Perry to Dolphins

[Spor_tees]

I started this Thread for a reason...I am tired of everyone quoting "Lance's Blog", because quite frankly the guy makes the same type of predictions you or I could make based off news reports and what is on the internet. Name one thing Lnace has gotten right? As far as Steinbach is concerned, he read the same article you or I read that said there was an extension offer already on the table for him and Levi. Saying Steinbach will soon sign is a 50/50 guess. He could have just as easily said Levi will sign soon. You guys really are starved for some news.

By the way to clearify things, yes I did mean we would trade Perry and a third rounder or so, for the Dolphins 16th pick, not straight up. And for all the people that want to keep Perry, you guys are nuts! We could replace what Perry does in a hearbeat!

[schweinhart]

You guys really are starved for some news.

Between bengals.com and the rest of the Cincinnati media outlets, is it any wonder why?

[jamesbrooks21]

Not anymore starved for news as some people are starved to throw out crazy unrealistic trade ideas. Everyone knows Marvin isn't trading up. He has said it a bajillion times. We would have to give up too much to trade up. Besides, if we did make this trade, then we would have to use a first day pick on a RB that probably wouldn't be able to contribute this year. Perry now entering his third year is just getting comfortable, why would we want to start the whole process over again? Especially when we know what we have in Perry, someone very capable of getting it done.

[GapControl]

From DC Bengals Fan:

Remind me what Perry's done, again, other than prove he can't run the ball between the tackles?

These are the facts Jack:

Chris Perry Cincinnati Bengals 2005

Rushing

Games/ GamesStarted/ Att/ Yards/ Avg/ Lg/ TD/ 20+/ FirstDowns

14 2 61 279 4.6 30 0 2 15

Receiving

Games/ GamesStarted/ No/ Yards/ Avg/ Lg/ TD 20+/ 40+/ FirstDowns

14 2 51 328 6.4 28 2 1 0 16

The reason Chris Perry seems to not run well between the tackles is because of game-time situational play calls and play designs. He is asked to provide an alternative to Rudi Johnson who most often does best running off the right guard or left guard and not around either tackle.

In Total Yards From Scrimmage (TYS), Perry notted 607 yards. If compared to the totals gathered by the top TYS producers on offense of all but Carson Palmer, Perry ranks 4th in TYS for the Bengals:

*---Carson Palmer-------- 3877

1---Rudi Johnson---------- 1540

2---Chad Johnson--------- 1465

3---TJ Houshmanzadeh----1018

4---Chris Perry------------ 607

5---Chris Henry------------422

6---Kevin Walter---------- 211

7---Matt Schoebel--------- 193

8---Kelly Washington----- 101

9---Reggie Kelley---------- 90

10--Jeremi Johnson------- 79

*Interestingly, Tab Perry gained 1562 total all-purpose yards as the main Kick Returner and optional Wide Receiver.

One could present the argument that Chris Perry is the 3rd Receiver option and 1st Tight End (alternative) in Bratowski`s offense. Perry outgained Chris Henry in reception by 40% and compiled 193 more receiving yards than Matt Schoebel, the offense highest Tight End performer. Given Chris performed a more than sufficient job as the first backup to running back Rudi Johnson, his value for the Bengals team sky rockets well past his own first round selection at number 26 and casts heavy doubt on the team acquiring such an impact player in the 2006 draft at the Dolphins number 16 pick. This also takes into account the team acquiring an additional later draft selection, perhaps in the 3rd or 4th round.

So, please tell me, what again has Chris Perry done?

sorry

2 corrections:

Perry gained 135 yards more than Schoebel and he knotted (not notted!) 607 TYS.

[andybren]

...his value for the Bengals team sky rockets well past his own first round selection at number 26 and casts heavy doubt on the team acquiring such an impact player in the 2006 draft at the Dolphins number 16 pick. This also takes into account the team acquiring an additional later draft selection, perhaps in the 3rd or 4th round.

I don't want to give up Perry, but this is just plain wrong.

First of all, to suggest a player is worth a 1st round pick to his own team, is to suggest that the player has demonstrated franchise-player type skills that are more valuable than the potential greatness of a new franchise-level player. I would say the Bengals only have 2 guys in that category: Carson and Chad.

Second, a player's "value" doesn't improve by putting up unspectacular numbers or by showing potential. Just ask Kelley Washington. If Chris Perry was an RFA this year and offered a low-level tender by the Bengals, nobody would have given up a 1st round pick to sign him. To suggest that Chris Perry has become a more attractive player while not even starting for his team is ridiculous.

Third, the trade you're suggesting (1st and 3rd/4th) is similar to the Ricky Williams trade that the Saints and Dolphins made a few years back. Those teams were trading for a starter who had rushed for approximately 3000 yards in 3 years. He was a proven quantity, and even then the deal included a clause that changed the second pick based on the number of yards Williams gained for the Dolphins.

Fourth, who is available at #16 that is so desirable that the Bengals would trade somebody they clearly think has value? You could probably make the 24/Perry for 16 trade, but why would you? You guys sound like Spain, trying to figure out how many picks you could get for trading Chad or Rudi. Something that nobody would ever be willing to do.

[GapControl]

...his value for the Bengals team sky rockets well past his own first round selection at number 26 and casts heavy doubt on the team acquiring such an impact player in the 2006 draft at the Dolphins number 16 pick. This also takes into account the team acquiring an additional later draft selection, perhaps in the 3rd or 4th round.

I don't want to give up Perry, but this is just plain wrong.

First of all, to suggest a player is worth a 1st round pick to his own team, is to suggest that the player has demonstrated franchise-player type skills that are more valuable than the potential greatness of a new franchise-level player. I would say the Bengals only have 2 guys in that category: Carson and Chad.

By this logic, most of the teams in the NFL have failures as first round draft picks. Not every 1st rounder can be a Franchise Player. The term Franchise is over used. The importance of the 1st round pick is determined during the 1st contract period which the player signs. Perry is well on his way to living up to his contract. His performance now will dictate his 2nd contract.

Second, a player's "value" doesn't improve by putting up unspectacular numbers or by showing potential. Just ask Kelley Washington. If Chris Perry was an RFA this year and offered a low-level tender by the Bengals, nobody would have given up a 1st round pick to sign him. To suggest that Chris Perry has become a more attractive player while not even starting for his team is ridiculous.

Everything comes down to how a player fits in the given system. I argue that Perry is not just a backup running back but also a pass blocker and pass receiver. In my argument, he is a valuable player for his game time contributions. More valuable than Chris Henry, the former Schoebel, or K-Wash./ former K. Walter. You could almost say he is more valuable than all of those mentioned players combined. How can he not be more attractive after his performance in 2005?

Third, the trade you're suggesting (1st and 3rd/4th) is similar to the Ricky Williams trade that the Saints and Dolphins made a few years back.

I didn`t suggest that trade. Someone else did. I am arguing against even a straight up trade 24th pick and Perry for 16th. It sounds stupid. So does 24th pick and Perry for 16th and 3rd round.

Fourth, who is available at #16 that is so desirable that the Bengals would trade somebody they clearly think has value? You could probably make the 24/Perry for 16 trade, but why would you? You guys sound like Spain, trying to figure out how many picks you could get for trading Chad or Rudi. Something that nobody would ever be willing to do.

This is what I am arguing against. I am saying that noone is available at 16th that warrents a trade involving Chris Perry. You seem to be representing two sides of an argument. You argue Perry has value for the Bengals, so they won`t trade, and also argue Perry has no value for the Dolphins because of his lack of starting time. What exactly are you trying to convince me of?

[Spor_tees]

Gap Cpntrol,

You try to make the point that Perry's stats are what they are due to situational runs. Well since he is a Third down back, shouldn't his yards per carry (4.4) be higher since most of the times when he runs it is against a nickle defense on third down and there isn't as many guys in the box as there is when Rudi is in the game? Thing is, Rudi's yards per carry (4.2) is not much lower than Perry's eventhough Rudi runs the ball 3 times as much and his yards per carry factors in short yardage situations and goal line situations.

Secondly, how many TD's has Perry scored? Oh yeah he scored 0 rushing TD's and 2 Recieving TD's despite touching the ball more than Jeremi Johnson (3 TD's), Chris Henry (6 TD's), Chad Johnson (9 TD's), Tj (7 TD's), and Tab Perry (2 TD's).

Thirdly, for being such a game breaker, what is Chris Perry's yards after catch? Perry averaged 6.4 yards per reception last year! If he had broken James Brooks single season receiving record as a RB for the Bengals do you think he should have deserved it when Brooks averaged almost 10 yards per reception to compared to Perry's 6.4?

So now tell me what makes Perry such a great player that can't be replaced by the Bengals? Every year a team finds a player in the draft that can come in and produce stats like this...and they aren't all high draft choices. I think if given as many chances as Chris Perry, Tab Perry could put up better stats than this, AND without getting hurt as much!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I just don't think that a team would swap first round picks for Perry.

[GapControl]

You try to make the point that Perry's stats are what they are due to situational runs. Well since he is a Third down back, shouldn't his yards per carry (4.4) be higher since most of the times when he runs it is against a nickle defense on third down and there isn't as many guys in the box as there is when Rudi is in the game? Thing is, Rudi's yards per carry (4.2) is not much lower than Perry's eventhough Rudi runs the ball 3 times as much and his yards per carry factors in short yardage situations and goal line situations.

I think 4.4 yards a carry is respectable for any halfback regardless of situation.

Secondly, how many TD's has Perry scored? Oh yeah he scored 0 rushing TD's and 2 Recieving TD's despite touching the ball more than Jeremi Johnson (3 TD's), Chris Henry (6 TD's), Chad Johnson (9 TD's), Tj (7 TD's), and Tab Perry (2 TD's).

I am not claiming Perry is a TD machine. I think it is very likely Perry will notch more TDs this season than last but it will be difficult for him to score as many as a Wideout given that he receives out of the backfield and Palmer has atleast 3 or 4 nice Wideouts to which he can deliver the ball. He does get the ball as a RB but as you listed above, he doesn`t in goaline situations. It is easiest for RBs to get TDs when one runs nearest to the goaline.

Thirdly, for being such a game breaker, what is Chris Perry's yards after catch? Perry averaged 6.4 yards per reception last year! If he had broken James Brooks single season receiving record as a RB for the Bengals do you think he should have deserved it when Brooks averaged almost 10 yards per reception to compared to Perry's 6.4?

Those numbers are pretty good for a situational back I think. He is a back, not a receiver or tight end. Though I can see how you can confuse his numbers with those of the former. James Brooks has no place in this thread.

So now tell me what makes Perry such a great player that can't be replaced by the Bengals? Every year a team finds a player in the draft that can come in and produce stats like this...and they aren't all high draft choices. I think if given as many chances as Chris Perry, Tab Perry could put up better stats than this, AND without getting hurt as much!

I never claimed Perry is more integral than CJ or TJ. I didn`t say he is a better receiver than Chris Henry. I am saying now that Chris Henry can`t backup Rudi at RB. But C. Perry can backup Rudi and can even return kicks alongside T.Perry or act as T.Perry`s blocker doing so. I did claim that C. Perry is not worth trading for the 16th pick in the 2006 draft. That is what this whole thread is about. I just don`t see anyone at 16 who can come in, learn the offense or defense, be cheaper (consdering salary and draft compensation) than Chris Perry. He performs far better than many in the NFL in his offensive role. That is why he has met his draft expectation and cannot be traded for some unknown rookie quantity.

[schweinhart]

In any event, it seems doubtful that the Dolphins would be looking to trade down in exchange for a RB already on a NFL roster. More likely they grab a RB on Day 2 like Ryan Gilbert of Houston but it would be great if they burned #16 on a RB so a defensive player would fall a spot.

More likely that the Colts would be interested in trading #30 straight up for an established back, especially one like Perry who is more suited for the single-back spread the Colts run with all their stretch runs. Blitz blocking might be a flag for them in Perry's case and they could look instead to the draft at Joseph Addai at #30. But I'm not sure trading Perry would be worth a #30 this year for the Bengals. He should come in handy. However, he is somewhat expendable if Kenny Watson sticks.

[derekshank]

From DC Bengals Fan:

Remind me what Perry's done, again, other than prove he can't run the ball between the tackles?

These are the facts Jack:

Chris Perry Cincinnati Bengals 2005

Rushing

Games/ GamesStarted/ Att/ Yards/ Avg/ Lg/ TD/ 20+/ FirstDowns

14 2 61 279 4.6 30 0 2 15

Receiving

Games/ GamesStarted/ No/ Yards/ Avg/ Lg/ TD 20+/ 40+/ FirstDowns

14 2 51 328 6.4 28 2 1 0 16

The reason Chris Perry seems to not run well between the tackles is because of game-time situational play calls and play designs. He is asked to provide an alternative to Rudi Johnson who most often does best running off the right guard or left guard and not around either tackle.

In Total Yards From Scrimmage (TYS), Perry notted 607 yards. If compared to the totals gathered by the top TYS producers on offense of all but Carson Palmer, Perry ranks 4th in TYS for the Bengals:

*---Carson Palmer-------- 3877

1---Rudi Johnson---------- 1540

2---Chad Johnson--------- 1465

3---TJ Houshmanzadeh----1018

4---Chris Perry------------ 607

5---Chris Henry------------422

6---Kevin Walter---------- 211

7---Matt Schoebel--------- 193

8---Kelly Washington----- 101

9---Reggie Kelley---------- 90

10--Jeremi Johnson------- 79

*Interestingly, Tab Perry gained 1562 total all-purpose yards as the main Kick Returner and optional Wide Receiver.

One could present the argument that Chris Perry is the 3rd Receiver option and 1st Tight End (alternative) in Bratowski`s offense. Perry outgained Chris Henry in reception by 40% and compiled 193 more receiving yards than Matt Schoebel, the offense highest Tight End performer. Given Chris performed a more than sufficient job as the first backup to running back Rudi Johnson, his value for the Bengals team sky rockets well past his own first round selection at number 26 and casts heavy doubt on the team acquiring such an impact player in the 2006 draft at the Dolphins number 16 pick. This also takes into account the team acquiring an additional later draft selection, perhaps in the 3rd or 4th round.

So, please tell me, what again has Chris Perry done?

sorry

2 corrections:

Perry gained 135 yards more than Schoebel and he knotted (not notted!) 607 TYS.

Wowie! Perry gained more yards than a rookie 3rd string receiver? Does that Hall of Fame committee know about this? He also out-gained TE that caught 18 passes? Outstanding! We should offer him to the Texans and get in the Reggie Bush sweepstakes.

Listen... If we were to hold Chris Perry to the same standard as we have other 1st rounders (namely Justin Smith and Peter Warrick) he is nothing short of a colossal failure. The main difference is that he isn't theo nly weapon because we have a stud RB, and we are winning games.

He's flashy and fun to watch, and he has been pretty effective on 3rd down screen passes... but he simply hasn't shown any ability whatsoever to cut it as an every down back. If we wanted to trade him (which I don't - because he has potential) we would get nothing more than a 3rd round pick for him. And his potential value is much more than that, despite his inability to prove it up to this point. I'd just like to see him make a real impact on a game... hmm, how about 2 weeks in a row.

[bengalboomer7]

Exactly, Dereck. He may be a first round pick, but why in the hell would the Dolphins give that up for a "BACKUP" running back. It just doesn't make sense for the Dolphins to do.

[Kirkendall]

Trading for a Running back short of a pro-bowler is over-doing it anyway IMHO. I've always believed, other than the big time pro-bowl/hall of fame guys, that running backs are the most replaceable. Dolphins already have Ronnie Brown and a third round pick for a back up and some lonely chum will work fine off the wire.

How did this topic get so much play?

[ArmyBengal]

How did this topic get so much play?

Trade debates are always fun and usually generate some interesting conversation !!!

By the way, where's DPM on this topic ???

WHODEY !!!

[Stripes]

How did this topic get so much play?

Trade debates are always fun and usually generate some interesting conversation !!!

By the way, where's DPM on this topic ???

WHODEY !!!

Both extremes in the Perry discussion have been MIA lately.

[ArmyBengal]

How did this topic get so much play?

Trade debates are always fun and usually generate some interesting conversation !!!

By the way, where's DPM on this topic ???

WHODEY !!!

Both extremes in the Perry discussion have been MIA lately.

Maybe that's a good thing, it could get ugly !!!

WHODEY !!!

[GapControl]

How did this topic get so much play?

Trade debates are always fun and usually generate some interesting conversation !!!

By the way, where's DPM on this topic ???

WHODEY !!!

Both extremes in the Perry discussion have been MIA lately.

Maybe that's a good thing, it could get ugly !!!

WHODEY !!!

I wish Bratowski would log on here and give us his opinion of Chris Perry`s value to the team, considering the possible draft compensation he could draw. This is all hypothetical of course. In reality, I think Perry is getting a raw deal by some fans because he came out of Michigan and ran over the Buckeyes in the last game he played against them. I love the Bucks but he shouldn`t be criticized because he is from that other U.

Also, NFL GMs are known to regularly hand out 4 levels of grading for 1st round draft picks. They are in short, as follows:

A. Rare Athlete&College Production with NFL-Sized Body

B. Rare Athlete but Limited College Production with NFL-Sized Body

C. Rare Athlete&College Production with Questionable NFL-Sized Body

D. Outstanding Athlete&College Production with NFL-Sized Body

These 4 levels are essentially for sure 1st round picks. There are couple more grey area rankings for those with troubled pasts and/or lack in Body Size or Athletic Ability. Those types of players fall anywhere depending on the team who is grading.

I would think Perry would receive a grade D and therefore would be the lowest of the sure 1st round grades. In this light, he is not a "franchise player" nor needs to perform as such week in and week out. He is currently outperforming his ranking.

[cincy9275]

no i would not trade perry unless we were offer a top ten pick or a second and third rounder or unless we get a quality player in return . and not some has been.

[Stripes]

no i would not trade perry unless we were offer a top ten pick or a second and third rounder or unless we get a quality player in return . and not some has been.

I'm not even sure DPM would demand THAT much for Perry!

[cincy9275]

no i would not trade perry unless we were offer a top ten pick or a second and third rounder or unless we get a quality player in return . and not some has been.

I'm not even sure DPM would demand THAT much for Perry!

weather most want to believe or not perry is a weapon he can run catch and score from any where on the field . and after the colts game a lot of personal people thought he was the best rb on the field. this is not my opinion just some things i have read.

[BTG]

By the way to clearify things, yes I did mean we would trade Perry and a third rounder or so, for the Dolphins 16th pick, not straight up.

**ties off arm...taps skin to find vein...injects herion-filld needle**

Seriously, do you really think Miami would give up their first round pick for Chris Perry and the 91st overall selection?? Are you out of your freaking mind?? Even the computer wouldn't do that on Madden!

Miami might consider trading their 16th pick for Perry and the 24th overall, and the Bengals might be lucky enough to wrangle a third rounder away from them in the process (and I might win the lottery tonight), but I highly doubt any of it will come to fruition. The fish already lost their second round selection this year and are a few years removed from trading a second rounder for AJ Feeley.

What I'm saying is, I don't see them making any more moves for a while.

Perry gained 135 yards more than Schoebel and he knotted (not notted!) 607 TYS.

Wowie! Perry gained more yards than a rookie 3rd string receiver?

First thing, it's NETTED. Not Notted or Knotted....my gosh. Where'd you all go to school, Princeton?

Second, Chris Henry is not a third string receiver. He's the slot receiver in an offense that uses quite a few three receiver formations. There's a big difference there.

[derekshank]

By the way to clearify things, yes I did mean we would trade Perry and a third rounder or so, for the Dolphins 16th pick, not straight up.

**ties off arm...taps skin to find vein...injects herion-filld needle**

Seriously, do you really think Miami would give up their first round pick for Chris Perry and the 91st overall selection?? Are you out of your freaking mind?? Even the computer wouldn't do that on Madden!

Miami might consider trading their 16th pick for Perry and the 24th overall, and the Bengals might be lucky enough to wrangle a third rounder away from them in the process (and I might win the lottery tonight), but I highly doubt any of it will come to fruition. The fish already lost their second round selection this year and are a few years removed from trading a second rounder for AJ Feeley.

What I'm saying is, I don't see them making any more moves for a while.

Perry gained 135 yards more than Schoebel and he knotted (not notted!) 607 TYS.

Wowie! Perry gained more yards than a rookie 3rd string receiver?

First thing, it's NETTED. Not Notted or Knotted....my gosh. Where'd you all go to school, Princeton?

Second, Chris Henry is not a third string receiver. He's the slot receiver in an offense that uses quite a few three receiver formations. There's a big difference there.

I didn't type any of the netted notted or knotted stuff. that was the other post... so please, don't give me the credit for such ignorance. I've earned it... just not in that post. The honor goes to GapControl on that one.

Secondly, Henry is not a slot receiver. He is the 3rd receiver, and T.J. is usually the slot receiver in 3 WR sets. So we're both wrong. Where did you go? Harvard? The most expensive, and therefore best school in the country (quote from the Simpsons)

[BTG]

Ha ha ha ha ha.....

I was actually talking about Princeton High School around Cincy, but ok.