Frostee Rucker Vs. Eric Henderson

[WretchedOne]

OH MY f**king GOD.

I CANNOT BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!

WE GOT HENDERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been wanting this kid since I found him in Feb.

Henderson is a BEAST who got injury problems.

All his problems are rather small things though and nothing serious. This latest thing is a toe problem, thats why he's a UDFA. He was able to return to full action for at least 6 games after each injury in 2004 and 2004.

I swear, if Eric was able to stay healthy, he would have EASILY been the #2 DE in the draft.

I promise you all. If Eric can stay healthy he'll be a pro-bowl player.

Bank on it.

[HoosierCat]

That be good been thinking about the rooster and damn 53 is just not enough

I just want to see this 53-man rooster.

I mean, that's gotta be one mighty big rooster. Roosterzilla, maybe.

If you did manage to get that thing on a rotisserie spit...you might even be able to provide one full meal to Sam Adams

[schweinhart]

Wasn't our Draft "Expert" 0-8 on his draft picks this year, and 0-7 last year? Maybe you need to stop pimping a bunch of no name players, I don't know but that should say something

Wow...you must realize how little that means coming from a Nostradamus of your ilk.

Let's have a quick look see at what says something based on the Zone mock that was indeed a whopping 0-8.

1. Antonio Cromartie -- went 5 spots too early

2. John McCargo -- went almost a round too early when Buffalo panicked like they did on Whitner (at least they waited around for Ko Simpson)

3. Chris Gocong -- (You know, they guy who wasn't a 4-3 DE) went about 15 spots earlier in the 3rd to the Eagles

4. David Thomas -- Over a round early than picked -- wishful thinking

5. Charles Davis -- Bengals obviously didn't like him or apparently any other TE enough to draft and he went 2 picks after Bengals pick in 5th.

6. Jahmile Addae -- Who thought the Bengals might need a safety? Anyway, Addae turned out to be an undrafted rookie free agent who has signed with the Falcons.

7a. Nick Reid -- Bengals needed a LB with some positional versaility and opted for Nicholson. Reid went undrafted but signed with the Chiefs.

7b. Marcus Hudson -- Bengals might have pulled the trigger on him instead of Kilmer had Hudson not gone the pick before the Bengals in the 6th.

I like to look at this process more as approximating what the Bengals are looking for. They did get the CB in the 1st -- great because they'll need him. Got the DT in the 4th instead of the 2nd -- all right. Got their DE in the 3rd (even if it is Frostee Rucker). And picked up the LB that can at the very least play strongside and backup middle. Got their gunner who may or may not have some impact on a side of the ball. Personally, I liked the idea of drafting TEs since the Bengals are stretched thin there. But instead it was McNeal and Bobo Breezeway.

Besides:

Whur Ko Choo Choo At And the Pope-Pope Kaboose?

Maybe you should stop pimping players. I think this speaks volumes.

But actually, I do think the Bengals would've been better off getting Ko in the 3rd that Frostee Freaking Mother Rucker....But maybe that's just me....at least now anyway.

In any event, still awaiting word that Henderson has actually signed with the Bengals. I can't wait to see him in pads because he already plays with the chip and he's gotta to be highly pi$$ed now.

[HoosierCat]

(Note to self: p*ss not off the schweinhart or he will kick your a$$... )

[WretchedOne]

I'm not the draft expert for this site.

In my defense. Here is a post at another Bengals Message Board where I correctly named 3 players that we drafted.

I know 3 of 50 isin't impressive, but it really is when you think about it. I don't know of anyone else who correctly named 3 people we drafted....

3 of 50 of 330+ which IS pretty damn good. (I got 4 if you count Eric)

http://forums.cincybengals.com/showthread.php?t=12039

[schweinhart]

(Note to self: p*ss not off the schweinhart or he will kick your a$$... )

I'm putting the gloves on for another one. Oh, it's a Wretched job but doesn't somebody got to do it? I mean, I'd hate to see the content degenerate.

But first:

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgere...cs/14475776.htm

The Bengals have apparently signed Henderson.

But this whole debate about Rucker should really get thicker with or without Henderson in the mix. It was great to get to the playoffs last year and even with a defense that was a ramblin' wreck in the wrong way, the Bengals still had a shot for a Super Bowl bid until Carson went down.

But....regardless, the pass rush was atrocious last year and before that the run defense was an absolute sieve largely because the heavily stunting D-Line scheme was all wrong for the personnel, which was less than mediocre in any event. Part of that has since changed with the scapegoat Les Frazier long gone.

Under Marvin, Rucker represents the first Day 1 defensive line pick if you don't count Pollack. So far the D-line picks have been Peko in the 4th, Jumpy Jr. in the 4th, Mathias Askew in the 4th, Langston Moore in the 6th IIRC, Jon Fanene in the 7th and Elton Patterson in the 7th. No doubt the 1st D-line free agent signing with real force in Sam Adams should be the larger gauge of finally putting a D-line worth a hoot together after 4 years, but I really do think the effectiveness of Marvin as a D-line talent evaluator and the influence of Jay Hayes in that process is going to be on the line. I don't want to see Marvin go 0-7 draftwise because it negatively impacts the team's chances of winning, but if it goes that way, the Kool Aid is going to get electric.

[HoosierCat]

It's cool, wretched. Relax. Ya did fine.

The Bengals have apparently signed Henderson.

Excellent.

Under Marvin, Rucker represents the first Day 1 defensive line pick if you don't count Pollack. So far the D-line picks have been Peko in the 4th, Jumpy Jr. in the 4th, Mathias Askew in the 4th, Langston Moore in the 6th IIRC, Jon Fanene in the 7th and Elton Patterson in the 7th. No doubt the 1st D-line free agent signing with real force in Sam Adams should be the larger gauge of finally putting a D-line worth a hoot together after 4 years, but I really do think the effectiveness of Marvin as a D-line talent evaluator and the influence of Jay Hayes in that process is going to be on the line.

I think that about covers it. I have talked before about the way the Bengals ignore the d-line in the draft. And this goes back beyond Marvin; Big Daddy and Justin Smith are about it in the last 10+ years. If you want to know why our d-line consistently stinks, well, if you don't draft d-linemen and you don't buy them in FA...like Bill Engval says, there's your sign.

Marvin can prattle on about it's not the d-line, but for all his faults Ray-Ray over in Baltimore is right on the money in his complaints about not having help up front. It all starts in the trenches, and for the Bengals it has all started falling apart in the trenches for far too long. If we don't see some serios d-line improvement in 2006 then they need to have a long, hard think about their thinking.

[walshfan]

Recipe for a good Dline

1. 2 teaspoons of pass rushers from both sides

2. 1 teaspoon of penetration from a tackle

3. 1 tablespoon of a bigass runstuffer/block clogger (slobberknocker)

4. put all ingrediants into a good scheme and add a pinch of safety blitzes

5. cook for the preseason and serve to the opponents once the season starts..

If it turns out great you can serve it at the Super Bowl too...

[peteroseforpresident]

I can outrun Rucker, he's that slow for a football player. and I'm not even in shape, and I'm fat. Henderson will be a backup imo

[derekshank]

I don't know what all the complaining is about Ruckers production. Firstly... sacks are the most over-rated stat in the history of the NFL. Pressuring the QB to throw it before he feels comfortable is just as important... just not as sexy on the stat line. (I honestly don't know how Rucker is in that department... but the fact that he had only 6.5 sacks doesn't worry me).

The other stat that is just as important as a sack is a tackle for loss. Aren't they pretty much exactly the same thing? The offense lost yards instead of gaining them? Rucker did extremely well in this department.

Was he worth a 3rd round pick? I wouldn't have thought so, and a lot of people on this board still don't think so either... but Marvin saw something he likes, and the only people I can find that have anything negative to say about the pick are know-it-all Bengal fans. The "experts" seem fine with the pick.

I don't know the guy, I've never taken notice of him on the field, because the Rose Bowl was the only USC game I watched, but if Marvin believes this guy can get a pass rush, I'm happy with him - even if he only plays part time (ala Robert Mathis).

As for Henderson... if he ends up being better than Rucker... great! I don't understand the problem here. Rucker will probably be a fine spot starter, but if he can't find his way on the field because Henderson gets over the injury bug, then it is good for the Bengals.

It is also equally good for the Bengals if the Rucker pick ends up being a good one. The point is, no one right now knows, and I don't much care... as long as one or both of them can get to the QB and make the team better.

[HairOnFire]

I can outrun Rucker, he's that slow for a football player.quote]

Rucker isn't slow. I just rewatched the televised coverage of the combine, and while Rucker's group wasn't highlited they do show them long enough for his 1st 40-yard dash to be evaluated. Amongst the points made...

Rucker has almost no background running track related events, and those types of events weren't considered very important at USC. For example, even a running back like Lendale White could spend three years in that program and never produce a single recorded time in the 40. This is incredibly relevant because prior to the combine Rucker had to learn a starting stance just to compete in the combines 40 yard dash drills. The actual stance he used was described by the commentators as incredibly awkward, far too upright, needlessly compact, and almost certain to produce a poor start. And that's exactly what happened.

Rucker was shown false starting on his first two attempts, and the starter normally does this when a runners technique is so poor that he's certain to hurt his draft standing to to the poor time produced. On Rucker's 3rd attempt his 40 is slow precisely because of the reasons previously mentioned. Because his prestart is too upright there's no forward body lean whatsoever....a huge disadvantage. Because his stance is too compact he's slow to rise into his normal running position. And because the stance was awkward Rucker doesn't begin to use his arms until a few strides after he has become upright. He's clearly not a track guy. Just a football player being forced to compete in a track event.

Yet despite all of the above factors that were sure to add several tenths to his recorded time the commentators were quick to point out how quick Rucker looked, and how well he moved, once he was upright. They also commented briefly on how massive his thighs and lower legs were when compared to the pure speed rushers he was competing against.

[derekshank]

Rucker isn't slow. I just rewatched the televised coverage of the combine, and while Rucker's group wasn't highlited they do show them long enough for his 1st 40-yard dash to be evaluated. Amongst the points made...

Rucker has almost no background running track related events, and those types of events weren't considered very important at USC. For example, even a running back like Lendale White could spend three years in that program and never produce a single recorded time in the 40. This is incredibly relevant because prior to the combine Rucker had to learn a starting stance just to compete in the combines 40 yard dash drills. The actual stance he used was described by the commentators as incredibly awkward, far too upright, needlessly compact, and almost certain to produce a poor start. And that's exactly what happened.

Rucker was shown false starting on his first two attempts, and the starter normally does this when a runners technique is so poor that he's certain to hurt his draft standing to to the poor time produced. On Rucker's 3rd attempt his 40 is slow precisely because of the reasons previously mentioned. Because his prestart is too upright there's no forward body lean whatsoever....a huge disadvantage. Because his stance is too compact he's slow to rise into his normal running position. And because the stance was awkward Rucker doesn't begin to use his arms until a few strides after he has become upright. He's clearly not a track guy. Just a football player being forced to compete in a track event.

Yet despite all of the above factors that were sure to add several tenths to his recorded time the commentators were quick to point out how quick Rucker looked, and how well he moved, once he was upright. They also commented briefly on how massive his thighs and lower legs were when compared to the pure speed rushers he was competing against.

Good stuff. I'm not saying that a 40 time is useless, but it's close. Vernon Davis admitted he had been training on how to start out of the blocks in the 40 to make his time better and better. He's a fast TE, no doubt... but not that fast.

The point is, speed is important in the NFL... but game speed is what really matters. If Rucker doesn't know how to come out of the blocks, while guys like Davis are training specifically for that purpose, you can just imagine how that throws the numbers off.

Is he fast enough to play LB? Maybe not... but I'm not going to base my opinion on his 40 time.

[HairOnFire]

If Rucker doesn't know how to come out of the blocks, while guys like Davis are training specifically for that purpose, you can just imagine how that throws the numbers off.

It was clear from my first glance that Rucker hadn't trained much for running the 40. In fact, while it would be nearly impossible to describe his stance accurately it appeared to me that the stance he actually ran from was very close to the resting position that most runners assume BEFORE shifting into their final explosive position. Almost like he had begun training, but never progressed to the final step.

Again, no forward body lean at all. Rucker kept his head directly over his feet. No slight rise into a coiled position. Instead, Rucker kept himself in a low, almost squashed looking position. And finally, their was no attempt made to pre-position his arms for a powerful start. Rucker kept both arms low with his hands positioned as if he was more concerned with falling over. Sheesh, using your arms correctly is critical when attempting to run fast times, right?

How bad was it? After Ruckers first failed attempt the cameras panned to a couple of coaches sitting in the stands. The commentators guessed that the reason those coaches were laughing loudly was in response to Rucker's stance, but who knows? Maybe Jon Gruden farted? But as important as 40 times are in the evaluation process I'm fairly certain that any coach, including those laughing, would place more importance in film study of game action than the stopwatch time of a football player who obviously had almost no background running in track events.

[kingwilly]

Are we ignoring that, despite the "Track" start, first step and explosiveness are key to DE (and TE for that matter)????

If Frostee's can't learn, from the time the season ended to when the combine happened, how to start and effectively run for 40 yards as fast as he can to maximize his ability and draft spot then maybe we can add a leaning disability to his less-than-average speed.

We can make any excuses we want, but as it relates to production and ability to beat an NFL Tackle, his first 10 yars are the most important...I watche dthe combine and have seen the re-runs on NFL Network including the drills...he displayed poor speed and explosiveness compared with guys like Anderson, Adjeyanu, Haralson, Edwards...I mention them because they were still there when we picked in r3.

I do admit one should take a "Sum Total" view when evaluating a guy. No 40 time, short shuttle or college sack productiion should be over weighted but taken more in a "Whole" approach...I think "Wholly" Frostee is sub-par for r3 as compared with guys who were still there...

[TJJackson]

I think "Wholly" Frostee is sub-par for r3 as compared with guys who were still there...

That about bottom lines it for me

Right position, wrong player

We needed a DE, we got a Frostee instead.

[Dadraftnick]

Can anyone show me where Frostee Rucker was rated as a 3rd round talent????

Almost every thing that I have seen has him rated from 5rd round to an undrafted FA.

I cant remember seeing many DE's with 6 sacks for a season, that played the whole year and weren't injured, being rated that high.

Point being that he was a major reach with little production.

Where Henderson was a stea,l a guy with 24 tfl's and 11 sacks in '03 who would have been drafted at least by 5th round if not for his history on injuries.

[HoosierCat]

Hair has one instance of him projected to the 3rd.

I've seen 2 boards that projected him in the 4th.

One site had him ranked 13th among DEs, another list had him 10th.

Rucker was a reach, but not as much as some have made him out to be.

[BengalPappaw]

The one thing about a potential bad draft pick -- the play on the field will sort out the crap!!

We will see how good Rucker really is during training camp and the pre-season games.

I just hated to see us pass on Ko Simpson for Frostee Rucker.

One other possibility is that Robert Geathers may step up his game because of the competition.

[HairOnFire]

I watche dthe combine and have seen the re-runs on NFL Network including the drills...he displayed poor speed and explosiveness compared with guys like Anderson, Adjeyanu, Haralson, Edwards...I mention them because they were still there when we picked in r3.

I hate to spoil an inspired rant, but I just watched the combine coverage of DE's last night and Rucker was shown only once. That was when the 3rd group of DE's were shown running their 1st 40 yard dashes. He never made another appearance, which wasn't all that unusual since the coverage concentrated on one group of defensive lineman almost exclusively. Some prospects weren't shown at all.

As for the idea that I'm making excuses for his poor 40 time, sorry, but the discussion of his awkward stance was made by the observers BEFORE Rucker ran. They predicted that his lack of track background would hurt his time, and it most certainly did. If you want to ignore that info, well that's just fine, but I'm most certainly not making excuses or homer analysis. I'm simply passing along information that was discussed at the combine prior to Rucker running.

Frankly, I'd think you guys would find this sort of information valuable, as it will help you understand why Rucker makes the roster after fan favorite Eric Henderson is kicked to the curb.

[HairOnFire]

Can anyone show me where Frostee Rucker was rated as a 3rd round talent????

Almost every thing that I have seen has him rated from 5rd round to an undrafted FA.

My advice now is the same as it was prior to the draft. Ignore the ratings. They're guaranteed to be crap no matter which source you use, and that's true regardless of whether you find them in print, online, or over the airwaves.

The true rankings are always determined on draft day.

BTW, Pro Football Weekly ranked our 1st round pick, Jonathan Joseph, as an undrafted Free Agent. They gave the same undrafted grade to Domato "Island Boy" Peko. And the Sporting News didn't even list Jon McGargo, another 1st round pick, in it's entire guide. Mel Kiper? Well how many hours and rounds did his best available prospects list remain unchanged?

[WretchedOne]

I definately appreciate your posts about Rucker's 40. Very imformative.

It is VERY frustrating when you post stuff like that and peopel completely ignore what you've said as if that doesn't matter.

I had so many of those types of conversations with people about a 1st round saftey. Everyone wanted Whitner and would simply not listen to reason.

People get to caught up in what people like Scott Wright of Draft Countdown says like's it's gospel, but the guy is a complete hack who is no better at the draft than any other joe shmoe.

I mean I was pimping Joseph FOREVER, go ask em' and gobengals.com. Everyone called me NUTS and yet who did we draft? No one would listen to me about what kind of skills he had, people said "he's a reach". Only after JJ ran a 4.31 at the combine did people actually listen and even then they were still WAY to set on Ko, Whitner, Cromartie, Allen, Willaims....

We simply were not taking a saftey in 1, I offerend NUMEROUS reasons as to why we would not, and yet, I was just an idiot who didn't know what I was talking about.

Drives ya' crazy...

[HoosierCat]

BTW, Pro Football Weekly ranked our 1st round pick, Jonathan Joseph, as an undrafted Free Agent. They gave the same undrafted grade to Domato "Island Boy" Peko. And the Sporting News didn't even list Jon McGargo, another 1st round pick, in it's entire guide. Mel Kiper? Well how many hours and rounds did his best available prospects list remain unchanged?

Not sure where PFW's head was at regarding Joseph. I've been following media and other draft sites and mocks for months keeping the database updated and he's been consistently listed as a top corner, definite day 1, and possible round 1, pick.

Just about everyone had Peko undrafted, so we will see who was right on that. That looks like a Sean Brewer-caliber reach right now, so that's a selection to keep an eye on even more so than Frostee, who maybe g0ot picked a round early.

Whispers about McCargo started a few weeks before the draft; apparently his workouts were jaw-dropping and there was talk that he could sneak into the first -- which he did. It was a pick I was happy not to see the Bengals make, even tho I covet a first-round DT, because I prefer production on the field over workout results. (For the same reason I was happy to see Bunkley go off the board early, too.)

[kingwilly]

HOF-

What is being run as a re-run is edited down...the combine coverage was Pseudo-live....and far more involved...the WR re-runs show very little of Avant, while the day-of coverage had him all over the drills...

I have Tivo and it is just a fact...

I hope Rucker turns out to be a good pick, because what his play, perfomrance and every other indicator given to "Joe-fan" shows he probably should have been r5-6...

I think we've exhausted this one for now...sorry to drag this on and on.

[HairOnFire]

What is being run as a re-run is edited down...the combine coverage was Pseudo-live....and far more involved...the WR re-runs show very little of Avant, while the day-of coverage had him all over the drills...

I have Tivo and it is just a fact...

I too have Tivo, and I recorded the original coverage and kept it on my Now Playing List for months precisely for the purpose of rewatching it after the draft when Bengal picks were known. This is the 2nd year I've done this and it can be very enlightening if one of the Bengals draftees is competing in a featured group. For example, while watching the show featuring offensive lineman Bengals 2nd round pick Andrew Whitworth was shown running both of his 40-yard dashes, doing surprisingly well in the Hip Rotation Drop Drill, playing the rabbit in the Mirror Drill...he beats the blocker several times, and working in the cone drill that simulates pulling technique. It's great stuff because you can judge his body without the pads and watch how he moves in the drills. In short, that guy is a freaking monster who I largely overlooked the first time because I wasn't very focused on him or the position he plays.

That said, it's a little frustrating when a Bengal draftee isn't in the featured group. The purpose of the coverage seems to be more about demonstrating the series of drills prospects compete in far more than showing the viewer all of the players. And because that's true I can tell you far more than you'd be interested in about the featured group that included Bunkley, Gocong, Bennet, or a bunch of guys who weren't drafted at all. As for our boy Rucker, he's shown only once, very late in the coverage after the featured group has completed all of the drills. Beyond judging his body build while he's standing in shorts all you get to see is the one 40-yard dash. His day at the combines was just getting started.

Bottom Line: I'm not attempting to make excuses for Rucker's time. It is what it is. He obviously isn't a rabbit and he won't remind anyone of a Manny Lawson style DE/OLB tweener. But I think it's fair to say that the poor time he produced is a reflection of one of the bigger DE's in the draft displaying horrible running technique in a track event....and I doubt it concerned Marvin Lewis at all.

[schweinhart]

There's not much point to get gummed up in the 40 time of a DE. The 10 yard dash is a more telling measurable of the burst a DE has to be able to maintain contain, get backside pusruit and recover on screens and misdirections. By one source, Frostee Rucker's 10 yard dash time was tied for 2nd worst among the 23 listed DEs who ran at the combine.

But regardless, the Bengals got what they lost in this pick -- Duane Clemons. What the defense lost in a player like Clemons when he played, namely those 3 things that he lacked -- contain, backside pursuit and recovery in the misdirection -- they gained in hand-to-hand ability in trash, a body type that could hold the line vs. the run as well as jam inside and a smart veteran player who could get to the QB through his own wits more than anything else. Time will tell if Rucker can match Clemons in those upside attributes.

The game tape is going to be more valuable than TIVOd combine action in any event. The Rose Bowl is probably the best one to watch to gauge where Rucker is at but the comp he was up against was only slightly an improvement over the UCLA game where he beat the hapless giant Ed Blanton for a sack after Blanton had to switch to Frostee's side because the other USC DE was killing him. However, there should be a couple of things that jump out in his favor in the Rose Bowl and this is collapsing inside vs. the run and anticpation on screens and dumps in short area that to some degree could offset his lack of burst.

But if anyone is hoping for an improved pass rush this year through rookie contributions, those hopes probably should be more on Eric Henderson than Frostee Rucker.