed on whether Couch really was that franchise guy or just got stuck in a horrible situation in Cleveland, but the bottom line is that the Browns didn't get that guy to build around.

Why Couch failed is secondary; the fact that he did, for whatever reason, tossed the reborn Browns into the same maelstrom the Bengals were in for years, and they are the same mistakes in response.

[duus]

Well Hoosier... you make some very good points, but I now regret where this thread has landed us. In my attempt to hurt the feelings of a Browns fan that came here looking for trouble, I've caused a chain reaction of a long and hard talk about why the Browns continue to struggle.

Frankly, I don't care why the Browns struggle. I'm much more intersted in talking about the Bengals finishing the season strong, and making a playoff run.

P.S. If there is one team in the AFC North that I wouldn't mind seeing turn it around a bit, it would be the Browns. The Steelers and Ravens are the scum of the earth. While I hate the Browns... at least they are Ohioans.

Agree. I grew up a Bengals fans in the 80s, and knew to absolutely hate Cleveland and respect Pissburgh. Since then, having obviously lived near Cincy, I have also lived near Cleveland, and in Pissburgh. Visited Baltimore many times. Oddly enough, as an adult, I can say that of the 3 other cities, Cleveland is the one I enjoyed my stay in the most. I hear it used to be awful, but my experience was not bad at all (sometimes that still pains me to say). Everyone knows how I feel about Pissburgh, and it is all founded on direct interaction with a bunch of obnoxious, arrogant punks. In fact, in Pissburgh I have met 3 Browns fans. I would consider them all friends. We have great conversations, and currently share a deep hatred for everything Pissburgh. In fact, just Monday night I had a buddy run into me and tapped me on the shoulder and congratulated me on the thumping my team handed his Browns. He then followed that up by telling me to watch this Thursday as the Browns surprise the '06 version of the Steelers.

Anyway, the point is that I agree that of the other 3 AFC North teams, the Browns fans are those that I see as 'football fans'. I think winning has completely ruined the possibility of the 'other guys' in being ever normal fans again. They can't just watch a game. Heck, very few of them even watch games beyond their own team. They don't know football. And once their teams start losing, they won't even know their own team. They'll fade away like the bandwagon fans they are. We'll still be here. I'll still be here. Always a fan. Always a Bengals fan.

[Tasher]

Since this thread has devolved to SMACK can we please have it moved to the appropriate forum, so unsuspecting folks thinking it might have some interesting and THOUGHT provoking CONTENT don't get trapped reading it for three hours just to figure out that it is SMACK?

Thank you that is all.

Oh, and yes, we are pretty well setup for the next several years. "In Marvin We Trust!"

When in doubt, please refer to my sig line!

[JoePong]

The difference between Bengals "next year" threads and browns "next year" threads is this: Bengals fans are still excited about the possibilities of this season and also know that the future is promising so they get excited talking about the future as well as the present. The browns fans know they have no hope for this year-their season is over- so they have to "wait 'til next year" yet again and hope they can somehow get on the right track.

Totally different.

[Dawg BpG]

I have to agree with Derek that it's hard to accept the "badly set-up expansion club" argument lo these many moons later.

That said, while I haven't read the book Dawg references, it would certainly come as no surprise to me that the "new" Browns were set up first and foremost as a way of parting desperate Cleveland fans (and taxpayers) from their cash. In fact, I and others (most memorably Hair) argued that point way back in '99, when all too many Browns fans drank the delusional Kool-Aid that their massed angry outcry had somehow "forced" the NFL to come back to Northern Ohio. They saw a pile of money to be made, that's all, and if they bungled the return in their rush to cash in, who would be surprised.

However, I think the Brown's current problems can be summed up in two words: Tim Couch.

If there's one things that more than a decade wandering in the wilderness has taught Bengals fans, it is -- or should be -- that without a franchise guy under center you are unlikely to go anywhere youd like to be. Opinions are mixed on whether Couch really was that franchise guy or just got stuck in a horrible situation in Cleveland, but the bottom line is that the Browns didn't get that guy to build around. Just as Cincy tried, and failed, with Klingler and Smith.

Now, just like the Bengals did, the Browns are trying to fill this gaping hole with has-been vets and second-tier saviours. Dilfer wasn't the answer there any more than Scott Mitchell or Neil O'Donnell was the answer here. Charlie Frye? Well, I'm sure he and Scott Covington could find plenty of common ground. Now the flavor of the day is Derek Anderson, and who knows, maybe they struck gold. I doubt it, but maybe.

Bottom line is that if the Browns want to improve the first thing they have to do is stop repeating the Bengals' mistakes.

This guy get's it. It's not that we didn't have competetive teams (though I do not see 7-9 and 9-7 as competetive at all), we were set up terrbily poor. He hit the nail on the head, Browns fans were drinking the Kool-aid, and were blinded to the fact that, Carmen Policy had never run a team before, Dwight Clark was an absolute moron, Chris Palmer was a quarterbacks coach turned into a head coach which was basically to "Mentor" Tim Couch which was a joke.

The Browns fans were content with just having a team. The NFL knew that, and they encouraged it, because they knew that we had gotten the shaft. Read the book, and you'll understand. Judging by some of your comments, NOT the guy I quoted, there isn't much reading other than sports articles around here.

[derekshank]

Judging by some of your comments, NOT the guy I quoted, there isn't much reading other than sports articles around here.

Interesting comment, coming from a Browns fan wasting his time on another fan bases site. So what kind of reading have you been doing (other than the aforementioned book detailing the Browns storied mediocrity)?

This is a site I visit in my down time because it is entertaining to me... and being a huge Bengals/football fan, it usually doesn't end up me needing to rationalize why I haven't been doing other profitable things such as reading books that don't deal with football. But, I'll play... I read a book last week by K. N. Chaudhuri, entitled Trade and Civilization in the Indian Ocean: An Economic History From the Rise of Islam to 1750

Now that I've mentioned it, I can't figure out why I haven't talked about it until now. I mean... it has so much to do with the topic at hand. But you're right. Lets get into a debate about who reads more and has a better education.

P.S. Keep on making fun of the Bengals. Coming from a Browns fan, I know it is all centered around jealousy, so it is actually is a bright part of my day. Don't feel too bad though. We know what you're going through... but don't think for a second we have sympathy. It is clear that any fan that so willingly admits his team sucks, but still goes around making fun of other more successful franchises doesn't deserve sympathy.