My back and forth with the writer for Patriots.com

[BTG]

From Patriots.com

Hey guys, I have a few questions I was hoping you could answer for me. What the heck are they doing trading Bethel Johnson to New Orleans for Sullivan? I know we need depth at the defensive line and all, but doesn’t this move make us extremely thin at the wide receiver position? This leaves us with only Deion Branch, Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Chad Jackson and Bam Childress as reliable options. If we have injuries at this position we are going to be in a world of trouble. Do you think maybe Bill and staff are content with having those 5 receivers, the three tight ends and the new running game to carry us through the season or do you think they have another trade in the works (let’s say Patrick Pass for Ashley Lelie?)....

Joe Kaczenski

Patrick Pass for Ashley Lelie? ... I don’t mean to bust your chops Joe but no team in the NFL is going to make a trade just so the Patriots can become a better football team without giving up anything. No team other than the Cincinnati Bengals, that is.

-Tom Casale

I sent him the following e-mail in response:

I'll ignore the fact that Rudi Johnson ran for more yards in his first season as a starter than Corey Dillon ever did in all his years in Cincinnati and focus on the specifics of the trade.

The last time I checked, Cincinnati was breaking in a new quarterback the year they traded Dillon to the Pats. They had to know that they were not quite ready to compete with them that season and their coaches felt Dillon didn't have much left in the tank. After all, he was coming off an injury-plagued season where he ran for a whopping 541 yards on 138 carries. Not exactly big time numbers.

Besides, the coaches and front office understood they were building the offense around Carson Palmer, a strong offensive line, a set of fresh legs at running back, and a talented young receiving corps...not the thirty-year-old (disgruntled) Corey Dillon who was costing them millions of dollars a year and having numerous run-ins with the head coach.

Granted, Dillion was a Pro Bowl selection in '04 and a major piece of the Pats Super Bowl team. However, one season, 733 yards and 3.5 yards a carry later, he was worn down...just like Marvin Lewis and company knew he would be. To further prove this, New England used a valuable first round draft pick on a running back. Hmmm.

Knowing all this and looking at things objectively, who came out smelling like roses in that trade? The team who used the draft pick to choose a potential Pro Bowl safety who will likely be the center of their defensive secondary for the next ten years or the team who landed a running back who gave them one good season, cost them a few million dollars in salary cap space, and forced them to use a first round pick on another running back a year later?

Just some food for thought.

He replied back to me a few minutes ago:

I'll take the Super Bowl trophy and just for the record, are you related to Madieu Williams by any chance? Also, this argument has nothing to do with Rudi Johnson. The bottom line is the Bengals made the best team in pro football even better for a 2nd round pick and I know for a fact a lot of other teams in the league were not happy when they made that deal because they could have just casted Dillon off to the Raiders instead. I can argue no Dillon would have resulted in no third Super Bowl. I seriously doubt Madieu Williams will ever be that important to the Bengals in any capacity. Take care.

To which I responded:

By all means, take the trophy. Shine it up with some Never-Dull and place it in a large case at the front entrance of Gilette Stadium with the other two for the world to see. Seriously, we're all happy that the Patriots are an excellent football team. The point I was trying to make is that the Bengals were building for the future (as in the next 3-5 years) while the Pats tend to "live in the now" with most of their personnel moves.

(Note: We've tried "living in the now" in Cincinnati, but it never really worked too well for us - Neil O'Donnell, Gus Frerotte, etc. Knowing this, we're currently trying something new and it seems to be working.)

Anyway, it's obvious that Dillon was no longer the right player for the Bengals AND they had a player who could run the ball just as well for less money and a whole lot less attitude, so why not auction Corey off to the highest bidder? In this case, that happens to be the Patriots. Granted, it was only (was it four spaces?) slightly higher than the Raiders, but why not take the best offer you get, other NFL teams be damned? The rich get richer...so what? If I were trying to run my own software business and I was selling supplies to a competitor to raise money, why wouldn't I sell to Microsoft if they were offering more than someone else? Why take a smaller offer just to "stick it to the man"? Get real. That's amateur stuff, Tom.

Lastly, am I related to Madieu? Sadly no, because he'll be a multi-millionaire when he signs his next contract extension. This is a guy who's 6'0" 195 with excellent speed who can play corner or safety...kind of sounds a lot like Michael Huff, doesn't it? Also, don't forget that as a rookie, Madieu had 103 tackles, 3 picks and 2 sacks. Pretty good numbers, eh? Especially when you consider that he was a rookie. He's also healthy now after injuring his shoulder last year, just so you know. Mark it down, Tom, he'll be in the Pro Bowl within two or three years.

The last thing I'll say is I really appreciate your reply and courtesy of tone. I'm sure you're being deluged by e-mails from irate Bengals fans. I'm sure they can be quite frustrating.

Regards.

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****EDIT****

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Here's more. Him:

Actually I didn't realize you were a Bengals fan. I'm used to getting yelled at by Patriots fans, themselves, forget about fans of the other 31 teams. All I'm saying is AT THE TIME, the trade was a gift for the Patriots because they gave up very little to get a Pro Bowl back. Now, I am on record as stating that I will send Patriots fans t-shirts if Dillon breaks 1,000 yards this season because I think he's all done.

I agree in the long-term that maybe this trade will bite the Pats because Dillon will have only given them one good season but at the time, it was a steal and he did help them win a Super Bowl and as I'm sure you know, those aren't easy to come by. Who says the Patriots will ever win another Super Bowl so you take them when you can get them. And come on my friend, four draft spots? Knowing the Patriots are the team you have to beat to get where you want to go and you make them stronger over four draft spots? Even if I was a Bengals fan that would have made me mad. You talked about making a good business decision but that was an awful business decision in my opinion.

Good luck this year. Hopefully we'll have a Bengals/Cowboys Super Bowl where T.O. gets the last laugh on 85. Take care.

Me:

This is the last thing I'll say, and I'm sorry to occupy so much of your time.

I understand what you're saying, but you have to know that four spots in the second round can be a huge. It could be the difference between landing a Chad Johnson or Eric Steinbach (or Madieu Williams) as opposed to someone who will never make a significant contribution to the team.

Like I said to begin with, the Bengals knew they wouldn't really have a legit chance to compete with the Pats the first year after the trade, so they gambled that Dillon would only be effective for one season, maybe two at the most. That gamble seems to have paid off judging by last season.

One more thing to think about regarding the trade. Perhaps there was also a bit of loyalty and appreciation for everything Corey had accomplished in Cincinnati involved somewhere. What I mean is, rather than shipping him to a team in turmoil to finish out his career, they sent him to a team with an excellent chance of winning a third Super Bowl. I see nothing wrong with that.

Thanks again for your time.

Regards,

Thomas

PS: 85 > 81 (Chad leads. T.O. disrupts.)

[rudi32]

Interesting exchanges there. I never understood all of the criticism the Bengals got for this trade. After all, the team shopped Dillon around for a while, and it became pretty clear no one would part with anything higher than a second round pick for him. He was a veteran back with a lot of miles on him, and had a reputation as a bit of a malcontent.

Who cares if the trade was with the Patriots? You're right on the money that the Bengals didn't see 2004 as their year and figured Dillon had little left in the tank anyway. In the long run, if Madieu can stay healthy, I think we'll look back on this trade as a win-win situation at worst, and perhaps something of a steal for Cincinnati.

[Stripes]

[derekshank]

So the Bengals knew they weren't going to compete for a Super Bowl, and had a player that was demanding a trade. Who cares if we traded him to the defending Super Bowl champs. As long as the Bengals aren't going to the Super Bowl, why should we care who does? (With the obvious exception of the Steelers) Last time I checked, it wasn't the Bengals responsibility to maintain the parity of the league.

[BTG]

Honestly, I'm shocked that the guy replied not once, but twice. Usually these guys are so full of themselves that they won't even really read what you have to say, let alone type out two replies.

[Stripes]

What's with the snotty T.O. comment at the end of his last email? That guy sounds like an ass to me regardless of his unexpected participation in this banter.

[BengalByTheBay]

This whole exchange is kind of funny. His premise is stupid. It reminds me of the comments (why oh why am I cursed to remember this so clearly) by Michael Irvin immediately after the trade to the effect that "you can't trade with somebody in the same conference." WTF? This could only possibly be a point if the trade was within the division -- not the whole conference. It was hardly a one-sided trade under the circumstances as everybody (including this Patriots tool) concedes that CD had to go. It was a completely level-headed business decision by the Bengals. IMO if they had traded him somewhere else for less it would have been a story along the lines of "there go those woeful Bengals again - making stupid moves and getting taken advantage of..." Just an awful take on the whole episode. It might have made a lot of sense for the Raiders to have given up more than they were willing to -- but that's their problem. Based on the moves they did make for the past couple of years, I would much rather have the Bengals' track record.

This guy seems pretty resigned to the fact that CD is done and that the Pat's. are unlikely to be back in the big game any time soon.

[Ox]

Well done BTG, well done. It looks as if you got him to fold. Dillon was a cancer, and that's one thing this team could not still retain and move ahead.

[HairOnFire]

"I can argue no Dillon would have resulted in no third Super Bowl. I seriously doubt Madieu Williams will ever be that important to the Bengals in any capacity." -Tom Casale

That's some serious stupidity right there. There's no doubt that the addition of Dillon made a championship team stronger for another season, but to claim that the Patriots weren't capable of winning another title without him is absurd, and that seems to be the premise Casale's entire rant is built upon. He flat out acknowledges that Dillon's tank is almost dry, but still claims the trade was one-sided, largely because he seems to have no idea who Madieu Williams is. Which is fine if you happen to be a grocery clerk, but not so good if you're a sportwriter covering the NFL.

[Kazkal]

EH why would we care we wearn't contenders that year coming off a 2-14 season,

[BTG]

EH why would we care we wearn't contenders that year coming off a 2-14 season,

They went 8-8 in Corey's last season (Marvin's first year as HC).

[lando griffin]

"I can argue no Dillon would have resulted in no third Super Bowl. I seriously doubt Madieu Williams will ever be that important to the Bengals in any capacity." -Tom Casale

That's some serious stupidity right there. There's no doubt that the addition of Dillon made a championship team stronger for another season, but to claim that the Patriots weren't capable of winning another title without him is absurd, and that seems to be the premise Casale's entire rant is built upon. He flat out acknowledges that Dillon's tank is almost dry, but still claims the trade was one-sided, largely because he seems to have no idea who Madieu Williams is. Which is fine if you happen to be a grocery clerk, but not so good if you're a sportwriter covering the NFL.

Exactly. Him not knowing Madieu and his potential is the only evidence you need to prove his ignorance in this discussion.

[Dadraftnick]

I have to say I dont think that the Bengals thought that Dillon only had a year or two left in him, if they did they wouldn't have demanded and waited for a 2nd round pick for him.

The Bengals have given up guys (by cutting them) that they could have got alot out of for years.

The reason that Dillon had to go is that he would not get with the program, he treated Marvin like he was his "bitch" and Marvin tried like everything to give a little and put up with Dillon's antics until he had enough and traded him.

Thank God ! I was happy to see Dillon go.

I remember a player saying on Best Damn Sports Show that "all you had to do to shut down Dillon was hit him in the mouth(stop him) in the 1st quarter"and he wouldn't try the rest of the game.

Which was true,Dillon was a BIG BABY if everything didn't go his way he quit trying,gave up.didn't try.

If there was not a BIG whole to run in instead of bouncing the play outside, Dillon would push back to back against the gaurd or whoever it was and wait to be tackled.

If you watch the thing about Dillon on Fox Sports he felt 'disrespected by every team,coach,and everyone he knew or he ever played for and every thing (be it criminal acts or fueds) was always the other guys fault.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

"I can argue no Dillon would have resulted in no third Super Bowl. I seriously doubt Madieu Williams will ever be that important to the Bengals in any capacity." -Tom Casale

That's some serious stupidity right there. There's no doubt that the addition of Dillon made a championship team stronger for another season, but to claim that the Patriots weren't capable of winning another title without him is absurd, and that seems to be the premise Casale's entire rant is built upon. He flat out acknowledges that Dillon's tank is almost dry, but still claims the trade was one-sided, largely because he seems to have no idea who Madieu Williams is. Which is fine if you happen to be a grocery clerk, but not so good if you're a sportwriter covering the NFL.

I think with the team they had by that point, they don't win with Kevin Faulk or whoeverthehellelse they had. I'd have to agree with him somewhat.

Further, I'd say this: when you win a championship, you don't second-guess trading away a second-round pick that may - or may not - have been what got you the trophy. You don't care, it's worth it. I hope we have the chance to fully appreciate this fact soon.

[HairOnFire]

I think with the team they had by that point, they don't win with Kevin Faulk or whoeverthehellelse they had. I'd have to agree with him somewhat.

The had already won MULTIPLE championships with a collection of marginal RB's. Simply put, the Patriots were a champion team that was built around the strength of it's offensive and defensive schemes, not the talent level of offensive skill position players at RB or WR. Adding Dillon most certainly gave them a much desired upgrade at an important position, but to claim that the Patriots couldn't have won another championship with the journeyman RB corp they had used in the past ignores the fact that they had won with that type of player more than once, and could have done so again.

Look, the trade made sense for New England. I doubt anyone will argue that point. But the trade also made sense for Cincy. It wasn't a one-sided trade by any stretch of the imagination. For proof of that just check out the thread asking which Bengal is most likely to become the next Pro Bowl player. Madieu Williams name comes up quite often, right? And coupled with the fact that the Bengals haven't missed Corey Dillon at all, and the fact that he's rapidly nearing the end of his career, then you begin to see the wisdom in trading Dillon to the highest bidder.

Here's a question for you. Knowing what we know now who wouldn't make that trade again?