Justin Smith

[Ænigma]

Not sure if he has already. If he doesnt get resigned we lose one of our decent defensive players. Which with what we have right now isnt good. So what do you think?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Not sure if he has already. If he doesnt get resigned we lose one of our decent defensive players. Which with what we have right now isnt good. So what do you think?

Chris many members here are going to scream bloody murder over your idea, but personally I would have no problem with it.

[whodey_88]

I think it depends on the new coordinator... and what type of defense he will run, 3-4 or 4-3...

[kingwilly]

It is not that most of us "dislike" Justin, it is just that he is not worth what he will be asking for or could probably get in FA for that matter.

I think he is a one--dimensional end who just runs at you all day. This just does not net the pressures or sacks needed to take the pressure off the DB's. He also get out of position and then charges all over the field to get in on a play. Maybe if he was not out of position so much, he'd make plays closer to the line of scrimmage rather than 10-12 yrds downfield. In other words, when your DE is one of the first guys to make a tackle that far downfield he is either being misused in the scheme or is way out of postion.

I am of the thinking that Justin will be allowed to go on to greener pastures. This team simply cannot afford Geathers AND Justin to play so average at their pay rates.

If he is signed, I think he will continue to be a one-trick pony, easily handled by the Tackles in the AFC North and elsewhere.

[BengalszoneBilly]

It is not that most of us "dislike" Justin, it is just that he is not worth what he will be asking for or could probably get in FA for that matter.

I see your point, but the Bengals record on signing such FA's isn't something you can go to the bank with.

[GregCook]

It is not that most of us "dislike" Justin, it is just that he is not worth what he will be asking for or could probably get in FA for that matter.

I see your point, but the Bengals record on signing such FA's isn't something you can go to the bank with.

Wiser men than me have said "you are what your record says you are". Two sacks last year from Justin. $8 million for Jusing.

Fanene could have done that for millions less. Maybe ol Frostee the SnowMan too. Justin is part of Marvin's blowing up. Let him go and use the money to re-sign

Stacy and Landon. Then in the draft, if they have 10 picks, use 6 of them on defense.

[kingwilly]

It is not that most of us "dislike" Justin, it is just that he is not worth what he will be asking for or could probably get in FA for that matter.

I see your point, but the Bengals record on signing such FA's isn't something you can go to the bank with.

What I meant was what Justin will get offered in FA. I have no misconceptions about the FA's this team will attract/sign.

[Ænigma]

Very good point. If it would involve getting rid of justin then go on ahead. But my opinion our offense is fine. Use most of the draft picks on defense.

[Dimster28]

i must be most stupid person in world as seems like i am only one who think sack is nothing important

most good sacker got about 10 to 15 sack a year, it mean less than 1 sack in each game, i rather a guy who can tackles alot than a guy who just can sack once in every game.

for a de who can tackle in deep field, i think thats wonderful, as it mean he dont stay front and give uplike most fat slobs at dl do lol, and he made those tackles which mean our lbs and db obviously failed to do

so i reallllllllyl hope justin smith will stay at bengals, he is very important person to keep

[jditty47]

i hope hes gone next season to be quite honest. for a team with no pass rush, having someone on the right side that doesn't get penatration doesn't help. we have other big bodies that we can throw out there on first and 2nd down, please please give up on him. 8+ million for a guy that isn't really a leader, and he damn sure isn't a pro bowler.

[cincyhokie]

I say no. Not because Justin isn't a decent player. He is. This team needs a new look. Justin Smith has been here since 2001. We've seen what he brings. It's time to move on and build this defense from the ground up. I really think we can get his same production from somewhere else and save that money for other needs. Good luck Justin, you're a hard working dude......who makes alot of tackles downfield.

[Dimster28]

he is probowler if people know how to vote right way, instead of vote for whoever have most sacks, he have 3rd most tackles of all DL in whole nfl this year, still unimpressive????

[jditty47]

i never said he can't play. my point was hes not an IMPACT player. hes shown us what he'll give.

[Kazkal]

I would be happy to keep smith for a fair deal,But even if we keep him we need a young speed guy to help out on passing downs.

i must be most stupid person in world as seems like i am only one who think sack is nothing important

High sack numbers can be overrated but you still want ends to bring pressure on the QB,Justin seems to have a problem doing that on constant basis but I doubt you'll find many Dline who take 95-97% of defensive snaps....If we did keep him I'd say find a guy in area rnds 3-5 who is just pure speed off the edge ala mike anderson / elvis dumberdill(sp?) and just put em in on 3rd n long and sometimes long 2nd downs.

[redsbengalsbucks]

i must be most stupid person in world as seems like i am only one who think sack is nothing important

most good sacker got about 10 to 15 sack a year, it mean less than 1 sack in each game, i rather a guy who can tackles alot than a guy who just can sack once in every game.

for a de who can tackle in deep field, i think thats wonderful, as it mean he dont stay front and give uplike most fat slobs at dl do lol, and he made those tackles which mean our lbs and db obviously failed to do

so i reallllllllyl hope justin smith will stay at bengals, he is very important person to keep

I could not agree more Dimster, it seems as if everyone has forgotten that Justin is the only consistently good DL that has any experience at all. He will be asking for alot, but players with less tackles and sacks demanded and got big contracts last offseason.

[derekshank]

I won't be the most broken hearted Bengal fan if Justin leaves... but he remains the best D-lineman on this team. Kazkal pointed out that he takes the majority of the snaps. This makes it incredibly difficult to get consistent pressure on the QB... because he's getting no rest. But he did have the 3rd most tackles in the NFL among D-Linemen. The next best DE on this team? Geathers, who plays far fewer downs staying fresh, but only managed 1.5 more sacks than Smith... while recording more than 20 fewer tackles. Who is going to play all those downs when Smith is gone? Rucker? A rookie? A free agent? Please.

All I am saying is that none of the D-Linemen on this team played particularly great this season. Is Justin overpaid? Maybe, but the jury is still out for me. He hasn't been given competent help in the middle of the D-Line his entire career. If the Bengals draft a DT with the #9 pick, I think Smith earns that paycheck. Perhaps not with huge sack numbers... But the combination of Smith, Peko, and someone like Sedrick Ellis would free Geathers up to have double digit sacks again... and that would have a major impact on the entire defense, not just Smith. But if you let Smith go, he'll need to be replaced... probably with a rookie - and unless the DT position is improved, he'll produce even less than Smith.

The Bengals have the money, he had a down year statistically. This would be a good time to sign him to a long term contract... but that's just my opinion.

[agreen_112]

I agree with Marvin, this whole thing needs to be blown up. Blow up Justin's contract talks and let him test FA. I don't think he gets a big contract anywhere after recording 2 sacks this year.

[TJJackson]

i must be most stupid person in world as seems like i am only one who think sack is nothing important

most good sacker got about 10 to 15 sack a year, it mean less than 1 sack in each game, i rather a guy who can tackles alot than a guy who just can sack once in every game.

No, as long as JoePong and agreen are here, you need not fear that.

The point you are missing is that the players getting 10 to 15 sacks a year are also getting closer to the QB more often, producing what are called "hurries" or "pressures" which are also good tho not recorded as stats. Furthermore, a DE getting those kind of sacks will often command a double team, which means that other fellows on the line are getting singled and/or the offense has to commit more players to lock, leaving fewer to get out into patterns.

Finally, I'm sure you understand the difference between a tackle for loss (a sack simply being a TFO on a QB) and a tackle 5+ yards downfield. I'd be a lot happier with Justin if more of his tackles were TFOs.

[agreen_112]

i must be most stupid person in world as seems like i am only one who think sack is nothing important

most good sacker got about 10 to 15 sack a year, it mean less than 1 sack in each game, i rather a guy who can tackles alot than a guy who just can sack once in every game.

No, as long as JoePong and agreen are here, you need not fear that.

The point you are missing is that the players getting 10 to 15 sacks a year are also getting closer to the QB more often, producing what are called "hurries" or "pressures" which are also good tho not recorded as stats. Furthermore, a DE getting those kind of sacks will often command a double team, which means that other fellows on the line are getting singled and/or the offense has to commit more players to lock, leaving fewer to get out into patterns.

Finally, I'm sure you understand the difference between a tackle for loss (a sack simply being a TFO on a QB) and a tackle 5+ yards downfield. I'd be a lot happier with Justin if more of his tackles were TFOs.

Stupid? What have I been wrong about? Is Henry still here? Perry? Thurman? Chad? Marvin? Huh? I think your the blindest mofo on here.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

High sack numbers can be overrated but you still want ends to bring pressure on the QB,Justin seems to have a problem doing that on constant basis but I doubt you'll find many Dline who take 95-97% of defensive snaps....If we did keep him I'd say find a guy in area rnds 3-5 who is just pure speed off the edge ala mike anderson / elvis dumberdill(sp?) and just put em in on 3rd n long and sometimes long 2nd downs.

I don't care how many snaps he takes, that just means he sucks more.

Problem is, he can't beat decent tackles 1-on-1, let alone a double team. And against the run, any DC with half a brain knows you beat him with misdirection as he gets himself out of position. Sure he chases the play down 12 yards downfield - but too many times it only got that far in the first place because HE ran out of his gap.

[kingwilly]

High sack numbers can be overrated but you still want ends to bring pressure on the QB,Justin seems to have a problem doing that on constant basis but I doubt you'll find many Dline who take 95-97% of defensive snaps....If we did keep him I'd say find a guy in area rnds 3-5 who is just pure speed off the edge ala mike anderson / elvis dumberdill(sp?) and just put em in on 3rd n long and sometimes long 2nd downs.

I don't care how many snaps he takes, that just means he sucks more.

Problem is, he can't beat decent tackles 1-on-1, let alone a double team. And against the run, any DC with half a brain knows you beat him with misdirection as he gets himself out of position. Sure he chases the play down 12 yards downfield - but too many times it only got that far in the first place because HE ran out of his gap.

I agree 100% and this is why we shouldnot over-spend just to keep Justin. Heck, Justin could go to a place like NO or STL or DET and do quite well in another system surrounded by different players. What is pretty sure is that we will get more of the same, barely average for an r1/4th overall guy, if he stay here as a DE. We will have overspent for the right to keep his averageness.

Now, if we simply look at a player as a work tool, Justin is a hammer trying to turn a screw. I have said over and over I think that JS is misused. I think that his athleticism and motor would serve the Bengals better by playing LB. Sure,he is prettybig but he has shown that he can run all day to try and make a tackle. Now, imagine this as applied from the middle backer spot, where he willl have a head start reading where the ball is going, and won't be chasing from the backfield to catch an RB or TE. Simply put, the guy does not produce what is needed from a DE; contain, control, pressure and sacks. What he does have is this; running around, making plays downfield and general toughness. He is a big, misused, out of position LB trying to impersonate a DE.

We all saw Geathers play LB and do ok with little preparation. Move Justin to backer, especially if we switch to a 3-4, and then we might see some improvement. At the least, this D would have a very different, unpredictable look that would cause problems just from a familiarity standpoint.

Toss Justin outside, Dhani/Odell/Landon/Brooks in the middle and Jeanty on the other side.

Up front, let Peko, Myers, Geathers, Fanaene and other young guys confront the O-line. I think Peko can play NT.

The interchangability of this set-up would create some mis-matches and make a more aggressive blitz package work better, especially from a 3-4.

[Walrus]

I won't be the most broken hearted Bengal fan if Justin leaves... but he remains the best D-lineman on this team. Kazkal pointed out that he takes the majority of the snaps. This makes it incredibly difficult to get consistent pressure on the QB... because he's getting no rest. But he did have the 3rd most tackles in the NFL among D-Linemen. The next best DE on this team? Geathers, who plays far fewer downs staying fresh, but only managed 1.5 more sacks than Smith... while recording more than 20 fewer tackles. Who is going to play all those downs when Smith is gone? Rucker? A rookie? A free agent? Please.

All I am saying is that none of the D-Linemen on this team played particularly great this season. Is Justin overpaid? Maybe, but the jury is still out for me. He hasn't been given competent help in the middle of the D-Line his entire career. If the Bengals draft a DT with the #9 pick, I think Smith earns that paycheck. Perhaps not with huge sack numbers... But the combination of Smith, Peko, and someone like Sedrick Ellis would free Geathers up to have double digit sacks again... and that would have a major impact on the entire defense, not just Smith. But if you let Smith go, he'll need to be replaced... probably with a rookie - and unless the DT position is improved, he'll produce even less than Smith.

The Bengals have the money, he had a down year statistically. This would be a good time to sign him to a long term contract... but that's just my opinion.

Let's look at Smith's rookie year numbers: 53 Tackles, 8.5 sacks, 3 passes defensed and 2 interceptions.

Still think a rookie couldn't replace Smith?

EDIT: I changed the tackles numbers because I added it up wrong at first. I'm a dunce. I still think Justin's best year was his rookie year, 2001. Unfortunately, starting a career off well and tailing off into mediocrity seems to be the MO for many of our defenders, for some reason. Hopefully Hall, White and Ndukwe can all buck that trend.

[HairOnFire]

Let's look at Smith's rookie year numbers: 94 Tackles, 8.5 sacks, 3 passes defensed and 2 interceptions.

So, as a rookie with almost no preperation or coaching, playing in a defensive scheme he hasn't been taught, Smith shows up... clocks in, and immediately produces at the highest level of his career. People, I think that says all anyone needs to know about the way Smith has been used in Cincy. In fact, Marvin, while constantly demanding Smith make more plays, has admitted the Bengals don't use him in the most productive way...just in the manner they need most.

Still think a rookie couldn't replace Smith?

Sorta depends on the rookie, don't you think? Smiths greatest value to this team has never been something that could be measured statistically, and I have little doubt that many of the unappreciated tasks he accomplishes will be missed the moment he's gone.

But it's time.

In fact, in perfect hindsight it's past time. Tagging Smith last season was controversial enough, but could be defended if you believed the Bengals still considered themselves a playoff contender who needed every competent defender they could find. But that description no longer seem to fit, and if a capable replacement could be found...(No easy task)...a revamped defense would be better served by a younger less expensive player.

[kingwilly]

In fact, in perfect hindsight it's past time. Tagging Smith last season was controversial enough, but could be defended if you believed the Bengals still considered themselves a playoff contender who needed every competent defender they could find. But that description no longer seem to fit, and if a capabale replacement could be found...(No easy task)...a revamped defense would be better served by a younger less expensive player.

Yes, yes, and yes.

New DC,New Scheme, New Blood = Fresh Start with legs to get to the goal over time.

[Walrus]

Still think a rookie couldn't replace Smith?

Sorta depends on the rookie, don't you think?

Well, of course. I didn't intend to imply that anybody could come in and perform as well or better than Justin. My point is that rookies can play well and one should not necessarily count on a precipitous drop in production from Justin's replacement, should he arrive as a rookie this year. Justin has been solid but unspectacular. I suppose he probably brings intangibles that will be missed, but I would submit that someone like Thornton brings a whole lot more in that department and therefore will be harder to replace, yet I don't hear many people coming to his defense.