FA Period Not Near As Bad As Most Think...

[Bengals44]

OK, so most everyone has shown some disgust w/ our FA period and I admit it hasn't necessarily been stellar, but we filled some needs w/ players that can fit w/in our system w/out sacrificing serious funds in the future...

Coming into the FA season we had holes at C, OG, MLB, DT, DB and both S slots... You must consider that unrestricted FA's are really no longer Bengals (Braham, Goff, Beckett, Roman) in the grand scheme of things... So that lines up as 7 total holes on our team we must react too!!

Results:

C - Braham re-signed

OG - Bobby Williams signed (would've preferred to re-sign Goff)

MLB - Nate Webster

DT - zilch

DB - zilch

S - Beckett re-signed

S - Kim Herring

NOTE: Do not discount how Patrick Robinson will help us - he will be a 3 or 4 rec. at best, but provides much needed speed and gives us our first legitimate KR since Tremain Mack...

So we have filled 5 of our 7 FA holes - that's 71% ... Granted the names above do not represent perennial pro-bowlers, but this is the same plan New England has had such success w/ and Marvin has hinted at using himself (consider his statement that he will not overpay)... Braham has already shown his value, while Beckett showed marked improvement in the second half of the season last year... Marvin had Herring before and knows exactly what he is getting there, while Webster seems to fit perfectly into the Marvin profile of speed and aggressiveness... The only one I do not feel all that confident in is Bobby Williams since I have heard he is not a very good pass-blocker, but we all know Paul Alexander can damn well teach...

So we enter the draft w/ two glaring holes - DT and DB... Maybe we sign Gardener (a bit of a punk) or someone like Hand (as mentioned in another post), to add depth even before we pick... Even if we sign no one else (unlikely), we are not in a bad position...

You have to figure that Dillion gets traded for at least a 3rd rd. pick, giving us 4 picks that can make a contribution next year... The good thing about this years draft is that there is depth at the two positions we desperately need (DT and DB)... In a best-case scenario (you have to let the draft somewhat fall to you and not pick strictly out of need), we get a DT, DB, a top-2 C and maybe an OG... We can get a pretty good RB in the 4th or 5th rd. to back up Rudi - solid RB's are a dime a dozen (the franchise guys are a little more difficult)...

So in the end Marvin's plan is in effect - Do not cost your team $$-wise for the future, get players that fit w/ in the system you run and establish depth and special teams... I will admit that getting a "name" player may have looked better psychologically, but I personally prefer younger players who "fit the system"... As we win more and more, those "bigger" names will come much easier... The key being that we must continue to show improvement and Marvin has shown me nothing but to expect that!!

[Reimersfan88]

It's Johnson, not Robinson.

[Bengals44]

True - sometimes I get in a hurry, but you get my point I hope...

[jditty47]

no big improvements on defense that ranked 25th in the league last year. We got nothing that we needed really in a DT or a CB. So far in FA its still a D+ or a flat D. If we trade Dillon and get a 3rd and a conditional next year, then if we can get a CB/DT in 1 and then the other in 2, and then get a OL and another DT in 3 I will raise our offseason grade to a C+. But i dont see, even with a good draft getting a higher rating than that. We can mb get a draft grade of a A- added with a D = C+ mb a B-. If anyone is following me, they must be drinkin too!!

[Bengals44]

jditty - you have to consider what we faced coming into the off-season and see that we filled 5 of 7 holes... It seems that everyone is so caught up in getting a big name, that reality has escaped them... You simply cannot overpay for players, when is the last time you have seen New England put out rediculous bucks for someone...? You must build depth w/ overall quality and w/out sacrificing a part of your future... I think too many people here are waaaay too impatient and will not be satisfied until we sign a big name player (even if he is 33 years old or so)...

[redsfan2]

The main thing that bothered me about the free agent period this year is the seeming lack of a plan. Last year Lewis seemed to target, recruit , and sign certain players that he wanted for the team. Whether you agree with his choices or not, you got the sense that he was persuing certain players for certain reasons. He had a course of action and stuck to it. Did pretty much the same thing in the draft.

That deciseiveness seems to be lacking this year. This time it seemed like he / or the team was constantly reacting to the actions of others as opposed to initiating the action and being proactive. It made them seem slow to react, and by the thime they did it was too late. Hope they have a better draft ...... or at least more of a plan anyway.

[jditty47]

bingo redsfan2 bingf*ckin-o.

and bengals44, all we did was fill holes, did we fill them with better players than last year? I dont think any position was filled with a better player so far.

[kevnz]

That deciseiveness seems to be lacking this year. This time it seemed like he / or the team was constantly reacting to the actions of others as opposed to initiating the action and being proactive. It made them seem slow to react, and by the thime they did it was too late. Hope they have a better draft ...... or at least more of a plan anyway.

Part of the problem was an unwllingness to overpay for any FA's(rightly so at that) But, There is still a perception that Cincinnati isn't the place to play...I've read that we offered Taylor and Vincent either equal or better money and they still said no...That kinda threw a monkey wrench into things, plus being tight against the cap didn't help....

I know everyone wanted to see some big name big money player come into town, but that's just not gonna happen, it's not Marvins style....I honestly believe that the only reason Sapp was pursued was to try to appease the wrongly disgruntled fan base, and get the team some national attention, not for what Sapp would have brought to the field....

As for the FA's that Marvin brought in....Let's see, I count 1 WR with a Super Bowl ring, 1 safety with a ring and another appearance in the Super Bowl, 1 LB that has a super bowl ring, and one guard that has been to 3 NFC championship games, that's a lot of playoff experience, something this team lacks. Don't you think Marvin noticed how the team couldn't sustain the push in December when it mattered most? Would 1 big money superstar help that? Hell no, but a locker room full of players that have been their sure as hell would. How many times did the Bengals play too damn tight last year in games they should have won? Players that have been to the top would have helped a whole hell of a lot more than 1, or even 2 big money cap killers. That's the truth.

Besides, I give the team a B simply cause they cut Hawkins....

[kevnz]

bingo redsfan2 bingf*ckin-o. 

and bengals44, all we did was fill holes, did we fill them with better players than last year?  I dont think any position was filled with a better player so far.

not improved? How is Kevin Hardy not an improvement over Adrian Ross? and as bad as Hardy played at Middle Linebacker, I don't see how Webster wouldn't be an improvement. I would also differ about Herring not being an upgrade over Roman. They may not be leaps and bounds improvements, but when you add it up I'll think you'd find that it's a pretty good move.

[BengalszoneBilly]

But, There is still a perception that Cincinnati isn't the place to play

That will swing 180 degrees in 12 months I assure you.

[Bengals44]

Part of the problem was an unwllingness to overpay for any FA's(rightly so at that) But, There is still a perception that Cincinnati isn't the place to play...I've read that we offered Taylor and Vincent either equal or better money and they still said no...That kinda threw a monkey wrench into things, plus being tight against the cap didn't help....

I know everyone wanted to see some big name big money player come into town, but that's just not gonna happen, it's not Marvins style....I honestly believe that the only reason Sapp was pursued was to try to appease the wrongly disgruntled fan base, and get the team some national attention, not for what Sapp would have brought to the field....

As for the FA's that Marvin brought in....Let's see, I count 1 WR with a Super Bowl ring, 1 safety with a ring and another appearance in the Super Bowl, 1 LB that has a super bowl ring, and one guard that has been to 3 NFC championship games, that's a lot of playoff experience, something this team lacks. Don't you think Marvin noticed how the team couldn't sustain the push in December when it mattered most? Would 1 big money superstar help that? Hell no, but a locker room full of players that have been their sure as hell would. How many times did the Bengals play too damn tight last year in games they should have won? Players that have been to the top would have helped a whole hell of a lot more than 1, or even 2 big money cap killers. That's the truth.

Besides, I give the team a B simply cause they cut Hawkins....

not improved? How is Kevin Hardy not an improvement over Adrian Ross? and as bad as Hardy played at Middle Linebacker, I don't see how Webster wouldn't be an improvement. I would also differ about Herring not being an upgrade over Roman. They may not be leaps and bounds improvements, but when you add it up I'll think you'd find that it's a pretty good move.

Kevnz obviously understands what my point is...

Marvin is methodically bringing in his type of player and attempting to develop depth in each postion, all of which fit his style... As an example, bringing in two 30+ big-named players that my not be a "system fit" is not near as good as bringing in 4 younger players that are nice fitting parts...

I will cite New England once again - they do not even keep their own players when they "outprice the system" - see Lawyer Milloy and the Ty Law (soon to no longer be a Patriot)... Let Marvin do his thing, see the overall picture and forget about names, he has a plan that will and does work...

[chrishcovga]

Even with those who resigned, there is still a considerable amount of cap-room that has been assigned to our free agents.

T.J.Houshmanzadeh,Glen Steele,Leyva,Mathews, and of course Rudi-.

---These players represent holes that haven't been filled as well, until they re-sign.

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As for the FA grade. It's gotta be a D, simply because we targeted guys , had them within 60 minutes ( according to Sapp ) of signing deals, then backed away ! Taylor and Marion, entered FA with the plan to play for Marvin, but we couldn't get our wallets open,and it turns out they signed for less money in other places..? That's just pathetic.

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Defensive Tackle is still a hole, because the only person of value is Thornton. Defensive End is still a hole because we have no depth behind Clemons, and he's 32. '04 is Powell's last year, and Clemons' as well. De is a need in this draft, so is DT, and CB.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Let Marvin do his thing, see the overall picture and forget about names, he has a plan that will and does work...

Bengals44...I almost used these words for my new signature. But since YOU said it first I'm going to ask your permission to do it. I would suggest you keep it for your own...I would!

[kevnz]

Even with those who resigned, there is still a considerable amount of cap-room that has been assigned to our free agents.

T.J.Houshmanzadeh,Glen Steele,Leyva,Mathews, and of course Rudi-.

---These players represent holes that haven't been filled as well, until they re-sign.

Don't think you can call RFA's a hole, they have two options, sign with the Bengals or retire....Yeah they could get an offer from another team, but the Bengals either match, or get a pick....eaither way, hole is plugged....

[Bengals44]

Let Marvin do his thing, see the overall picture and forget about names, he has a plan that will and does work...

Bengals44...I almost used these words for my new signature. But since YOU said it first I'm going to ask your permission to do it. I would suggest you keep it for your own...I would!

If you are serious, go for it - it's all yours...

...and ditto to what Kevnz says regarding our RFA's, hence the term "restricted"...

[chrishcovga]

Well retiring may be an option for Mathews, which means we'd need to fill a 3rd quarterback.

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T.J. had almost signed with San Fran,till' they opted for Brian Poli-Dixon.

--

Glen Steele hasn't garnered any interest as far as I can tell.

--

Leyva and the rest aren't sure things to make it through training camp anyways.Steele and Mathews are unrestricted.

--

Leyva,Kaesviharn,Stewart,Rudi,T.J. are still threats to leave,and we wouldn't get any compensation for Kaesviharn,and everyone else are just 5,6,7 round picks.A lot harder to replace depth with the fringe draft players.

[JBrooks]

Certainly not an A in the Free Agency period, but it wasn't a wash either.

We lost Goff. That sucks. But Williams will do alright with a line that has 4 returning starters.

Patrick Johnson adds depth at WR.

Webster, Herring and the re-signing of Beckett? Only time will tell, but these guys are in the Patriots mold of players who fit the scheme.

In the draft, we need to upgrade DT (with possible depth coming if we sign Gardener) and Cornerback. I think we need to look at depth on the O-line and possibly RB and DE.

We have (with the signing of Rudi) 11 starters set to go on offense.

I think we have 8 starters set to go on defense. Maybe nine if Weathersby comes along, but we definitely need a new DT, a better edge guy than Powell or Clemons and a new CB, whether it's to play the spot opposite James, nickel or dime.

[Kirkendall]

No, FA hasn't been good. No, the plan for FA hasn't been good.

We haven't gotten one defensive lineman, nor a cornerback; both are consensus with this forum and most Bengal fans as desperate needs. They, from this moment, haven't upgraded LB -- the verdict is out on Webster and we have NO idea how he's going to do. I could go on, but I've talked about this in other posts and getting tired of it.

These are my points.

1. We've looked absolutely confused during FA with a bit of clumsiness.

2. The players we have now are NOT going to take us to the Super Bowl. If we don't open the wallet (overpay sometimes) we may never have the players to help us win.

3. We haven't upgraded our team, we've stayed even keel.

There's no doubt Marvin knows how to coach and get the best out of his players, but convincing players with proven leadership, veteranship, and Pro Bowl qualities, not so sure he can do it.

[halp]

ya know, maybe, just maybe, we have some decent players on our current roster. you can't get every free agent out there, and many of them are NOT as good as WE'D like to believe. we've weathered this storm, let's see what happens at draft time and who we release and or sign after june 1st. hey.... this is still an exciting time... think back 3-4-5 years ago. oh s**t...did i really ask you to regress? sorry

[tigerpwz]

With the salary cap every team has holes. We so far have used FA for what its for..to fill holes. You make your own star players by drafting them not by signing someone elses. If they were that good to begin with their own teams would not have let them go.

Looks like Jeremiah Trotter will be cut after June 1st if ESPN is to be believed. Would be a nice addition but im kinda eager to see what Webster will do.

[redsfan2]

No, FA hasn't been good. No, the plan for FA hasn't been good.

We haven't gotten one defensive lineman, nor a cornerback; both are consensus with this forum and most Bengal fans as desperate needs. They, from this moment, haven't upgraded LB -- the verdict is out on Webster and we have NO idea how he's going to do. I could go on, but I've talked about this in other posts and getting tired of it.

These are my points.

1. We've looked absolutely confused during FA with a bit of clumsiness.

Point #1 sums up what I meant by my earlier post. I wasn't comparing players we were talking to with the ones we had cut ... or the others that were available.

I was stating that we seemed confused in our dealings with the players that were brought in. Last year we brought a player in and laid it out for him ............ we're interested in you for this reason. We are going to play such n such an offense / defense .... and we see you filling this role. Here's our offer. Yes ?? Great! Sign here ....... No or My agent will get back to you ? Thank you very much for the visit. We'll be moving on to the next player we have on our list .... and no, we won't wait to hear form you.

That simply did not happen this year. The One and Only proactive move we made ( and a good one ) was to tender the max offer to Rudi. Vincent we wined and dined and waited for. Ditto for Taylor and Sapp. ( well Sapp never actually got here, but you know what I mean ) Thing is that while we were waiting, we were doing absolutely nothing to prepare for the possibility that these guys wouldn't sign. If we'd made the offer to Taylor that we ended up making while Vincent was jetting around, he would have taken it. When we make it public knowledge that " we wanted Vincent .... but now we'll settle for you " then you're going to get the reaction that we got. It was bad negotiating to wait for Vincent to set the market and then offer less to Taylor.

I still feel that we did not do the same level of work in dealing with free agents that we did last year. I don't know what the difference was, but it was noticeable not only in the process, but in the results that it yielded, and it mad me nervous.

[kevnz]

Leyva,Kaesviharn,Stewart,Rudi,T.J. are still threats to leave,and we wouldn't get any compensation for Kaesviharn,and everyone else are just 5,6,7 round picks.A lot harder to replace depth with the fringe draft players.

But except for Rudi those are fringe guys anyway....And to be honest, if somebody ponied up a 1st and 3rd for Rudi I'd say take it, stomach "sorry ass" for one year and draft a RB in round 1, or two....

Plus something to take note, we can still match any RFA, so I really think you can't call it a hole.

Lastly, if Matthews leaves then it's no big deal cause they still have Kit, and it gives them a chance to get a QB to let Zampese develop on the side...

[Bengals44]

OK - I can see the reason there is a thought of indecisiveness w/ both Vincent and Sapp....BUT, the truth is that the indecisiveness w/ Vincent was all his - he wanted to go to Carolina the whole time and settled for extra cash in Buffalo (again Marvin refuses to overpay and Troy is 33). I'm not saying he wouldn't have been a good signing only that "it must fit"...

W/ Sapp, well if you take him at his word (which I have a lot of problem w/ believing anything from a man - and I use that term loosely - such as Sapp), then maybe we did blow that one... If he said OK to our offer (as his "rubber-crutch" ass says he did), then we should have completed the deal at that point... I believe Sapp has fabricated this story a bit; why else would anyone offer a deal, get a "yes" and then say uuuhhh, hold on a moment... That makes no sense and please don't tell me Brown said uuuuhhh, 'cause the offer had to be approved before it was laid out...

If you read Bengals.com today, you will see a reference to the way New England handles it's personnel moves - I have stated that more that once myself and some of you are probably tired of hearing it, but the truth is that their plan obviously works very, very well... That plan is to get players who fit the system and are not overpaid and continue to build depth - it's really that simple and becomes a machine in time... I ask you why else do the 'Pats rid themselves of Lawyer Milloy w/ Ty Law next...? Can we not all see that they have now overpriced themselves and no longer fit the system at a ridiculous price...?

I will re-hash my point earlier that we have filled 5 of 7 holes this off-season, granted they are not "big-name players", but I personally do not care as long as the "fit the system"... I'm sure some will say, hey will only re-signed in some spots, but that is just as important as signing someone else's palyer, maintaining the concept is the key!! Consider that Braham is the only older player on top of that - Marvin is building, not just plugging w/ short-term solutions... We must have quality depth at each spot more than we must sign a “name"... It is happening if you only open your eyes...

One last spot that I did not touch upon in my original post is DE - we definitely need to upgrade that LE slot, but we can get away w/ what we have for another year, especially if we get an immediate impact DT in the draft... I can see Tony Williams actually playing some DE vs. rushing situations if we get one... Williams' stregth is penetration, but his size would be enough to let him stymie the run at an end slot...

I would love to see us get Woillfolf in the first round and if we end up w/ 3 3rd round picks (ours, Dillon traded and a compensatory pick) we may even be able to package one of those w/ our first pick to move up 4-5 slots to get him...

I simply see a good plan taking effect and get tiresome of the criticism from those who are so wrapped up w/ signing names - let it happen men!!

[bengalsfansince68]

Hey 44:

I recently discovered this site.

I have discovered that 2 or 3 times already, I have agreed with you.

As this FA period began to unfold, I found myself hoping that we would sign this guy or that so that we might take another step forward in 2004. Now that things likely have wound down until draft day, I feel really good about the way Marvin is handling this. I for one, fell that not signing Vincent, Taylor and Sapp could well be a big plus in the future. The goal to me is to put together a team that can contend for the playoffs and Super Bowl year after year for as long as you can.

Not signing those players will leave us in much better position, cap-wise

for the next few years as we go about building that team with the strength and depth to compete for the next decade.

The way to do that is to acquire good, young players. Develop them and keep them for 6 to 10 years.

One way not to do that is to spend all of your cap-space on players who may or may not help for 2 or 3 years.

I choose at this time to believe in Mr. Lewis. It is very possible that Marv knows more about what he is doing and what needs to be done than all of us on this board put together. I will believe in ML until he proves to me that he does not.

Depth is huge. Marv knows that and believes that it is more important than signing Star players beginning a down hill slide

I

[HoosierCat]

I feel similar to redsfan, except that I think they did indeed have a plan, and it was a bad one. From what I can tell, it ran something like this:

1. Go into FA as inexpensively as possible. This meant that there would be no aggressive effort to restructure Kitna or re-sign any RFAs. This preserved all their bonus dollars for use on outside FAs, but reduced available cap space and left them open to having to match unfavorable offers (see Graham, Shayne).

2. Preserve all Kitna and CD trade options. A second reason why no deal was done with Kitna: why pay bonus $ to a guy you may trade?

3. Pass on the first wave of DBs in FA. Reluctant to spend on a Winfield or Plummer, the Bengals bet that the price tag on CBs would come down as FA moved on, and that in any event older players like Taylor and Vincent wouldn't be getting big deals. Both bets were wrong.

4. If we fail to sign a CB in FA, find a quality DT. The backup plan. At least one of the needs had to be filled going into the draft, so we could look to filling the other. If both were still holes, we would pretty much be locked in to taking those positions in the first two rounds.

All four points failed. They got burned on Graham, caught under the cap, couldn't move either Kitna or CD in time, the CB market didn't do what they hoped and the final plan to switch to targeting a DT not only flopped but was a PR disaster.

Overall, the plan had many vices but, to the Bengals front office, one key virtue: it held the promise of being the least expensive one. If it had worked, all our own RFAs would have had no choice but to sign for whatever the Bengals felt like offering, we could have shored up CB with an aging (and theoretically inexpensive) veteran, and preserved the option of dealing Kitna without handing him any money.

But, as they say in the military, no plan survives contact with the enemy, and by the start of FA the Bengals were committed. There was no time, for example, to go work out a restructure with Kitna (at least not on terms they found acceptable), so there was no way to open up cap space when the CB market stayed high. No second round pick materialized for CD -- in fact there was little interest at all -- so no space was gained there. Jax delivered a blow with its offer to Shayne, which we had to match or start all over on the kicking game. In the end, the Bengals were reduced to reacting to events and, as usual, chasing FAs no one else wanted (or appeared to want) because too much of the Bengals FA focus remains money, not whether or not the player is one who can help us win.

At least, that's how it looks to me.