hottub Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I don't know how I overlooked it, but I hadn't read that essay until today. What a great job of research and of writing! If anyone else hasn't read it yet, take a minute, look it over, and see if you don't agree.The only comment I'd make is that maybe Mikey's obsession with the superstar quarterback actually goes back to Paul Brown. In his autobiography PB talked a lot about how important a great quarterback is, and he gushed about his favorite (and who can blame him?) Otto Graham. I think Mikey thinks that he's following the great man's example, always searching for the next Otto Graham.Not that that excuses Mikey. A man has to know his limitations, and Mike Brown doesn't seem to. One difference between Mike Brown and Paul Brown is that Paul Brown had "the eye" - the ability to see the football potential in a player - and the ability to draw that potential out. That's why he won at every level, whether he had a superstar QB or not. Mikey and his organization, on the other hand, seems to have very limited ability to judge talent, and almost no ability to draw it out - almost the opposite in fact. One big exception is Jon Kitna. Not that Kitna is an enormous talent, and not that the rest of the Bengals organization helped him succeed. Far from it - short of actually knee-capping him, they made things as difficult as possible. But he himself is one part of the organization (Jim Anderson is the other) who does seem to draw the best out of players. First, I believe he simply wills himself to over-achieve, regardless of whatever happens around him. Second, I believe he's the one who drew out Chad Johnson's potential, and that without him Johnson would have been a bust. Third, I believe that the example set by Kitna and Johnson at the end of the 2002 season, combined with making Kitna the undisputed starter for 2003, helped focus and turn around Peter Warrick, who was on track to also be a bust.But those days are over now. We just have to hope that Mikey, Marvin Lewis, and the lastest version of the Bengals organization can continue and build on what Jon Kitna created out of will-power alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I understand Kirk's allegiance to Jon Kitna, for how he has performed with the Bengals,and his character and leadership.Whether Mike Brown made the decision or not,I'm more willing to take the step forward with Palmer,than to underachieve with Kitna again.when Kitna is hot, he's as good as anyone, but when he's off..he's as bad as there has ever been. Unlike most quarterbacks, especially the elite ones, Kitna has no "middle ground."... He's either all good, or all bad, evidenced by his 20 -1 touchdown to interceptions when we won and 6-15 touchdown to interceptions when we lost. ---At the same time , it's more of a fan' idea to have the incumbent lose out to the young qb, however, it's not the way of the NFL....The NFL has always seemed to push the younger player into the starters role, ready or not. We've given Palmer a year to learn the system, get close to his teammates, and win the coaches over. It's now time for him to produce, and this is the perfect year to do that.Sure we could take a step back in wins and losses, but if Palmer had been thrown to the wolves last season, we may not have seen what the rest of the players would sacrifice to win. Instead of bashing the Palmer decision, lets add grease to the wheel of optimism and let's move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Thanks for the props fellas.I understand Kirk's allegiance to Jon Kitna, for how he has performed with the Bengals,and his character and leadership.This is the misconception. I'm not suggesting Kitna is the best QB Cincinnati has ever seen. I'm suggesting that Kitna, despite his awards and accolades, lost his job because of money and politics. He should have lost his job on his own, but then again, Palmer is supposed to take us to the promise land so I guess I'll wait and see now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 You know if it wasn't for the presence of Marvin, I wouldn't feel any different as I had with any of the previous first round QB's that the Bengals have picked before. He's what gives me the confidence I have in his decision in the starting of Palmer over Kitna. If "LeBlow" was still in charge, my confidence in Palmer would be nil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 You know if it wasn't for the presence of Marvin, I wouldn't feel any different as I had with any of the previous first round QB's that the Bengals have picked before. He's what gives me the confidence I have in his decision in the starting of Palmer over Kitna. If "LeBlow" was still in charge, my confidence in Palmer would be nil! Billy, you hit the nail on the head on why I'm not on the Palmer bandwagon. This I know is true; Brown is still the owner. Brown is still the GM. Brown still has the final say on who we draft. I guess, I'm not as a believer as most, since believing has burnt me many times in 13 years. I just hope that Brown comes to his senses since he is the man that has all final say sos, not matter how much Marvin pushes.Let me say this. I know that Marvin is the head coach and most of you believe he's the light needed to turn this franchise around. But the owner is the same and there is no GM which promotes the suggestion that Brown is still running most aspects of the team. This needs to change if we are to truly believe the Bengals will ever turn it around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 But the owner is the same and there is no GM which promotes the suggestion that Brown is still running most aspects of the team. This needs to change if we are to truly believe the Bengals will ever turn it around. Well here I'm gonna disagree with the "Nations Sensation", and I really don't feel I'm wrong...this time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevnz Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 This I know is true; Brown is still the owner. Brown is still the GM. Brown still has the final say on who we draft. I guess, I'm not as a believer as most, since believing has burnt me many times in 13 years. I just hope that Brown comes to his senses since he is the man that has all final say sos, not matter how much Marvin pushes. Well, I don't think Mikey is the "GM" anymore...I think Marvin has a lot of that now, a lot more than most people think....I mean why wouldn't he? Everyone said that the Bengals are coach killers....Marvin has seen the Bengals ineptitude first hand coaching against them year in and year out....There is no way he would have taken this job and risked everything if he didn't get a lot of say so in running the team...He wanted to be a head coach in the NFL badly but I honestly feel that he wouldn't have taken this job if he didn't get to be The Man..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richmond_mat Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 Let me say this. I know that Marvin is the head coach and most of you believe he's the light needed to turn this franchise around. But the owner is the same and there is no GM which promotes the suggestion that Brown is still running most aspects of the team. This needs to change if we are to truly believe the Bengals will ever turn it around.Knowing this and having a flight from hell home that happened to place me next to a board member of Cincinnati Financial, a fortune 500 company that also has mikey on its board, I took the liberty to suggest that he recomend to mikey that he let katie make all of the decisions. I do agree with the captian in that a stable QB is essential to win consistently in the nfl. But Palmer is the man and I'll get in line behind him as well as try not to be the first to say: "remember Jack Thompson!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 For all that we believe and hope, the GM title does not belong to Marvin. If he wishes it, well then he should have suggested it in his interview. What I truly know is that Marvin is not the GM and the only influence he has is being a head coach. I think Brown (and Blackburn) still have the proper cards in their hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 What I truly know is that Marvin is not the GM and the only influence he has is being a head coach. I think Brown (and Blackburn) still have the proper cards in their hand. That may be true. I get the feeling they confer with Marvin with each and EVERY decision! If they don't, they're fools! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkendall Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 What I truly know is that Marvin is not the GM and the only influence he has is being a head coach. I think Brown (and Blackburn) still have the proper cards in their hand.That may be true. I get the feeling they confer with Marvin with each and EVERY decision! If they don't, they're fools! I hope you're right, because we still have the same front office that promoted the age of helplessism and therefore must safeguard all expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalszoneBilly Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 I hope you're right, because we still have the same front office that promoted the age of helplessism and therefore must safeguard all expectations. Totally and completely understandable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishcovga Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 Pushing Mike Brown to the side : ( like taped to a wheelchair burning down a flight of stairs ) The main reason why I'm a "believer" in what Palmer can accompish, is that, The Game doesn't look to big for him. When I saw Klingler for the first time, He looked like a Deer in headlights. I wasn't sure if it was going to be total devastation, but I had a hunch especially when they gave him Boomer's number !!!Achillies ' Smith was a bad pick from the start. Firstly we were supposed to draft Champ Bailey that year.Then talk swooned to how we could be trying to land one of the top 3 quarterbacks. Then Bruce Coslett goes on record saying that that Smith only had one year and seriously had some concerns about his abilities.And of course Dreaded head Mike Ditka offering us 10 picks to get Ricky Williams at the 3rd spot was just too good to pass up.But back to Palmer, He always looks in control of the game.It's not moving to fast for him. Last year in Preseason when he got intercepted, he didn't walk off the field head down,or eyes kind of like those little things you stick to a dashboard that wiggle around inside.He looks the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted March 14, 2004 Report Share Posted March 14, 2004 I agree with chrish on the subject of Palmer versus out two previous QBs of the Future. Both Klingler and Akili had major flaws coming in that everyone except Mikey appeared to see. Klinger was the product of a run-and-shoot college offense; Akili was a one-year wonder. And neither was a fit for the West Coast-style offense the Bengals then ran. Palmer is a different animal. He'll do fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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