Clayton's possbile Cap Casualties...

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Noone is saying the guys we had weren't ineffective. However, I am saying that we were better off with them than with Sapp.

Sapp is an indy car on blocks. At least our 5 Civics are street legal.

[HairOnFire]

See, I told ya' the Sapp thing was funny. Joisey is pimping the guy like he was a high dollar Indy race car in one paragraph, and then admitting that he hasn't been very effective in the next. And yes, Sapp was more effective last season, but his improvement came only after he proved totally ineffective in the role the Raiders originally signed him to play. No kidding, he gave them absolutely nothing in that first season, right? So in an attempt to salvage the signing they allowed him to return to the same interior only role he had always played in Tampa, thereby improving his individual numbers, but not really helping their defense in the manner originally planned. And again, even with the improved production you have to ask if Sapp is worth 6 million per season.

Then again, why bother asking that question if his current contract prevents you from cutting him?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

See, I told ya' the Sapp thing was funny. Joisey is pimping the guy like he was a high dollar Indy race car in one paragraph, and then admitting that he hasn't been very effective in the next. And yes, Sapp was more effective last season, but his improvement came only after he proved totally ineffective in the role the Raiders originally signed him to play. No kidding, he gave them absolutely nothing in that first season, right? So in an attempt to salvage the signing they allowed him to return to the same interior only role he had always played in Tampa, thereby improving his individual numbers, but not really helping their defense in the manner originally planned. And again, even with the improved production you have to ask if Sapp is worth 6 million per season.

Then again, why bother asking that question if his current contract prevents you from cutting him?

I'll restate that. The Raiders were dumb enough to sign Sapp, an interior lineman, and have him line up in the 3-4 where he was out of position, making Sapp look bad. Then, when they came to their senses and let Sapp play where he had always been effective, he was pretty good again.

The Bengals, who play a 4-3, would have gotten significantly more production from Sapp than the Raiders did because they wouldn't have been stupid about making him play out of position. So this business about Sapp being bad for the role the Raiders signed him to play doesn't affect the argument about whether he would have been good for the Bengals.

I don't know how it's Sapp's fault that he wasn't as effective at a position he basically didn't play. That's the Raiders' fault. I still don't know whether he was worth what he ended up getting, but that doesn't mean he's to blame for the Raiders coaches being idiots.

All in all, I would rather pay $6M for a good player with a cheapo draft pick backup than have 3 $2M scrubs like we do. Of course, I'd rather build through the draft with real players than do either, but we're talking about the lesser of two evils here.

[HoosierCat]

And again, even with the improved production you have to ask if Sapp is worth 6 million per season.

$6 million? No -- but the $5.2 million average he's currently being paid by the Raiders isn't out of line. And doing a quick look back at reports of the deal, he's only actually been handed $9.5 million (a $4.75 million average) over the past two years.

Meanwhile, the Bengals spent $2.2 million (all salary, the final year of his contract, 2004) on Tony Williams and the $3.2 million last season on Robinson ($2.3 million bonus + $900k salary).

So $9.5 million has bought the Raiders one guy who has played in 26 games, with 74 tackles, 7.5 sacks, 1 pick, 1 FF, 1 PD, 2 fumbles recovered. Call that 86.5 "plays," and divide that into the $9.5 million and the Raiders have shelled out about $109,000 per play.

Meanwhile, $5.4 million has bought us 2 guys who played in 16 combined games and got 34 tackles. That works out to about $158,000 per play.

Like I said, the Bengals have a knack for getting the least bang for their buck. Did the Raiders overpay for Sapp? Perhaps. Did the Bengals overpay for Williams and Robinson? Definitely.

[HairOnFire]

See, I told ya' the Sapp thing was funny. Joisey is pimping the guy like he was a high dollar Indy race car in one paragraph, and then admitting that he hasn't been very effective in the next. And yes, Sapp was more effective last season, but his improvement came only after he proved totally ineffective in the role the Raiders originally signed him to play. No kidding, he gave them absolutely nothing in that first season, right? So in an attempt to salvage the signing they allowed him to return to the same interior only role he had always played in Tampa, thereby improving his individual numbers, but not really helping their defense in the manner originally planned. And again, even with the improved production you have to ask if Sapp is worth 6 million per season.

Then again, why bother asking that question if his current contract prevents you from cutting him?

I'll restate that. The Raiders were dumb enough to sign Sapp, an interior lineman, and have him line up in the 3-4 where he was out of position, making Sapp look bad. Then, when they came to their senses and let Sapp play where he had always been effective, he was pretty good again.

I'll restate your restatement. In his first season in black and silver the Raiders didn't come close to getting the player they hoped to get. By all accounts Sapp performed very poorly. So clearly, even if his level of pay is massaged he wasn't worth half the price the Raiders paid. You might even speculate that even after being moved back to his familiar role Sapp won't be worth the amount of pay he'll receive this season. In fact, you've done just that. More importantly, everyone has agreed on that point. So, even if Sapp's improved 2nd year of production is taken into account it's almost certain that he won't be equal to the paycheck he's being given 2 out of his first 3 years as a Raider. Now consider the fact that almost everyone agrees that his contract was a puffed up three year deal, and he'll never play another down for the Raiders if it isn't reworked.

Hardly sounds like a smart FA move, does it? But what about what might have been?

Which sorta begs the question, might Sapp have been worth the price the Bengals offered to pay? Remember, they had no plans to experiment with Sapp's role so it's reasonable to assume that they would have gotten better production both seasons. So the argument can be made that they should have outbid the Raiders. Then again, they sorta did, as the Bengals rejected offer paid out more cash in the first two years than the Raider deal.

So who screwed up? Well, the Raiders obviously did since at best they'll get reasonable value in only one of the three seasons Sapp is likely to be a Raider. And Sapp also screwed up to a degree, since he agreed to play in a scheme that didn't suit his talents, hurting his production and reputation. As for the Bengals, it's hard to applaud the DT moves they made after Sapp refused their offer, but they couldn't force him to sign, right? All they could have done is offer more money to a player who hasn't been worth what he signed for...which was less than they had already offered.

Thus, much laughter....and talk of Honda Civics.

[HoosierCat]

So who screwed up? Well, the Raiders obviously did since at best they'll get reasonable value in only one of the three seasons Sapp is likely to be a Raider. And Sapp also screwed up to a degree, since he agreed to play in a scheme that didn't suit his talents, hurting his production and reputation. As for the Bengals, it's hard to applaud the DT moves they made after Sapp refused their offer, but they couldn't force him to sign, right? All they could have done is offer more money to a player who hasn't been worth what he signed for...which was less than they had already offered.

I pretty much agree with that, except for the second sentence. Based on last year's performance, if Sapp stays healthy the whole year he could put up 50-odd tackles and 8 sacks, numbers that would make him worth every penny.

The Raiders paid the price, at least in 2004, for signing a guy based more on their hatred of Jon Gruden than whether he made sense in their scheme. The Bengals can console themselves that they didn't pay top-dollar for (so far) average to somewhat above-averge production (though that's cold comfort given that they then turned around and paid mid-tier money for virtually no production at all). And Sapp...well, I'm sure his bloated bank account comforts him on those nights when he realizes his "QBKilla" days are behind him.

[HairOnFire]

I pretty much agree with that, except for the second sentence.

Not a problem. In fact, when I write a long post and you only disagree with a single line I always feel like we've both dodged a bullet.

[derekshank]

We can all agree that Sapp, and our 3 DT's all suck. So why are we having this discussion again? If we had signed Sapp, we would have had the same poor production... only with no insurance. But really... this is not a discussion worth having.

It's like complaining about the fact that George W. is the president... when we could have gotten John Kerry. They both are lousy... so it shouldn't be an either/or discussion. It should be a ... I'm glad we didn't get that guy... but we certainly should have done SOMETHING.

[HoosierCat]

We can all agree that Sapp, and our 3 DT's all suck.

Sapp doesn't suck. Based on his numbers last season, were he a Bengal he'd be our best DT certainly, and possibly out best DL.

Williams sucked. Robinson sucks. Sapp's just overpaid.

[Stripes]

I think the correct answer here is somewhere in the middle of the discussion... There should be little doubt that even a washed up Warren Sapp is better than Tony Williams, John Thornton, and Bryan Robinson... but is that saying much?

Sapp would have certainly been some measure of an upgrade for the Bengals, but at the price we'd have paid... I'm glad he went to Oakland.