Justin Smith Is Worthless

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I don't mean to cut into all the feel-good scenarios here - but am tired of this particular player to the point that I feel I have to say something for all the Justin Smith fan boys out there.

I noticed how poor Smith was yesterday and the week before - he did have a tipped pass and somehow got credit for half a sack - but other than that he had 1 tackle all day long and was wiped out by Cleveland's RT.

Don't let the "hustle" factor fool you - jumping on tackles 5+ yards downfield isn't really a DE's job.

He never makes a big play - rarely if that, and never beats his man with a move or speed and gets a tackle for loss - some of it is scheme, but most of it is lack of ability.

Has only one or two good games a year seemingly.

Don't give me this "well he provides constant pressure and re-routes Qb's" - he does none of that.

I think Geathers is a better DE than he is at this point.

I thought he was a FA at the end of this season but am thinking it's after 2006.

I would hope Marvin eyes a replacement for him in the offseason in the draft or elsewhere - and that somebody is competing for his job.

I really am tired of the poor defense here, and I think he is a major culprit in containing QB's - sacks - pressure - and stopping the run. He is not good at anything in particular, and has always been a tweener.

It's time for the Justin Smith era to end after this season - that said i sure as hell hope he steps it up and proves me wrong the rest of this year, even if it's just for a game or two.

But outside of that, I would be happy to see the beer guzzler and his Anheiser Bush tattoo head to another city asap.

He's just not that good and has never come close to living up to his draft status.

I am truly tired of watching him do squat every week.

[walzav29]

When his contract is up, Marv will let him go. It's simple. They need more production out of that position. I'm old fashioned. I believe that DE's should get sacks.

[greenday333]

wow im glad someone else feels the same way. he was the fourth overall pick in the draft. what a bust. dwight freeney was an 11th pick and look at him. the only problem with letting him go is that i think that marvin lewis really likes the guy. i heard this somewhere. ill be happy to keep him as a reserve. but he should not be starting in the NFL.

the draft picks since marvin lewis has gotten here have been a whole hell of a lot better than before him.

(Peter Warrick, Justin Smith, Akili Smith, do i have to go on)

[kingwilly]

Maybe he's just being use improperly.

Justin in an underachiever at DE. But with his motor and instincts, why has he not become a LB in a 3-4 scheme?

Seems to me, on any given play he has the speed to chse the play, sometimes catching people form an angle to make a downfield tackle form across the field. He may be an average end but could be a very good LB in a a 3-4.

Just a thought.

[walzav29]

I just don't understand the logic of thinking we don't need a pass-rush. Lord knows I root for JS, it just seems that he is more of a situational run defender. Who sometimes doesn't stop the run.

[DontPushMe]

Maybe he's just being use improperly.

Justin in an underachiever at DE. But with his motor and instincts, why has he not become a LB in a 3-4 scheme?

Because hes on a team that runs a 4-3?

[Whur CHad At?]

Yea JSmith is a hit or miss guy. He will play well one game and suck the next.

I agree let him go only when his contract is up and sign Abraham.

[JPW]

I disagree ...

While Justin Smith certainly has not lived up to his draft slot, IMO he is an above average defensive lineman.

He gets into the back field and puts pressure on a lot more than people seem to notice and that's the way our defense has played this year, not many sacks but a fair amount of pressure and then count on the ball-hawking DBs to get the job done.

Anyway, it is not like we are so over-loaded with great defemsive lineman that we could afford to just cut him.

He is signed through 2006 so I would say that we will be keeping him for at least one more season.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

K, glad i'm not the only one who sees him lagging behind every play and never getting near the QB anymore.

I swear i've watched this team on tape and like focusing on particular players - Geathers at least gets a sack or TFL or two every game it seems and is constantly getting FREE of lineman and chasing people down.

I don't think Smith has the change of direction or speed to play OLB here. He also can't seem to get free of lineman and gets engulfed and tries to muscle everyone - he's too small for that. I see better pass rushing moves out of Pollack already.

I also don't ever see Justin doubled-teamed that often anymore.

I swear Geathers and Pollack are both better players already at this point.

It's not that Smith is a "horrible" player, just not a very good one - his tenacity is noted and respected - his complete inability to produce big plays is my biggest problem with him.

Just sick of watching him do the same thing every single play and the defense get run over repeatedly - it's been a problem since he's been here and don't see him as part of the solution, rather part of the problems.

[kingwilly]

Clearly in a 4-3 scheme, he does not get consistent pressure on the QB yet he has enough steam to rush a play and then chase down the field, often making tackles. Sounds like what a LB does to me!

In a 3-4 He could set up in the middle on the weak side and clog the gap/beat the block and make a tackle plus it could put his pursiut to better use.

OBVIOUSLY a 3-4 requires a player who can play int he middle over or around the center...which we may have in a guy like SHaun Smith...and it takes depth at LB which I think we have. In that scheme Geathers, Powell, Clemons and Fanene can rotate pending down and distance. Thotnton can take a walk. If Askew could ever grow up he also may be a decent guy over the middle.

Again, all for the sake of conversation, but there has to be a way to get more out of Justin and the way i;m thinking is getting him off the line and letting him use his agility and intinct in space more.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I disagree ...

While Justin Smith certainly has not lived up to his draft slot, IMO he is an above average defensive lineman.

He gets into the back field and puts pressure on a lot more than people seem to notice and that's the way our defense has played this year, not many sacks but a fair amount of pressure and then count on the ball-hawking DBs to get the job done.

Anyway, it is not like we are so over-loaded with great defemsive lineman that we could afford to just cut him.

He is signed through 2006 so I would say that we will be keeping him for at least one more season.

But this is what we hear all the time - I'm not sure what justifies him as an above average DE in this league - what has he done to deserve this status? 2-4 sacks a year? A lot of meaningless pile on tackles? He probably wears himself out stupid running around like he does every play....when he doesn't have to.

He NEVER re-routes QB's or collapses a pocket - can't handle NFL RT's due to his size - doesn't get free of lineman - rarely makes big plays - Geathers makes more plays behind the LOS than he does....

All I do know is that the defensive front has been a big problem here for years now - and he is the one constant there.

There are plenty of DE's in the NFL who get sacks and hurries/pressures on their own - they don't have to be involved in a stunt/blitz scheme to do it - Smith NEVER does that seemingly.

Smith has tenacity and some good speed and strength - but he has never put it all together and has never come close to achieveing what the bengals thought he could.

I would just like to see a change or at least some competition at that position for once - nothing should be handed to Justin Smith after this season at all.

Against, just MO.

[membengal]

I happen to like the effort Smith gives, and think he does just fine given the lack of help he has had for years on the D-line.

shula, I think you are a little over-the-top on your hyperbole that he "never" collapses a pocket etc. as it was his sack that ended the Pittsburgh game last week.

Smith also had a great game against Indy as I recall. Look, he isn't Dwight Freeney, then again, Smith will defend the run, which Freeney won't. I actually want to see his contract extended.

[HairOnFire]

Wouldn't it be nice to read criticism of Justin Smith's play that was built entirely around the fact that a couple of years ago he was the 4th pick in the draft? Wouldn't it be great if he were compared to the players the Bengals could have drafted with that pick instead of other DE's who were high picks in other drafts? Wouldn't it be great if Smith weren't compared to players the Bengals have had no opportunity to sign? Yeah, Freeney and Abraham ARE better. That said, so what? Do you have a point to go along with the whining?

Want a studly pure pass rushing DE? Well cross your fingers and your toes and hope the Bengals actually draft one this year instead of a backup RB who has somehow managed to become a fan favorite despite his unjustifiable draft position. Yeah, go figure.

BTW, Charlie Frye threw one stinking interception in yesterdays game, right? So watch a replay of that play and tell me which Bengal was putting heavy pressure on the QB? Look closely and you'll see a tatooed arm inches from a geeked Charlie Frye. Not enough you say? Well, Smith managed to get a sack on another play. Granted, he had to share credit with the two Bengals who reached the QB before he hit the turf, but I'm not faulting Smith for that. And Smith managed to get a sack last week, right? So did you cheer after that play or did you whine that it didn't matter because it came on the last play? I'm guessing that most of you managed to have it both ways. As for the crappy run defense, the Browns averaged 3.2 per carry, and gained less than 85 yards on the ground all game long. Isn't this what you guys wanted?

Frankly, why are we having this conversation today?

[membengal]

Hair:

Huzzah!

[Spain]

Guys this is late coming , now the guy is starting to put it together you want to cut him. The truth is that those other defensive lineman that get sacks have pressure coming from the other part of the front four. If the QB just has to worry about him beating a doulble team he doesnt have to move . The DTs cant collapse the pocket. This is a team game and J Smith is doing average with no help. Do you know why he has had good games these last weeks. Its because water boysheat from the other side. Hell he isnt an underacheiver he has had respectable years here however you have to think of it like this what could Palmer Do with out the boys up front. He would have some bad days.ç also. Marvin is high on this guy for a reason. If you look back at his rookie season he had a great year. Why because he had help on the pass rush. This is the first time he has had help. If he cant do it next or the end of this year as Water Boy catches on then he might go. However he has been playing very well as of late. So you guys just might as well get use to him because he is here to stay. Marvin says so.

[Jet23]

It seems to me that if our tackles could get any type of push, things may open up a bit for Smith. He does seem to get swallowed up at times. I can live with our Ends, DT is our most pressing need. How long is Askew going to waste a roster spot? JT?

As far as the crack about Perry. When they drafted him in the first round, I truly believe they had no plans of signing Rudi to a long term deal. Perry's sport's hernia is the reason Rudi was given his deal. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise, because Rudi is on a flipping fire!

[Section 310]

Smith got b*tch slapped all day long by the Steelers in game one. He routinely gets pushed off the ball by TE's and/or OT's. His strength is back side pursuit when the rush is away from his side. Overall he is a serviceable DE...not great...not terrible...a bust at #4 overall.

But hey, at least the guy can wrestle...per Tim Krumrie.

[HairOnFire]

It's pretty funny that after the game we just watched this board now boasts threads entitled "Justin Smith is Worthless" and "Dear Jesus. Thank You for Carson Palmer".

Sorta makes you wonder which player had a truly miserable game, doesn't it?

[ahanes]

Smith isn't worthless, but the Bengals shouldn't overpay to keep him either. I think resigning Levi Jones and Eric Steinbach will both be higher priorities than Smith. Hell, I'd probably hope the Bengals give Willie Anderson another big payday for all he's done for this team plus the high level he is still playing at. So I wouldn't be surprised to see Smith out of here.

[kingwilly]

I don't really hear anyone saying he is worthless.

I think he has underperfomred a bit based on his hype and where he was drafted and what he's been paid. Maybe not as bad as a "Reinard" but he is basically an "average" DE.

We all have our ideas about what he does well and where he may lack but no one is saying he is worthless.

[bengalsLB]

Who has back side contain in our D cause every run play i see smith crash down the line and not worry about containing the runner

[HairOnFire]

I don't really hear anyone saying he is worthless.

We all have our ideas about what he does well and where he may lack but no one is saying he is worthless.

Perhaps you overlooked the title of this thread?

[Kirkendall]

Top sack leaders

Derrick Burgess 13 - Oakland. Their record: 4-9

Kyle Vanden Bosch 12.5 - Tennessee. Their record: 4-9

Osi Umenyiora 12.5 - NY Giants. Their record: 9-4

Robert Mathis 11.5 - Indy. Their record: 13-0

Michael Strahan 11.5 - NY Giants. Their record: 9-4

Aaron Schobel 10 - Buffalo. Their record: 4-9

Combined record: 43-35 translating to a .551 winning percentage.

Bengals record with sack-master Justin Smith (with 5): .769

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Top sack leaders

Derrick Burgess 13 - Oakland. Their record: 4-9

Kyle Vanden Bosch 12.5 - Tennessee. Their record: 4-9

Osi Umenyiora 12.5 - NY Giants. Their record: 9-4

Robert Mathis 11.5 - Indy. Their record: 13-0

Michael Strahan 11.5 - NY Giants. Their record: 9-4

Aaron Schobel 10 - Buffalo. Their record: 4-9

Combined record: 43-35 translating to a .551 winning percentage.

Bengals record with sack-master Justin Smith (with 5): .769

Who's arguing that it's all about sacks? (at least I didn't)

He isn't a difference maker, not an impact player, hasn't had a sack in 7 games this season, and only a half sack in all of the 3 losses combined. Isn't that what a #4 over-all pick does? Makes an impact? Is a Pro Bowler at least once? Does something noteworthy once in a while?

He's had time to improve his game, and he is playing at his ceiling right now.

Just sucks we will probably have to watch him for another whole season - not a bad guy or a bad player - just tired of the same old, same old from him - not showing any of the #4 over-all potential - and THAT is what we were supposed to get when we picked him.

Instead we got an average 3-down player for the duration of his contract. If he were drafted in the 3rd or 4th round I probably wouldn't be complaining about it.

Just want someone with more short and long term potential in his spot.

I will end my ranting at that - i feel better now.

[CantStop85]

Maybe he's just being use improperly.

Justin in an underachiever at DE. But with his motor and instincts, why has he not become a LB in a 3-4 scheme?

Seems to me, on any given play he has the speed to chse the play, sometimes catching people form an angle to make a downfield tackle form across the field. He may be an average end but could be a very good LB in a a 3-4.

Just a thought.

BINGO. Justin Smith is just begging to be a linebacker. I believe he is cut from the same mold as David Pollack...although I think Justin Smith could excel as an ILB in a 3-4. I'm not saying we should run a 3-4, I'm just saying that's how he would be best utilized.