The Worst Position Group

[BengalChamps]

IMO its the LB's. They need help bad. Pollack and Odell may never play again. Simmons may not play for the Bengals next year. Miller and Landon, bless their hearts, are giving it the ole college try.( emphasis on college) Brooks is very young and sometimes lost. Nicholson is hurt and only a 5flat 40 time when uninjured.

If only Tab Perry was healthy, we could give him a try at LB.

Seriously though, we need a HUGE leading Force at MLB. What a difference a guy like Urlacher, RayLewis, Seau would be for us. Looks like we may be in position to draft one.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

IMO its the LB's. They need help bad. Pollack and Odell may never play again. Simmons may not play for the Bengals next year. Miller and Landon, bless their hearts, are giving it the ole college try.( emphasis on college) Brooks is very young and sometimes lost. Nicholson is hurt and only a 5flat 40 time when uninjured.

If only Tab Perry was healthy, we could give him a try at LB.

Seriously though, we need a HUGE leading Force at MLB. What a difference a guy like Urlacher, RayLewis, Seau would be for us. Looks like we may be in position to draft one.

There's no way Nicholson is a 5 second 40 when healthy. I could limp a 5 second 40. He's gotta be 4.7 anyway, right?

I know what you mean though, our LBs went from "Damn, we're stacked!" to "Holy crap, we're SCREWED!" in about 3 weeks.

[CPalmer9]

would seriously want jr seau...hes old enough to be my grandpa

[BengalByTheBay]

In a group where you're only playing 1 (maybe) starter, what do you really expect? Last year it was safety, right? Both our starters were out most of the season. It's unrealistic to expect the LB's to go 2 and 3 players deep and still be a strength of the team. I think Brooks is playing as well as could be expected given his level of development and supplemental draft status -- he will be a good (maybe dominant eventually) LB if he doesn't get into off-field trouble. Simmons being out has hurt us in my view. Miller is decent depth, but matches up poorly as a 3-down player. Jeanty has played well. I think it's a surprise that this unit has held together as well as it has. To my view, there isn't a defensive spot that hasn't not had problems tackling and that's the bugaboo that continues to haunt us the most 3 1/2 years into Marvin's tenure.

[CBin2k7]

Why narrow it down to the LB's. The whole defense is equally awful. No pressure, can't tackle, don't fill gaps, terrible blitzing, safeties getting owned by RB's. Very consistent awful performance across the board.

[HairOnFire]

I know what you mean though, our LBs went from "Damn, we're stacked!" to "Holy crap, we're SCREWED!" in about 3 weeks.

Pretty much the story of the season.

Some teams can remain competitive if their injuries are spread out across the roster, but the Bengals plans have been shattered by too many injuries to two units, the O-line and the LB corp. You might even add the early bloodletting at WR, but those issues were able to be corrected over the short term. By comparison, it's taken the better part of two months for the Bengals to correct most of their offensive line problems, and the running and passing games suffered as result. It's gotten better of late, but the bleeding at LB continues. Worse, if the Bengals don't get Brian Simmons back fairly quickly I think their coverage problems on 3rd down will continue the rest of the season, and perhaps longer.

[schweinhart]

Seriously though, we need a HUGE leading Force at MLB. What a difference a guy like Urlacher, RayLewis, Seau would be for us. Looks like we may be in position to draft one.

Would be great if there was such a force in the upcoming draft. Don't look like there is unless maybe Lawrence Timmons enters early. Some may believe Patrick Willis is but I'm not so sure.

But there is a solid class of late 1st round/2nd round backers. Earl Everett would be at the top of my list. But I think they can pick from some good ones in the 2nd like Desmond Bishop or Ameer Ismail or in the 4th like Quinton Culberson or Justin Warren.

Given the likely loss of Justin Smith at RDE, the age and final contract year in 2007 of LDE Bryan Robinson and my doubts that Frostee the Muthafrucker will amount to hill of beans, I'd say DE ought to top the list but CB or a safety who can play slot in the nickel should also get looked at high....And a case can definitely be made for DT.

Sunday's melee has put the focus square on defense again....Sounds real familiar like 2004 and the Bengals ended up drafting a RB in the 1st, not that they didn't need a RB out of that draft but the draft was loaded with quality DTs and DEs and the Bengals didn't take any until the 4th -- Jumpy Jr. and Mathias Askew. Did roll with a couple LBs in the 3rd though with Landon and Caleb and of course a couple DBs in the 2nd in Madieu and Keiwan.

[CBin2k7]

Seriously though, we need a HUGE leading Force at MLB. What a difference a guy like Urlacher, RayLewis, Seau would be for us. Looks like we may be in position to draft one.

Would be great if there was such a force in the upcoming draft. Don't look like there is unless maybe Lawrence Timmons enters early. Some may believe Patrick Willis is but I'm not so sure.

But there is a solid class of late 1st round/2nd round backers. Earl Everett would be at the top of my list. But I think they can pick from some good ones in the 2nd like Desmond Bishop or Ameer Ismail or in the 4th like Quinton Culberson or Justin Warren.

Given the likely loss of Justin Smith at RDE, the age and final contract year in 2007 of LDE Bryan Robinson and my doubts that Frostee the Muthafrucker will amount to hill of beans, I'd say DE ought to top the list but CB or a safety who can play slot in the nickel should also get looked at high....And a case can definitely be made for DT.

Sunday's melee has put the focus square on defense again....Sounds real familiar like 2004 and the Bengals ended up drafting a RB in the 1st, not that they didn't need a RB out of that draft but the draft was loaded with quality DTs and DEs and the Bengals didn't take any until the 4th -- Jumpy Jr. and Mathias Askew. Did roll with a couple LBs in the 3rd though with Landon and Caleb and of course a couple DBs in the 2nd in Madieu and Keiwan.

Schweinhart, do you think that Marvin and Co. tend to draft for depth instead of drafting possible starters or positional impact. Also do you think the defense would play a lot better if coached that way? I see the talent, I really do, but I don't see unit cohesion, or a direct sense of what they are trying to accomplish on the defensive side of the ball. With the good defenses you know they have a sound philosphy,

Balt-mulitple looks, confuses QB's, pressure, man to man

SD-3-4, pressure from the OLB's, strong anchored d-line focused to stop run

CHI- cover 2, fast d-line, able to get pressure on QB with no blitzing, ball hawking secondary, very disciplined.

JAX- alot of man, strong d-tackles, very stout up the middle

I could go on and on, but what is the Bengals defensive philosphy?

[BengalPimp]

Why narrow it down to the LB's. The whole defense is equally awful. No pressure, can't tackle, don't fill gaps, terrible blitzing, safeties getting owned by RB's. Very consistent awful performance across the board.

You need to re-phraze that......Our safties are not getting owned by RB's....Madeiu and KK are...but I have yet to see Dexter Jackson get owned by ANYBODY, as he is BAR-NONE THE BEST TACKLER ON THAT DEFENSE

[schweinhart]

Schweinhart, do you think that Marvin and Co. tend to draft for depth instead of drafting possible starters or positional impact. Also do you think the defense would play a lot better if coached that way? I see the talent, I really do, but I don't see unit cohesion, or a direct sense of what they are trying to accomplish on the defensive side of the ball. With the good defenses you know they have a sound philosphy,

Balt-mulitple looks, confuses QB's, pressure, man to man

SD-3-4, pressure from the OLB's, strong anchored d-line focused to stop run

CHI- cover 2, fast d-line, able to get pressure on QB with no blitzing, ball hawking secondary, very disciplined.

JAX- alot of man, strong d-tackles, very stout up the middle

I could go on and on, but what is the Bengals defensive philosphy?

The Bengals defensive philosophy continues to evolve. It was at first more like the Bears approach under Frazier but there's a big difference between John Thorton and Tommie Harris, Kevin Hardy and Brian Urlacher...etc. Plus they did blitz a lot still. That switch by Lovie in Chicago had a lot to do with Bryan Robinson getting kicked to the curb.

Then under Brez came a shift to stop stunting the D-linemen every play, rush mostly only 4 and rely on zone coverage jumps for turnovers. We saw Thornton switch from RDT to LDT, B-Rob go to RDT, Jumpy Jr. get beefed up and him and Justin flip end sides. But this year, the Bengals definitely prioritized strengthening the D-line interior to jam the LOS vs. the run. Part of the reason to kick B-Rob outside and move Justin back to RDE. Add Big Sam and Peko and they start moving toward the Jags philosophy of stout interior. Plus they have relied on their secondary more in man coverage this year. They still zone and bracket though and one of the more curious things for me has been watching the ends drop back into coverage in zone blitzes a lot more this year. 1st it was Geathers dropping back up to 15 yards and now we see Justin doing it (on the ball he almost picked where he was in coverage with Tory James on a WR).

Draftwise, they've prioritized speed and coverage ability in LBs over strength at the point of attack until maybe they've started to switch from that with Brooks who alone gives them some interesting options to shift in and out of base D's as he develops. Their picks in the secondary have been mostly dictated by abilitiy in man coverage, except for Keiwan who was no question a zone corner at best to begin with and using him in the slot as a nickel was a bust.

But on the whole I'd say the Bengals defensive philosophy has been primarily to improve the team through free agency and trade with the exception of LB where they have really tried to build a corps through the draft but got Odumbed and Pollacked instead. Philosophy personnel wise. Scheme wise I'm not sure they really know right now so I'd just say it's still evolving.

[CBin2k7]

The Bengals defensive philosophy continues to evolve. It was at first more like the Bears approach under Frazier but there's a big difference between John Thorton and Tommie Harris, Kevin Hardy and Brian Urlacher...etc. Plus they did blitz a lot still. That switch by Lovie in Chicago had a lot to do with Bryan Robinson getting kicked to the curb.

Then under Brez came a shift to stop stunting the D-linemen every play, rush mostly only 4 and rely on zone coverage jumps for turnovers. We saw Thornton switch from RDT to LDT, B-Rob go to RDT, Jumpy Jr. get beefed up and him and Justin flip end sides. But this year, the Bengals definitely prioritized strengthening the D-line interior to jam the LOS vs. the run. Part of the reason to kick B-Rob outside and move Justin back to RDE. Add Big Sam and Peko and they start moving toward the Jags philosophy of stout interior. Plus they have relied on their secondary more in man coverage this year. They still zone and bracket though and one of the more curious things for me has been watching the ends drop back into coverage in zone blitzes a lot more this year. 1st it was Geathers dropping back up to 15 yards and now we see Justin doing it (on the ball he almost picked where he was in coverage with Tory James on a WR).

Draftwise, they've prioritized speed and coverage ability in LBs over strength at the point of attack until maybe they've started to switch from that with Brooks who alone gives them some interesting options to shift in and out of base D's as he develops. Their picks in the secondary have been mostly dictated by abilitiy in man coverage, except for Keiwan who was no question a zone corner at best to begin with and using him in the slot as a nickel was a bust.

But on the whole I'd say the Bengals defensive philosophy has been primarily to improve the team through free agency and trade with the exception of LB where they have really tried to build a corps through the draft but got Odumbed and Pollacked instead. Philosophy personnel wise. Scheme wise I'm not sure they really know right now so I'd just say it's still evolving.

[HairOnFire]

They still zone and bracket though and one of the more curious things for me has been watching the ends drop back into coverage in zone blitzes a lot more this year. 1st it was Geathers dropping back up to 15 yards and now we see Justin doing it (on the ball he almost picked where he was in coverage with Tory James on a WR).

This isn't a recent change as they've been dropping their DE's into coverage far more than most teams attempt to do for as long as Marvin has been here. For example, I once broke down each defensive snap over a five game period during Marvin's first year, and found that Justin Smith was dropped into pass coverage an average of 7-8 snaps per game, and he actually lined up as an OLB several more times each game. From that position he rarely blitzed, a fact that surprised me quite a bit. Instead, he mostly assumed "under" pass coverage duty on TE's and WR's and IMHO he did it well. At the opposite end position Duane Clemons was dropped into coverage about half much each game, but quickly proved incapable of covering backs or TE's. In fact, his blown coverages were the single greatest factor that resulted in the late game defensive meltdown in a loss to the Buffalo Bills.

Dropping DE's into pass coverage continued to be a regular staple of defensive line play under Leslie Frazier, who believed strongly that you can only get consistent pass pressure by stunting and blitzing. Misdirection was the name of the game then, and while the results were mixed one thing occured that couldn't be argued. That being, if you're dropping your DE's into pass coverage that often they're going to have fewer chances to rush the passer.

Fast forward to todays Bengal scheme and we suddenly have Bres resorting to many of the same tricks that Frazier attempted, probably due to the massive influx of injuries suffered by the Bengal LB corp. Unlike in the opening weeks of the season we no longer have Bengal defensive lineman talking about how much they like playing straight up football with almost no stunting or blitzing. Instead, we have a return of the mush rush, dropping DE's into pass coverage, and massive blitzing from LB's and secondary players that too often results in big plays being surrendered.

In short, the Bengals are back to using smoke and mirrors.

[Kazkal]

If Odell or pollack never play again I say we go after briggs

[CBin2k7]

They still zone and bracket though and one of the more curious things for me has been watching the ends drop back into coverage in zone blitzes a lot more this year. 1st it was Geathers dropping back up to 15 yards and now we see Justin doing it (on the ball he almost picked where he was in coverage with Tory James on a WR).

This isn't a recent change as they've been dropping their DE's into coverage far more than most teams attempt to do for as long as Marvin has been here. For example, I once broke down each defensive snap over a five game period during Marvin's first year, and found that Justin Smith was dropped into pass coverage an average of 7-8 snaps per game, and he actually lined up as an OLB several more times each game. From that position he rarely blitzed, a fact that surprised me quite a bit. Instead, he mostly assumed "under" pass coverage duty on TE's and WR's and IMHO he did it well. At the opposite end position Duane Clemons was dropped into coverage about half much each game, but quickly proved incapable of covering backs or TE's. In fact, his blown coverages were the single greatest factor that resulted in the late game defensive meltdown in a loss to the Buffalo Bills.

Dropping DE's into pass coverage continued to be a regular staple of defensive line play under Leslie Frazier, who believed strongly that you can only get consistent pass pressure by stunting and blitzing. Misdirection was the name of the game then, and while the results were mixed one thing occured that couldn't be argued. That being, if you're dropping your DE's into pass coverage that often they're going to have fewer chances to rush the passer.

Fast forward to todays Bengal scheme and we suddenly have Bres resorting to many of the same tricks that Frazier attempted, probably due to the massive influx of injuries suffered by the Bengal LB corp. Unlike in the opening weeks of the season we no longer have Bengal defensive lineman talking about how much they like playing straight up football with almost no stunting or blitzing. Instead, we have a return of the mush rush, dropping DE's into pass coverage, and massive blitzing from LB's and secondary players that too often results in big plays being surrendered.

In short, the Bengals are back to using smoke and mirrors.

Interesting, I did not know that the Bengals were dropping their DE's into coverage that much. Thanks for the info.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Marvin Lewis has been officially "Bungalized." The defense just plain sucks, injury excuses or not.

He can go see Sam Wyche, Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet and Dick Legump for advice/therapy maybe. Or maybe he can stick a foot up Mike Brown's a$$ and let him do what he needs to in order to build the team necessary in order to win. But that won't happen.

[HairOnFire]

Marvin Lewis has been officially "Bungalized." The defense just plain sucks, injury excuses or not.

He can go see Sam Wyche, Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet and Dick Legump for advice/therapy maybe. Or maybe he can stick a foot up Mike Brown's a$$ and let him do what he needs to in order to build the team necessary in order to win. But that won't happen.

Check your diaper. (I'm betting it's full.)

[HoosierCat]

Marvin Lewis has been officially "Bungalized." The defense just plain sucks, injury excuses or not.

He can go see Sam Wyche, Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet and Dick Legump for advice/therapy maybe. Or maybe he can stick a foot up Mike Brown's a$$ and let him do what he needs to in order to build the team necessary in order to win. But that won't happen.

Check your diaper. (I'm betting it's full.)

Aw, cmon, Hair! Clearly Shula is just responding to my invitation that we commence with the annual Mikey-bashing! Whay are we below .500? Obviously because of that penny-pinching skinflint in the front office! If we had an indoor pracrice bubble, if Mikey would have spent big bucks on Warren Sapp instead of going to bed, hell, if he'd just given Marvin enough personnel power to move Tab Perry to his natural postion at safety, this disaster would never have occured!

Friends! Cincinnatians! Bengals fans! Get out your pitchforks and light your torches! We march on PBS tonight!

[schweinhart]

They still zone and bracket though and one of the more curious things for me has been watching the ends drop back into coverage in zone blitzes a lot more this year. 1st it was Geathers dropping back up to 15 yards and now we see Justin doing it (on the ball he almost picked where he was in coverage with Tory James on a WR).

This isn't a recent change as they've been dropping their DE's into coverage far more than most teams attempt to do for as long as Marvin has been here. For example, I once broke down each defensive snap over a five game period during Marvin's first year, and found that Justin Smith was dropped into pass coverage an average of 7-8 snaps per game, and he actually lined up as an OLB several more times each game. From that position he rarely blitzed, a fact that surprised me quite a bit. Instead, he mostly assumed "under" pass coverage duty on TE's and WR's and IMHO he did it well.

Justin's probably getting back up to dropping back that much again. And Geathers easily was earlier in the season. But I don't remember these guys dropping back with the depth that they're doing now or doing anything other that zoning in short area instead of like what Justin did when he was trailing Todd Heap 20 yards downfield. I don't see anuything other than mismatches with these tactics when the blitzing it opens up has zero impact. Maybe it's time to just 4-man rush all game and play quarters in the secondary with Joseph running around in the slot?