Mario Williams DE; NC State

[PhunkE1]

The more I watch and hear about this guy, the more I want to see him in stripes. He's going to go within the top 10 picks, and I have a feeling after the combine he'll be a top 5 pick. What kind of package do you think it would take to move up into a position to knab this freak? He reminds me of Julius Peppers when he was coming out.

[Kazkal]

1st + 2nd this year + next year + chad

[PhunkE1]

1st + 2nd this year + next year + chad

Damn, you really think it would take that much to move up and get this guy? I was hoping more like our first round pick and say Chris Perry.

[Whur CHad At?]

Uh. Just No.

Marvin doesn't give up draft picks

[HairOnFire]

Damn, you really think it would take that much to move up and get this guy? I was hoping more like our first round pick and say Chris Perry.

I'm starting to sense a trend.

[DontPushMe]

Uh. Just No.

Marvin doesn't give up draft picks

And you base that off of what? He didnt in his first 3 years because we had so many needs that we needed every pick we could get. Now we are a few players away. Trading up wouldnt be bad if we could get an impact player like Williams.

With that said, trading up for Williams wont happen, because its just too far and would cost too much. But I do agree that it would be great to get him, if i could have any one player in this draft for our team, it would be him.

[HoosierCat]

Damn, you really think it would take that much to move up and get this guy? I was hoping more like our first round pick and say Chris Perry.

I'm starting to sense a trend.

The trouble with the whole "trade Perry" scenario is this:

If, on the one hand, Perry really is the nobody some believe him to be (i.e. an injury-prone, glorified WR who can't run between the tackles), then his trade value is minimal.

If, on the other hand, Perry is is at least a solid starter (or, dare I say it, a budding SUPERSTAR), then trading him plus a first-round pick would probably qualify as a steal for the other team.

And the bottom line is that no one here -- and I would be willing to bet that no one in the NFL -- has any idea which of those scenarios is really the case. Meaning that whichever scenario you buy...probabilities are low that any team is going to touch it, especially for a big move like jumping up into the top 10.

[BengalChamps]

And you base that off of what? He didnt in his first 3 years because we had so many needs that we needed every pick we could get. Now we are a few players away. Trading up wouldnt be bad if we could get an impact player like Williams.

This topic has me salivating. I never really thought trading up was a possibility. But i agree. Just because Marvin never has traded up, doesnt mean he wont. In fact, i think Marvin relishes in being unpredictable. But the price sounds too steep to me. This draft sounds so LOADED, i'd be more willing to give up a pick next year.

To swap first round picks, I couldnt give up more than a 2nd round pick and Perry.

Maybe they would go for CJ to swap picks. That would help us avoid the future contract problems. YOU KNOW THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. Get something for CJ now before he causes future problems.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

How freaking stupid do you have to be to think we are going to trade Chad Johnson, especially after Chris Henry turned out to be a complete idiot.

Chad has shown absolutely NO DESIRE to hold out or cause future contract problems. The ONLY one who has even mentioned it is FANS.

In other words, shut your pie hole if you're that freaking moronic.

[HoosierCat]

Keep it friendly, fellas, we got six long months until the season...

[HairOnFire]

Damn, you really think it would take that much to move up and get this guy? I was hoping more like our first round pick and say Chris Perry.

I'm starting to sense a trend.

The trouble with the whole "trade Perry" scenario is this:

If, on the one hand, Perry really is the nobody some believe him to be (i.e. an injury-prone, glorified WR who can't run between the tackles), then his trade value is minimal.

If, on the other hand, Perry is is at least a solid starter (or, dare I say it, a budding SUPERSTAR), then trading him plus a first-round pick would probably qualify as a steal for the other team.

And the bottom line is that no one here -- and I would be willing to bet that no one in the NFL -- has any idea which of those scenarios is really the case. Meaning that whichever scenario you buy...probabilities are low that any team is going to touch it, especially for a big move like jumping up into the top 10.

I see nothing inconsistent about the idea. The Perry Pimps have offered a plethora of excuses for his play to date, as well as near weekly predictions that..."this is the Game he breaks out." While it's obvious that I find such talk laughable...it's not out of the question that the braintrust of another team would be willing to engage in the same mental masturbation if Perry were offered in trade. After all, Perry has some obvious skills, and a productive college history.

Far more important to me there's also Perry's own explanation from before this last seasons start detailing his health and strength issues and his concerns that he wouldn't be much of a running threat until the following season. Obviously, he was right to be concerned. But if another team had faith that he had finally recovered then the concerns are lessened...if not eliminated. Just look at the new contract Kyle Vanden Bosch signed for proof that a new team cares very little about old injuries suffered in unfamiliar uniforms.

Last, the simple fact that Perry can't unseat Rudi Johnson isn't entirely damning, since Rudi is a young productive power back with plenty of chops. In my opinion any team that was offered Perry in a potential trade would have to consider the obvious wisdom of the Bengals trying to move a valuable but largely unused asset for a dedicated starter.

As for the idea of trading Perry and a 1st round pick for Super Mario, it's not my fantasy but it doesn't seem like the an unfair deal for the Bengals. It takes plenty of draft booty to move up from #24 into the Top 10, right? It's far more likely that a 1st round pick packaged with Perry wouldn't get the job done here. (But it might land a FA like John Abraham.)

Last, I reject out of hand the very idea that Perry is a budding SUPERSTAR, and I don't think I'd care a bit if he went on to become a solid starter for his new team. Why? Well, if Mario Williams was actually fulfilling his vast potential in a Bengal uniform I could very easily justify the cost.

[HoosierCat]

I see nothing inconsistent about the idea.

Well, is our No. 24 and Perry are enough to jump up high enough to get Mario Williams? I would -- and will - argue that implies the belief that Perry is an exceptional player. Yet you (among others, I'm not looking to call you out sppecifically) would say he isn't. If he has trade value it's because he's good; if he's junk we'd be as well off offering Matthais Askew in the deal.

Last, I reject out of hand the very idea that Perry is a budding SUPERSTAR, and I don't think I'd care a bit if he went on to become a solid starter for his new team. Why? Well, if Mario Williams was actually fulfilling his vast potential in a Bengal uniform I could very easily justify the cost.

Well, before we toss Perry in the crapper, let's take a step back and look at some numbers. Last season, Perry had 279 rushing yards, and 328 receiving yards (597 total). Now, for a third-down/change of pace guy, that's pretty good; for comparison purposes, our former third down guy Brandon Bennett's best year featured 324 rushing yards and 168 receiving (492 total). So basically, Perry did better in his first year than Bennett ever did. If you believe that the Bengals drafted Perry specifically for that 3rd down role, well, it seems they made a pretty good choice. If they then go and trade him...now we have yet another hole to fill.

And that hole starts to get larger when you look around the rest of the offense. Losing Perry means we lose a guy who contributed 597 yards and 2 TDs on 102 touches. Matt Schobel's all but gone, too. Chalk off another 193 yards, and a TD, on 18 catches. Chris Henry appears to be headed for a suspension at best, if Marvin doesn't kick him off the team, and may end up sitting in jail. There goes another 422 yards, 6 TDs and 31 catches. And then there's Kwash, an RFA who contributed 10 catches, 101 yards and a TD.

Add that all up and you're looking at 20% - 24% (depending on whether you look at receptions/carries, TDs or yards) of the offense going poof between now and next season.

No...I have a hard time justifying dealing Perry. We already are looking at holes at TE and WR on offense. We have a hole at SS, one opening rapidly at CB, one (or 2) that have been there forever at DT, and what we are talking about here is filling a hole at DE by giving up a 1st and opening a hole at backup RB. Even if all Perry ever is is the best 3rd down/change of pace guy we ever have, I'm not up for that. If you want a DE that bad, wait until Hali or Kiwanuka falls to 24, one of them looks to be there.

[Kazkal]

How freaking stupid do you have to be to think we are going to trade Chad Johnson, especially after Chris Henry turned out to be a complete idiot.

Chad has shown absolutely NO DESIRE to hold out or cause future contract problems. The ONLY one who has even mentioned it is FANS.

In other words, shut your pie hole if you're that freaking moronic.

I hope this isen't aimed towards me... if it is i'll have to break out the sarcasim smiley...the reason I put chad on list is because there is no chance in hell we move that far in the draft because the price would be unreal.....back on topic only way I see bengals trading up for him is somehow he feel around 15 even then thats 9spots so probbley still cost a freaking alot

[kurgan74]

I do not believe Mario Williams is a possibility. However, his running mate Manny Lawson

could be a distinct possibility. Lawson is shooting up draft boards similar to the way DeMarcus Ware

did last year. Manny Lawson is as impressive. if not more so, on tape as Mario Williams.

Lawson is now being projected anywhere from mid first to late second rounds.

[schweinhart]

I do not believe Mario Williams is a possibility. However, his running mate Manny Lawson

could be a distinct possibility. Lawson is shooting up draft boards similar to the way DeMarcus Ware

did last year. Manny Lawson is as impressive. if not more so, on tape as Mario Williams.

Lawson is now being projected anywhere from mid first to late second rounds.

Gotta think the Bengals would have to trade to #5 to snag Super Mario. Even though the Pack do need an RB , I don't see a trade for Chris Perry in the works, mainly because the Bengals probably will need Perry to have a big year this year -- maybe even on the verge of SUPERSTAR.

Lawson could be a distinct possibility for the Bengals at #24, especially if more 3-4 looks are in the defensive future. Even without more 3-4, it'd be great to get some more speed rush off the edge from somebody -- anybody.

[PhunkE1]

It looks like I opened a whole new can of worms mentioning Perry in a trade. It was just an idea of a package that might get us into the top 5 picks. I like Perry, and think he's going to be a top level starter at some point in his career. I figured he's the guy that would have the most value to another team, and is somewhat expendable to us. I agree that losing Perry would hurt the Offense as a whole, but I really think Mario is going to be a special player in this league. He's got the kind of size and athleticism that doesn't come around that often. Marvin knows we're really close to getting to where we want to be. Maybe he'd be willing to pull the triger to get this FREAK!!!

[BengalChamps]

How freaking stupid do you have to be to think we are going to trade Chad Johnson, especially after Chris Henry turned out to be a complete idiot.

Chad has shown absolutely NO DESIRE to hold out or cause future contract problems. The ONLY one who has even mentioned it is FANS.

In other words, shut your pie hole if you're that freaking moronic.

I hope this isen't aimed towards me... if it is i'll have to break out the sarcasim smiley...the reason I put chad on list is because there is no chance in hell we move that far in the draft because the price would be unreal.....back on topic only way I see bengals trading up for him is somehow he feel around 15 even then thats 9spots so probbley still cost a freaking alot

This may be aimed at me. I'll just let it go and say this: If you think Super Mario is a future perenial pro-bowler, (I dont know whether he is or not) then he is worth more than CJ or CP. Pro-bowl DE have a bigger impact on the success of a team than a 3rd down back(no matter how good his numbers are). And I would rather have a pro-bowl DE than a pro-bowl WR(CJ).

If he turns out to be another Reggie White, I would send CJ in a trade.

[Kazkal]

if we lost CJ we'd have a losing record next year,mybe different if we had henry sense we'd still have 2 good wideouts but we'd only have 1

[kingwilly]

I would not send CJ in a trade. His proven productivity (first downs and TD's) and disruption to an opposing D is not worth a potential Pro Bowl DE.

Ask youself if you'd trade CJ for a guy like Jason Taylor or Julius Peppers....? No.

Now, CP is an entirely different matter. He does have decent productivity for the action he sees. but unless a team was convinced he could be there all-around RB, then I don't think anyone could be baited into a deal, unless it was one that put the bengals on the short side of the stick in terms of current value vs potential value.

[Stripes]

If you think Super Mario is a future perenial pro-bowler, (I dont know whether he is or not) then he is worth more than CJ or CP.

Be careful with those initials!!! There's another CP on this roster, and at first I thought you meant him!

I hope this isen't aimed towards me... if it is i'll have to break out the sarcasim smiley...

[HoosierCat]

I think the eaiest way to think about Chris Perry is via ye olde trade value chart, an example of which can be found here:

http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/pick_value_chart.htm

The idea is, if you want to move up from, say, 24th to 10th (which is about what it would take to get Williams) you have to put together a package worth as many points as the 10th pick.

On this chart, that's 1,300 points. Our 24th is worth 740, so we need another 560. Is Perry worth that? Unlikely. Take, for example, the swap we did a couple years ago for Deltha. We had the 17th pick; Denver gave us the 24th, their 4th, and O'Neal. Denver's picks alone equaled 808 points, so Deltha was "worth" 142 points in that trade. And that's for a guy who at least had 1 pro bowl season to his credit. Perry has one season as a solid No. 2 and another with the famous "two carries." Is that going to bring value equal to the No. 2 pick in round 2? Even I -- a Perry supporter -- can't argue Perry has justified that.

Bottom line for me is simply that it's tough to see Perry playing a significant part of any trade deal.

[ArmyBengal]

I think the eaiest way to think about Chris Perry is via ye olde trade value chart, an example of which can be found here:

http://www.nfldraftblitz.com/pick_value_chart.htm

The idea is, if you want to move up from, say, 24th to 10th (which is about what it would take to get Williams) you have to put together a package worth as many points as the 10th pick.

On this chart, that's 1,300 points. Our 24th is worth 740, so we need another 560. Is Perry worth that? Unlikely. Take, for example, the swap we did a couple years ago for Deltha. We had the 17th pick; Denver gave us the 24th, their 4th, and O'Neal. Denver's picks alone equaled 808 points, so Deltha was "worth" 142 points in that trade. And that's for a guy who at least had 1 pro bowl season to his credit. Perry has one season as a solid No. 2 and another with the famous "two carries." Is that going to bring value equal to the No. 2 pick in round 2? Even I -- a Perry supporter -- can't argue Perry has justified that.

Bottom line for me is simply that it's tough to see Perry playing a significant part of any trade deal.

Dang Joisey, that was one of the most informative and best analysis of a specific situation as I've seen on here... Thank you...

WHODEY !!!

[HairOnFire]

As for the idea of trading Perry and a 1st round pick for Super Mario, it's not my fantasy but it doesn't seem like the an unfair deal for the Bengals. It takes plenty of draft booty to move up from #24 into the Top 10, right? It's far more likely that a 1st round pick packaged with Perry wouldn't get the job done here.

Sorry Joisey, but you can't imply that I'm overvaluing Chris Perry when I'm the guy who wrote the above. All I'm saying is that such a trade wouldn't be unfair to the Bengals, and if it fell short for the other team it probably wouldn't be by much. In fact, I think your own trade value chart backs me up.

BTW, signing Kenny Watson, if he's healthy, very easily fills the hole that would be created by moving Perry.

[kingwilly]

I do not think Watson is in the class of Perry, talent-wise...Watson has the injury hanging over his head as well..

I do not see them moving Perry in any scenario...

[HoosierCat]

As for the idea of trading Perry and a 1st round pick for Super Mario, it's not my fantasy but it doesn't seem like the an unfair deal for the Bengals. It takes plenty of draft booty to move up from #24 into the Top 10, right? It's far more likely that a 1st round pick packaged with Perry wouldn't get the job done here.

Sorry Joisey, but you can't imply that I'm overvaluing Chris Perry when I'm the guy who wrote the above. All I'm saying is that such a trade wouldn't be unfair to the Bengals, and if it fell short for the other team it probably wouldn't be by much. In fact, I think your own trade value chart backs me up.

Fair enough. I'm not looking to get into the Perry thing again, and in any event you're right, we seem to agree that any trade value he'd have would best be termed peripheral at this point in his career.

BTW, signing Kenny Watson, if he's healthy, very easily fills the hole that would be created by moving Perry.

I don't agree...but I will say only that the greater issue is that the Bengals don't appear to agree. Had Watson been sufficient in their minds, I don't think they would have burned a first on Perry. So trading him would very likely mean that a pass-catching RB jumps back to the top of their wish list. So we would very likely end up back at square one, if not this April then next, watching the team use a high draft pick at RB.