Character Issues

[Jet23]

I hear a lot of fans griping about the Bengals wasting picks on questionable character guys. The reality is, many relatively high draft picks are either not going to make the team, or will have virtually no impact on their possible success. Let's face it, their roster has never been deeper. Marvin is simply taking flyers on players that could have a major impact on the success of the team. If the guys don't work out, you cut them loose, just like you would the good character guys that suck. Take Brooks for example. This is a guy that was an All American as a SOPHMORE. This is a pro bowl caliber talent. If he gets fat and smokes some jane, you cut him loose. Are we that much worse off than we would be when we would have used the pick to select a backup tight end? How about these 3rd round world beaters?

1993 - Ty Parten

1994 - Steve Shine

1995 - Melvin Tuten

1996 - Ken Blackman

1997 - Rod Payne

1998 - Steve Foley

1999 - Cory Hall

2000 - Ron Dugans

2001 - Sean Freaking Brewer

2002 - Matt Schobel

2003 - K-Wash

2004 - Caleb Miller

2005 - Chris Henry

Only Henry and Foley stand out and they both have character issues. It's a risk reward thing people. You guys will be swinging from his hairy bean bag if he turns out to be the next Joey Porter...

[redsbengalsbucks]

I hear a lot of fans griping about the Bengals wasting picks on questionable character guys. The reality is, many relatively high draft picks are either not going to make the team, or will have virtually no impact on their possible success. Let's face it, their roster has never been deeper. Marvin is simply taking flyers on players that could have a major impact on the success of the team. If the guys don't work out, you cut them loose, just like you would the good character guys that suck. Take Brooks for example. This is a guy that was an All American as a SOPHMORE. This is a pro bowl caliber talent. If he gets fat and smokes some jane, you cut him loose. Are we that much worse off than we would be when we would have used the pick to select a backup tight end? How about these 3rd round world beaters?

1993 - Ty Parten

1994 - Steve Shine

1995 - Melvin Tuten

1996 - Ken Blackman

1997 - Rod Payne

1998 - Steve Foley

1999 - Cory Hall

2000 - Ron Dugans

2001 - Sean Freaking Brewer

2002 - Matt Schobel

2003 - K-Wash

2004 - Caleb Miller

2005 - Chris Henry

Only Henry and Foley stand out and they both have character issues. It's a risk reward thing people. You guys will be swinging from his hairy bean bag if he turns out to be the next Joey Porter...

Very good point, but I hope he has better personality than Joey Porter.

[JPW316]

I will not stand idly by and allow anyone to disparage the ability of Ron Dugans special teams madman...that guy was a frickin cannon ball, the only player who really hustled on teams destin to lose more often than win. Dugans was awesome and should be appreciated for what a true under-utilized talent he was.

Otherwise, Jet23 makes a valid point. The Bengals are getting hammered for taking guys who may have gone in the first round but for their "issues" while the Steelers take a guy in the first round with issues who then gets arrested ten minutes after he's drafted. If you're going to gamble, gamble in the late rounds, not the first round.

In most drafts you're hoping two ot three of the picks last long enough to fill out their contract. Why not take five guys with character issues with bonafide talent as opposed to taking fliers on some choir boy with suspect skills. If two of them turn it around and succeed, you're already above the curve.

All this talk about the Bengals is just filler since this has been a boring football offseason with limited free agency movement. You can only talk about TO and Parcells so much before you have to find another topic to beat into the ground.

[kingwilly]

First off, I doubt it. But even so, at this point it is warranted criticism of the staff for thier continued gambling on picks who, while their upside may be high, they are at big risk to implode.

Let's break out the picks in question:

Henry - showed poor class/attidue in college. Ok, we can live with that, the upside was big and he more than fulfilled the expectation...then he committed career suicide. Not all the Bengals fault. I have not really criticized them for this pick.

Odell - had some issues, fights, lack of discipline and respect...but news of skipped/failed drug test and the following suspension were only a moderate surprise. I think he can turn it around...Not a terrible pick but a costly one if it goes wrong.

Rucker - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. That on top of his averageness and the reach the bengals made in taking him in r3. This is a bad choice.

Nicholson - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. But, he is a very good player who, if he could turn it around is worth an r5 pick, right up until he gets busted AFTER he is drafted...Bengals look like fools.

Brooks - Kicked off team after numerous run-ins, discipline issues and purported failed drug tests...we roll an r3 pick on him. He is a very good LB but again, the risk is very high that he will F it up before he gets a start.

The Marvin Lewis Reform School for Young Men must be building its charter class.

[Jet23]

First off, I doubt it. But even so, at this point it is warranted criticism of the staff for thier continued gambling on picks who, while their upside may be high, they are at big risk to implode.

Let's break out the picks in question:

Henry - showed poor class/attidue in college. Ok, we can live with that, the upside was big and he more than fulfilled the expectation...then he committed career suicide. Not all the Bengals fault. I have not really criticized them for this pick.

Odell - had some issues, fights, lack of discipline and respect...but news of skipped/failed drug test and the following suspension were only a moderate surprise. I think he can turn it around...Not a terrible pick but a costly one if it goes wrong.

Rucker - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. That on top of his averageness and the reach the bengals made in taking him in r3. This is a bad choice.

Nicholson - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. But, he is a very good player who, if he could turn it around is worth an r5 pick, right up until he gets busted AFTER he is drafted...Bengals look like fools.

Brooks - Kicked off team after numerous run-ins, discipline issues and purported failed drug tests...we roll an r3 pick on him. He is a very good LB but again, the risk is very high that he will F it up before he gets a start.

The Marvin Lewis Reform School for Young Men must be building its charter class.

Fair enough, but let's compare them to pre-Marvin picks. Below, I will list the player drafted, followed by the problem that I saw with the pick.

A. Smith - sucked

Klinger - sucked

Childress - sucked

Brewer - sucked

Dorsch - sucked

Fisher - sucked

Hawkins - sucked

T. McGee - sucked

Wilkinson - sucked

R. Wilson - sucked

K. Carter - sucked

They were a bunch of good dudes though

[Who Dey Time]

Funny, I don't remember people saying how good are character was when the team went 4-12 every year. The bottom line in professional football is winning.

Would it be nice to win with all good guys? Sure it would. But, would you rather go 12-4 with some questionable character guys or 4-12 as long as everyone on the team was a solid citizen?

In two weeks, the conversation will turn towards football and not how a small # of guys made poor decisions. Hell, it wouldn't shock me to find Henry on the waiver wire come September.

[kingwilly]

First off, I doubt it. But even so, at this point it is warranted criticism of the staff for thier continued gambling on picks who, while their upside may be high, they are at big risk to implode.

Let's break out the picks in question:

Henry - showed poor class/attidue in college. Ok, we can live with that, the upside was big and he more than fulfilled the expectation...then he committed career suicide. Not all the Bengals fault. I have not really criticized them for this pick.

Odell - had some issues, fights, lack of discipline and respect...but news of skipped/failed drug test and the following suspension were only a moderate surprise. I think he can turn it around...Not a terrible pick but a costly one if it goes wrong.

Rucker - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. That on top of his averageness and the reach the bengals made in taking him in r3. This is a bad choice.

Nicholson - Known criminal issues...MAJOR RED FLAGS. But, he is a very good player who, if he could turn it around is worth an r5 pick, right up until he gets busted AFTER he is drafted...Bengals look like fools.

Brooks - Kicked off team after numerous run-ins, discipline issues and purported failed drug tests...we roll an r3 pick on him. He is a very good LB but again, the risk is very high that he will F it up before he gets a start.

The Marvin Lewis Reform School for Young Men must be building its charter class.

Fair enough, but let's compare them to pre-Marvin picks. Below, I will list the player drafted, followed by the problem that I saw with the pick.

A. Smith - sucked

Klinger - sucked

Childress - sucked

Brewer - sucked

Dorsch - sucked

Fisher - sucked

Hawkins - sucked

T. McGee - sucked

Wilkinson - sucked

R. Wilson - sucked

K. Carter - sucked

They were a bunch of good dudes though

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

being a bastard does not make you a good player, nor does being a good guy mean you are a wuss player. Once you get past that, then you will see that often (especially here) the risk dfoes not outweigh the reward.

Look at it this way...it does not matter why they don' get on the field...suspended or injured....i does not matter. If they can't contirbute, wining gts harder. Imagine if instead of character issues, these players had high risk injury problems...there is NO Difference. Should ML be applauded for taking a guy who has had lots of knee surgeries, since he a good player. Both the injury prone and character probne players share the risk of not contributing., reason be damned.

[HairOnFire]

How about these 3rd round world beaters?

1993 - Ty Parten

1994 - Steve Shine

1995 - Melvin Tuten

1996 - Ken Blackman

1997 - Rod Payne

1998 - Steve Foley

1999 - Cory Hall

2000 - Ron Dugans

2001 - Sean Freaking Brewer

2002 - Matt Schobel

2003 - K-Wash

2004 - Caleb Miller

2005 - Chris Henry

And there it is.

When drafting round by round it is often said that teams expect to get an immediate starter from a 1st round pick, and a future starter who may not play right away with a 2nd round pick. In the 3rd and 4th rounds you're either looking to add a prospect who'll probably never be anything more than a backup or a starter at less critical positions like TE, FB, OG, etc.

Worse, I've read that only somewhere around 30% of 3rd round picks ever earn long-term starting jobs with their so-called parent teams, and more than half are never offered a 2nd multiyear contract from the team that drafted them.

Frankly, a quick scan tells me that every one of the players listed above were ranked no better than the 5th or 6th best prospects at their respective positions, and many of them were actually ranked far worse than that. We simply aren't talking about a round where high impact players are routinely selected. Most 3rd round prospects are mediocre at best or boom-or-bust types who pan out sporadically.

Add Frostee Rucker and Ahmad Brooks to the above list and they start to look pretty good. At the very worst Rucker will provide this team with better than average depth at DE while Brooks has the potential to be something special. So why not roll the dice on a player who has the potential to be great when playing it safe gets you so little long-term return?

[Kazkal]

tatement from Mike Brown

July 14, 2006

Posted: 2:15 p.m.

Brown

Bengals owner Mike Brown released the following statement Friday in response to questions about the team's recent character issues:

“We want our fans to know that we share their concerns regarding the recent off-field conduct of several Bengals players. We expect our players to be good citizens, as most are, and we hold them accountable for their conduct under team and league rules.

“We are closely monitoring these matters. All are currently pending and they will be addressed in accordance with the NFL Collective Bargaining Agreement, including possible disciplinary action.

“Regarding this week’s selection of Ahmad Brooks in the supplemental draft, we are aware of no pending allegations of any kind against Ahmad. The club’s judgment is that any past transgressions were insufficient to deny him an opportunity to prove himself as a responsible NFL player.

“Coach Lewis and I look forward to meeting with our local media at our annual Pre-Training Camp Luncheon on July 26. As usual at this event, we will both be available to respond to any and all questions.”

[HairOnFire]

Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

So.....everything. Prior to be drafted Corey Dillon was considered by almost all accounts a drug dealing gang member who later bounced cell phones off his wifes head. Did you cheer for him?

I did.

And the reason I cheered is due to his talent and the fact that he was the player who gave the Bengals their best chance of winning. Plus, the last time I checked Patriot fans didn't seem to have a problem accepting the likes of Dillon into their fold, or the championship trophy he helped them earn.

Or how about James Brooks?

He's still an all-time Bengal fan favorite, right? Well, he's also one of the countries most famous deadbeat dads, and a guy who apparently made it through college without ever learning to read.

I cheered for him.

How about Carl Pickens?

When he was drafted he fell to the Bengals based soley on how unlikable he was in several team interviews. The Giants felt he was such a perfect prick that they passed on him despite having a huge need for a WR, as did other teams.

I cheered for him, too.

And we all cheered for Odell and Cheech last season, right?

Hey, I'm just saying...

"All we're doing is cheering for the uniform. We're rooting for laundry." --- George Carlin

[Kazkal]

+ its only grass heh

[BengalByTheBay]

There seems to be a prevalent attitude that "character" means "bad guy." It's this ever-changing definition to meet whatever you want it to mean at the time thing that keeps getting to me. People look at Rucker and say -- he just got arrested for abusing his girlfriend. So, if it's getting arrested that's the problem, then Odell's suspension shouldn't change anything because he didn't get arrested. At the same time, we're hearing that "these guys can't contribute if they're not on the field." I will say this is at least an argument that has some resonance. I totally agree, once a guy gets suspended it's a whole new deal. Henry absolutely will be suspended and it's completely legitimate to say he's screwing the team. Odell is now in the same boat. Nicholson, Brooks and Rucker have not been suspended and are currently (as far as I know) in no danger of being suspended for anything. However, the chorus seems to be happy to give Odell a second chance while condemning Nicholson, Brooks and/or Rucker as worthless and a danger to the team. Isn't this completely inconsistent? So far, Odell is the only one that is objectively hurting the team (pending announcement of Henry suspension). Someone pointed it out before that maybe the difference is simply that people have seen Odell in uniform and playing for the team already and that is why it's easier to overlook all these "character" problems. I tend to look at it the other way around. Odell's had a chance to play and get with the program and somewhere along the line he screwed up. Is he worth another chance -- hell yes. The rooks haven't had a chance to do anything yet. If they screw-up then they should all be treated by the same standard.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

How many of those players were drafted under Marvin's watch?

[HoosierCat]

Fair enough, but let's compare them to pre-Marvin picks. Below, I will list the player drafted, followed by the problem that I saw with the pick.

A. Smith - sucked

Klinger - sucked

Childress - sucked

Brewer - sucked

Dorsch - sucked

Fisher - sucked

Hawkins - sucked

T. McGee - sucked

Wilkinson - sucked

R. Wilson - sucked

K. Carter - sucked

They were a bunch of good dudes though

True -- but that misses the point. A great talent who isn't allowed on the field is no better than a crappy player who can suit up on gameday.

And in one sense, Odell (and possibly Henry) are even worse than having just a crappy LB or WR. A lousy player you can just cut; the good ones you are inclined to cross your fingers and hope for the best. But in just one, count 'em, one season Odell has blown all the way through to a four-game suspension. He's one screwup from being gone for a year and you never know if or when that bomb will drop. Henry is headed for the same situation.

[Kazkal]

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

How many of those players were drafted under Marvin's watch?

0 But hes drafted Carson,eric,landon,madieu,david,joseph,whiteworth etc who are known for great character.

5 questionable picks out of 30 "shrug"

[BengalByTheBay]

True -- but that misses the point. A great talent who isn't allowed on the field is no better than a crappy player who can suit up on gameday.

And in one sense, Odell (and possibly Henry) are even worse than having just a crappy LB or WR. A lousy player you can just cut; the good ones you are inclined to cross your fingers and hope for the best. But in just one, count 'em, one season Odell has blown all the way through to a four-game suspension. He's one screwup from being gone for a year and you never know if or when that bomb will drop. Henry is headed for the same situation.

So, doesn't this simply devolve into another discussion about whether ___X____ (pick your player) was drafted at the right spot? In other words, the elusive "character" is simply one factor upon which you base a draft decision -- meaning that you don't totally avoid someone because of it (any more than you completely take somebody off your draft board who has a bad combine workout or has a bad bowl game, right?), you simply take it into account. If that's the case then what we're really arguing about is whether you, or Mel Kiper, or the Bengals were correct about a prospect. Those arguments can go on forever and are only ever resolved with "we'll see in 3 years." And, no, I don't think it's any worse to have a player not be on the field because of a discipline reason than it is because they are just plain not good enough. In both cases you don't get any production from a draft spot, right? So, "we'll see in 3 years" is what I have to conclude about Nicholson and Rucker and Brooks. As for Henry and Odell, we're 1 year into that 3 years. My guess is that my opinion and yours about both Henry and Odell will be pretty darn close.

[Wraith]

It is funny how few people have brought up the high character guys like Palmer, Steinbach, Pollack, Joseph, Jeremi Johnson, or Landon Johnson these were all Marvin picks too.

Sheesh I think I saw Pollack feeding starving childern in Africa and teaching the blind to read this offseason. BTW You think Palmer would have inside scoop on Frostee? or Pollack on Odell? the plan is clearly to take some high character guys and mix in some questionable character guys with outstanding athletism.

[Jet23]

Fair enough, but let's compare them to pre-Marvin picks. Below, I will list the player drafted, followed by the problem that I saw with the pick.

A. Smith - sucked

Klinger - sucked

Childress - sucked

Brewer - sucked

Dorsch - sucked

Fisher - sucked

Hawkins - sucked

T. McGee - sucked

Wilkinson - sucked

R. Wilson - sucked

K. Carter - sucked

They were a bunch of good dudes though

True -- but that misses the point. A great talent who isn't allowed on the field is no better than a crappy player who can suit up on gameday.

And in one sense, Odell (and possibly Henry) are even worse than having just a crappy LB or WR. A lousy player you can just cut; the good ones you are inclined to cross your fingers and hope for the best. But in just one, count 'em, one season Odell has blown all the way through to a four-game suspension. He's one screwup from being gone for a year and you never know if or when that bomb will drop. Henry is headed for the same situation.

I am not disputing that point. IMO Odell was the biggest risk, because we burned a 2nd round pick. However, even with the 4 game suspension, many of us would probably still select him in that slot. Why, because we all got a taste of what he can do. But, most of the character issue discussion revolves around guys selected in the 3rd round or below. Like Hair pointed out, in most cases these are just guys filling out your roster. I admit, some of these guys are not good people, but that doesn't mean they can't be good football players and teammates. Come on, who here didn't root for the the prison team to beat them damn guards?

IMO ML is taking calculated risks. Some of them are going to pay off. Some of them will not. Again, I believe this is a product of having a strong roster already. Guys in the 3rd round and below are not going to have a significant impact. If you can get a 1st round talent in the 3rd round, to me it's worth the risk. If it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world.

[Bengalbob]

First off, I doubt it. But even so, at this point it is warranted criticism of the staff for thier continued gambling on picks who, while their upside may be high, they are at big risk to implode.

When you say "they" do you mean the players with issues, or the team as a whole?

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

It's all Mike Browns fault though. Marvin has no blame, right?

Something "bad" happened, isn't anyone going to line up to blame Mikey?

[Bengalbob]

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

How many of those players were drafted under Marvin's watch?

0 But hes drafted Carson,eric,landon,madieu,david,joseph,whiteworth etc who are known for great character.

5 questionable picks out of 30 "shrug"

I'm with you. I'd also say "risky" instead of "questionable". In any talent search you have to take some risks or you will never see the high reward. Fill a team with "safe" third round picks and see what it gets you. Spicing in some risk is going to get you a Chad Johnson or Terell Owen in the second or third round.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

How many of those players were drafted under Marvin's watch?

0 But hes drafted Carson,eric,landon,madieu,david,joseph,whiteworth etc who are known for great character.

5 questionable picks out of 30 "shrug"

Yeah, but there were probably only about 10 questionable picks (at least *that* questionable) out of the 600 players drafted in the 3 years, and we have about half of them. The only one on par with the ones we have that I can think of is PacMan Jones, and the only reason we don't have him is because he was drafted high in the 1st. I mean seriously - how many other teams have drafted 2 players in one year who were arrested before signing?

As for drafting nice guys, I see it more as an accident than anything intentional. And the Carson pick doesn't count at all in Marvin's favor, not even the Texans could have screwed up that pick. I think that Joisey made a good point on here recently - only the Madieu pick was a real gem that wasn't obvious, with the Bengals getting good value without character risk.

[alleycat]

Add to your list: TJ, CJ, Rudi, Big Willie, Levi, Brian Simmons, Justin Smith....yes, there have been MANY bad selections...but there have been many good ones as well. Corey Dillon was a hell of a player for the bengals but he was an incomparable azzhole. so what?

How many of those players were drafted under Marvin's watch?

0 But hes drafted Carson,eric,landon,madieu,david,joseph,whiteworth etc who are known for great character.

5 questionable picks out of 30 "shrug"

Yeah, but there were probably only about 10 questionable picks (at least *that* questionable) out of the 600 players drafted in the 3 years, and we have about half of them. The only one on par with the ones we have that I can think of is PacMan Jones, and the only reason we don't have him is because he was drafted high in the 1st. I mean seriously - how many other teams have drafted 2 players in one year who were arrested before signing?

As for drafting nice guys, I see it more as an accident than anything intentional. And the Carson pick doesn't count at all in Marvin's favor, not even the Texans could have screwed up that pick. I think that Joisey made a good point on here recently - only the Madieu pick was a real gem that wasn't obvious, with the Bengals getting good value without character risk.

I beg to differ. I'd certainly call Landon Johnson a great pick. He's starter material even if he isn't the flashiest of players - and keep in mind that he played with a torn labrum the whole year that he led the team in tackles. And what about Tab Perry for God's sake? I'd also say that Geathers, Fanene, Guycheck etc. will prove themselves shortly, but have already been productive given where they were drafted and what we've already gotten out of them.

[HoosierCat]

IMO Odell was the biggest risk, because we burned a 2nd round pick. However, even with the 4 game suspension, many of us would probably still select him in that slot. Why, because we all got a taste of what he can do.

But how long is he going to do it? Like I said elsewhere, next stop is a year's suspension. And this is only his SECOND year. We're talking about him not screwing up for the rest of his career. What do you think the odds of that are? I have to think not good. If I were Marvin and I knew then what I know now...no, I think I find a better use for the No. 2.

Guys in the 3rd round and below are not going to have a significant impact. If you can get a 1st round talent in the 3rd round, to me it's worth the risk. If it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world.

Well, see, this is the key here. Ask any NFL GM or owner and head coach and they will tell you that it's not the first and second rounds thast make or break you, it's the later ones. That's where you truly "build through the draft." You need to find that talent that doesn't cost you an arm and a leg, at least for the first few years. You can see that in key positions around the Bengals -- Rudi and TJ and JJ and Landon. These lower-round selections are not throwaway picks. Waving your hands and declaring that it's "just a 3rd or "just" a 5th is whistling past the graveyard. Where did Rudi go? Where did Tom freaking Brady go?

Take the occasional character risk? OK. But we now have a number of players equivalent to about 10% of the active roster under suspension or investigation. And most of 'em seem to be concentrated at the LB and LB/DE positions where we are in definite need of answers, not more questions.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I beg to differ. I'd certainly call Landon Johnson a great pick. He's starter material even if he isn't the flashiest of players - and keep in mind that he played with a torn labrum the whole year that he led the team in tackles. And what about Tab Perry for God's sake? I'd also say that Geathers, Fanene, Guycheck etc. will prove themselves shortly, but have already been productive given where they were drafted and what we've already gotten out of them.

I think Landon was a decent pick where they got him - they maybe got 2nd round value for a 3rd rounder. He's a guy that won't be a hole in your D as a starter, or he's a great backup. Yes I know he led the team in tackles but that's a product of 1) his position, and 2) the miserable line they had that year. That's not exactly a steal, just a good pick. As for Geathers, we'll see, he'll be a steal if he proves he can be a starter but I think last year left that in question. Fanene hasn't done much at all. As for Guycheck, too early to tell. I'll grant you Tab, even getting a kick return specialist in the 6th is good. But for 3 drafts, I'd expect more without having to draft felons.