Bobby Taylor leaves PBS w/out a deal...

[Bengals44]

Bengals.com just posted this... It seems that his agent thinks he can get more money from the 'Skins - why not, everyone else does... Taylor’s agent said that he will not play for 2.5 mill/yr. and said that the Bengals indicated that they are limited $$-wise, so he left PBS w/out a deal... I would love to sign a CB, but I love the fact that Marvin will not overpay - in the long run that will make The Big Orange Machine roll much better... I still hold out hope, but there are other holes we can fill at descent prices - overpaying is always a bad idea when you have to deal w/ the cap... Marvin is smart, yes it is frustrating and certainly tests ones patience, but it is the correct approach in the long haul...

[chrishcovga]

I agree, Players coming to cincinnati , already know what the cap situation is. If they are serious about willing to play here, then just defer money like everyone else. However that's not today's nfl. The fact is the only guaranteed money is the signing bonus, so that's what players are holding out for.

----Lional Dalton is nothing more than a wave player.. and

----Patrick Johnson , won't give us more than what Kevin Walter will.

----No matter what happens with the corner situation in FA, defensive line should be our first concern. We need some size and quickness to stop the run. Our secondary can be helped with a guy or 2 later in the draft anyway.

[Kirkendall]

Bengals.com just posted this... It seems that his agent thinks he can get more money from the 'Skins - why not, everyone else does... Taylor’s agent said that he will not play for 2.5 mill/yr. and said that the Bengals indicated that they are limited $$-wise, so he left PBS w/out a deal... I would love to sign a CB, but I love the fact that Marvin will not overpay - in the long run that will make The Big Orange Machine roll much better... I still hold out hope, but there are other holes we can fill at descent prices - overpaying is always a bad idea when you have to deal w/ the cap... Marvin is smart, yes it is frustrating and certainly tests ones patience, but it is the correct approach in the long haul...

Actually, on the other side of this argument, this really disappoints me. First we lost Vincent, then we lost Taylor. Both of these players Marvin couldn't get the deal done with. We missed out on Antoine Winfield, Chris McAlister, Otis Smith, Charles Woodson, Bobby Taylor, Troy Vincent, Ahmed Plummer, Jason Webster, Shawn Springs, David Barrett, and Champ Bailey. Just because we don't want to pay money to a shutdown CB, doesn't necessarily mean we'll be successful; we're again, providing more evident that Mike Brown runs the team and we can't improve at one of our biggest gaps. You want money, drop the damned dead weight.

So far this off-season in regards to FA, I give Marvin and Brown a big ol’ F! How could it be otherwise? I mean seriously, we picked up a MLB that couldn't start -- yes, he was behind Quarles, but Monty Kiffen (whose has a damn good eye for talent) didn't think Webster should start. Then you have Herring, who had a broken arm the majority of last season; and a Marvin-buddy.

Prove to me and the rest of the fans in Cincy, that you have a game plan, TALK TO US damn it!

[jditty47]

yep and i was the first to be disappointed!

We will now take a CB in the first round most likely and a DT in the 2nd. Hopefully by the draft, which is still a full month away, we can get a 2nd for dillon and that way we can get a OG in the 2nd as well.

Our FA has been worthless. We have signed 2 players, 1 coming off an injury and 1 that didnt even start. This FA is even worse than before Marvin was there. hopefully the draft will turn this FA from being a waste to something worthwhile.

[HoosierCat]

Taylor would have been nice...but again, neither he nor Vincent rang my bell. But I have to agree with Kirk on the money issue:

we're again, providing more evidence that Mike Brown runs the team and we can't improve at one of our biggest gaps. You want money, drop the damned dead weight.

It was clear from way before the start of FA that *any* CB was going to cost an arm and a leg; all you had to do was look at what happened last year. And the Bengals didn't drop the dead weight -- specifically Dillon and Kitna.

I'm not saying that they're aren't arguments for keeping both. There are. But the bottom line is that both have been made expendable, and between the two of them we could have signed about any QB short of Bailey.

Timidity gets you nowhere, and the Bengals are being timid. Just restructuring Kit could get you a couple million, that might haver made a difference. Yet they continue to drag their heels, keeping all options (i.e. a trade) open. Re CD, everyone and their mother knows he's gone. Either cut him or trade him for what you can get, and move on, using the freed-up cap space to your advantage. Instead, we sit arouind and do nothing while other teams improve. Question is, is this Mikey being cheap or Marvin being cowardly? Or a bit of both?

[BengalszoneBilly]

Question is, is this Mikey being cheap or Marvin being cowardly? Or a bit of both?

I say NEITHER! These men know things we are not privy to. I believe they have a game plan loaded with contingencies. Like a flow chart. And like a poker game, they must play these cards close to the chest for obvious reasons, which in turn makes it REALLY frustrating for us fans!!

Now is not the time for panic or anguish. Have some faith brothers and sisters for salvation is at hand!!

[Kirkendall]

Yet they continue to drag their heels, keeping all options (i.e. a trade) open.

Yes they do, and in the end, it's going to burn them. Oh wait, it already is starting to.

Question is, is this Mikey being cheap or Marvin being cowardly? Or a bit of both?

I'd say 70% Mikey, 30% Marvin -- only because Mikey is the final verdict in all things related to money. Brown hasn't changed, same s**t different aspect of coaching. If he wanted to, he'd release Dillon and Kitna -- as Joisey pointed out -- and we'd have some money to pick up better than quality FA.

I understand we shouldn't pay as much as most to FA like some of the CB in this FA period, but $2.5 million? We haven't even picked up a single CB. Come on! This is novice, this is school at the NFL elementary level. Damn!

[Bengals44]

This is all Marvin...!! I mean it's not like we are 10 mill under the cap... It's not like baseball where u can spend as much as u want... I honestly believe Mike has nothing to do w/ it - every team is up against the cap... Marvin is just not willing to overspend for anyone and I would think that simply shows his confidence in what he knows he and his coaches can do... He is not going for a quick fix by overpaying, instead he is looking at the long haul knowing that he needs to develop quality and depth at every position... I am as frustrated as anyone, but I believe he has a plan... Look at New England, they never overpay and even cut their veterans who "outprice themsleves" for the team concept... Now I am sure they will pay for Brady when the time comes, but you must pick and choose your battles... At the same time I am certainly worried if we do not sign Taylor, because we will then be looking at basically two rookies (Weathersby and a draft choice) w/ T. James - thats not ideal, but I think we have to let Marvin work his plan...

[CJBestInAFC]

Okay what about having money to possibly sign both Brock Marion and Rogers Becket as our starting two Safeties? I think we can address the other positions of needs in the draft. I also heard a rumor about maybe trading NE first first round pick and their 5th for Dillon and our 4th round pick? Remember this is a rumor from another site and nothing more. What do you think?

[teenbengal14]

i say that would be a great deal then we could get a dt and a cb, and i think we should sign both brock marion and rogers beckett then we could keep rotating in good safeties

[DuffMan]

Okay what about having money to possibly sign both Brock Marion and Rogers Becket as our starting two Safeties? I think we can address the other positions of needs in the draft. I also heard a rumor about maybe trading NE first first round pick and their 5th for Dillon and our 4th round pick? Remember this is a rumor from another site and nothing more. What do you think?

Which first pick? it actually doesn't matter cuse i'd probably take it, but i hate having a round without a pick, especially the first pick of the 2nd day.

[chrishcovga]

the fact that New England has been so poker-faced about aquiring Dillon only tells me that because of the bou-qou amount of draft picks , that they can wait till the last minute to try to squeeze out a Dillon deal.

----however.. if draft day comes, and We still have Dillon.. They're gonna be calling on us to try to move up if they haven't done so already.... to grab Steven Jackson,or Kevin Jones,and Greg Jones.

[HoosierCat]

I believe they have a game plan loaded with contingencies. Like a flow chart.

Oh, I think they have a game plan, too -- my contention is that it is flawed, and the flaws have become evident. So far, two mistakes are clear: First, they should have moved faster and more aggressively to restructure/trade/cut CD and Kitna. If both were cut outright, for example, I believe we'd free up something like $5 million in cap space. Even restructuring Kitna would have likely given us $2 million+. Instead, the Bengals do nothing, claim poverty, and lowball visiting FAs. Damn, but that sounds familiar.

The second mistake was misjudging the CB market. They expected the "price" of a corner to fall as FA proceeded, ignoring the trend from the last several years of greater and greater demand for anything resembling a decent DB. And this they've pretty much admitted.

So now they're stuck. It's possible some other decent CB might come open, but there are still teams like KC, Carolina, DC, and Seattle looking for starting corners, too -- that's a lot of competition, which means that guy will be just as expensive, if not more so, that Taylor or Vincent. The bottom line is, forget a FA CB. And considering that was (and remains) a huge area of need that had been targeted for a FA signing...well, clearly, the plan has failed.

[dcameron]

My whole thing with the issue is, if we weren't planning on spending the money needed to get a quality veteren corner in here then why even cut Hawkins and Burris. Yeah they weren't the two BEST corners in the world, but now were stuck with a decent CB in James... and two unproven corners in Myles and Weathersby. And trying to fill the secondary holes with the draft is gonna do nothing besides give us even more inexperience at the position.

The whole dang process is just frustrating.

[Bobcat Bengal]

I tell you what....for Bengals fans, most of you are sure acting fair weathered....what, youre mad because Eagles CB's aren't signing with us? What, you're mad because top flight CB"s all of a sudden decide not to play in Cincinnati? Gimme a break! I've said this repeatedly, Coach Lewis is gradually changing the face of the Bengals, its not gonna happen overnight either....stop complaining and wait until the draft is over ok?

[Kirkendall]

I tell you what....for Bengals fans, most of you are sure acting fair weathered....what, youre mad because Eagles CB's aren't signing with us? What, you're mad because top flight CB"s all of a sudden decide not to play in Cincinnati? Gimme a break! I've said this repeatedly, Coach Lewis is gradually changing the face of the Bengals, its not gonna happen overnight either....stop complaining and wait until the draft is over ok?

First of all, just because we're fans doesn't mean we have to suck up and praise every decision the team makes. If that's fair weathered in your mind, then fine, I don't care. This is a discussion forum and not a cult to endlessly praise Lewis. If we feel he has blown a call or two, we're going to talk about it; hense the discussion forum.

What's the point if we all say, yes yes yes, that's a great move. BS, if the move sucks, then I'm going to say so.

[redsfan2]

This is a discussion forum and not a cult to endlessly praise Lewis. If we feel he has blown a call or two, we're going to talk about it; hense the discussion forum.

What's the point if we all say, yes yes yes, that's a great move. BS, if the move sucks, then I'm going to say so.

Inhale ............................. exhale. Inhale ........................... exhale.

Now doesn't that feel better ??

Marin inherited a mess and its going to take a wile to clean it up under the best of circumstances. Throw in the occassional loose screw like Dillon and it'lll prolong the agony. Add the fact that Marvin IS human and will screw up form time to time and that drags it out even more. Nobody said this was going to be quick and / or easy.

We were a victim of circumstances with Kitna. Who knew he was going to pull last year out of his butt and put up career numbers ? Problem is that he's still got the rep and that make sit hard for us to deal him for what we think he's worth. Everybody saw what he did last year ............. but he's still Kitna.

Dillon screwed us. Same end result by a different path. Plenty of great years and plenty of misery to go along with it. Everyone is so convinced we'll cut him that we'll be stuck with him till camp and that'll cost us in dealing with fa's.

That's just the way it turns out sometimes .......... it'll take a while ......... that's all.

[JBrooks]

I have to agree that the money issue sounds eerily similar to years past...not paying enough, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't think we can grade this thing yet. Sure, Webster wasn't a starter and Herring was injured last year, but the bottom line is we don't have the inside track. As much as we want to and even with all the stuff you can read online, we don't know jack s**t.

Webster couldn't start for TB, fine. But Quarles didn't do anything worthy of being demoted and when Webster did have a chance to play, he LEAD THE TEAM IN TACKLES FOR 6 GAMES. That's not peanuts in the NFL or on a team with Derrick Brooks, Simeon Rice, Sapp, John Lynch, etc. (And those 6 games were when TB was 3-3, still very much in the hunt, and two of the losses were ridiculous close games). Herring was a starter on one of the best D's EVER!!! So he was hurt. Dude had a broken arm, not torn knee ligaments. And who cares if he's a "Marvin Guy". Didn't we love Marvin a few months ago???

Keep the faith. No grades, or judgements, et all can be made until the season gets going. We're not on the inside. We don't know. We're not even as close to the inside as the "experts" for ESPN, NFL.com, whatever. We ponied up for our kicker, didn't we?

I'll tell you right now, we ain't going to the Super Bowl...this year. But I'll lay money down with anybody right now that we improve on 8-8.

What's all the crying for. Be patient, have faith in Marvin, and pull out those jersey's in a couple months to show pride in Bengal-nation.

[Tiger Stripes]

I have to agree that the money issue sounds eerily similar to years past...not paying enough, blah, blah, blah.

But I don't think we can grade this thing yet. Sure, Webster wasn't a starter and Herring was injured last year, but the bottom line is we don't have the inside track. As much as we want to and even with all the stuff you can read online, we don't know jack s**t.

Webster couldn't start for TB, fine. But Quarles didn't do anything worthy of being demoted and when Webster did have a chance to play, he LEAD THE TEAM IN TACKLES FOR 6 GAMES. That's not peanuts in the NFL or on a team with Derrick Brooks, Simeon Rice, Sapp, John Lynch, etc. (And those 6 games were when TB was 3-3, still very much in the hunt, and two of the losses were ridiculous close games). Herring was a starter on one of the best D's EVER!!! So he was hurt. Dude had a broken arm, not torn knee ligaments. And who cares if he's a "Marvin Guy". Didn't we love Marvin a few months ago???

Keep the faith. No grades, or judgements, et all can be made until the season gets going. We're not on the inside. We don't know. We're not even as close to the inside as the "experts" for ESPN, NFL.com, whatever. We ponied up for our kicker, didn't we?

I'll tell you right now, we ain't going to the Super Bowl...this year. But I'll lay money down with anybody right now that we improve on 8-8.

What's all the crying for. Be patient, have faith in Marvin, and pull out those jersey's in a couple months to show pride in Bengal-nation.

Amen!

[chrishcovga]

The 2nd rule in business is to " Buy low, and Sell high ".. I'd rather have middle tier guys that play their asses off, than a bunch of over the hill over paid over hyped guys that won't make a real difference to our team.

---To me , it's not even a question as to whether or not Marvin could get these guys to come here or not... No sales pitch is gonna work on a 33 year old cornerback that will get over paid to play in Buffalo.

---I think Bobby Taylor isn't as good as Vincent, and should have been offered that type of salary.. if he didn't like it.. go play somewhere else !

[HoosierCat]

We were a victim of circumstances with Kitna. Who knew he was going to pull last year out of his butt and put up career numbers ? Problem is that he's still got the rep and that make sit hard for us to deal him for what we think he's worth. Everybody saw what he did last year ............. but he's still Kitna.

Dillon screwed us. Same end result by a different path. Plenty of great years and plenty of misery to go along with it. Everyone is so convinced we'll cut him that we'll be stuck with him till camp and that'll cost us in dealing with fa's.

That's just the way it turns out sometimes .......... it'll take a while ......... that's all.

Normally, I agree with you, redsfan, but in this case I beg to differ. This isn't a case of "just the way it turns out." It's a case of the Bengals misplaying their cards.

You're absolutely right in your descriptions of CD and Kitna's situations following last season. You (obviously) knew it, I knew it, everyone here knew it, and anyone with a passing knowledge of NFL football knew it. So in January & February, it was time to fish or cut bait.

On Kitna, you either restructure (thus handing him another big bonus) or cut/trade him for whatever you can get. CD is gone, so call around, find the best offer, and do the deal.

Instead, the Bengals' plan appears to have been "do nothing and keep your fingers crossed." Thus $5 million in cap space is tied up in 2 players who aren't supposed to be on the field next year. They let that situation exist on the mistaken belief that corner prices would drop, a dubious if not plain dumb assumption given FA patterns in the last couple years. And for a kicker (pun intended) their gamble on Shayne Graham backfired. They rebuffed his attempts to do a new deal, instead betting he'd get no big offer and they could ink him back here at the minimum. Doh!

None of that is the result of the Bengals being victims or getting screwed. It's a result of their own inaction and misjudgements.

I do like the Webster and Herring signings, both seem to be at least neutral and probably modest upgrades. And I have no real problem with letting b- and c-flight players like Gibson, Goff, Hawkins and Burris go. But you have to replace them, and right now it looks like those replacements will come from either the draft...or we simply exchange them for other b- and c-flight FAs or waiver wire pickups.

[Bobcat Bengal]

[First of all, just because we're fans doesn't mean we have to suck up and praise every decision the team makes. If that's fair weathered in your mind, then fine, I don't care. This is a discussion forum and not a cult to endlessly praise Lewis. If we feel he has blown a call or two, we're going to talk about it; hense the discussion forum.

What's the point if we all say, yes yes yes, that's a great move. BS, if the move sucks, then I'm going to say so.

I'm not praising everything he does first.....I'm saying we still have the Bengals stigma attached, whether we realize it or not. Players want to play for Coach, yes, but they're not gonna take a pay cut just to do so. Now if this were the Patriots or another team, maybe. But we've had one improved season and I think you're expecting WAY too much right now. For Players like Champ and Duece its their market....people were actually suprised and infuriated when he decided not to come here....WTF? Washington had a better Defense than us, he'd just be regressing.....and no offense, he probably wanted to play for a proven winner too...

And all I'm saying is that its not over.....people want FA CB's so badly here, I just can't stand it..I don't want a FA CB, keep those muthaf**kers...D-Line this, D-Line that....yeah, I know...but either way, they're still rookies.....just develop your own CB, both Coach Lewis and Frazier have track records doing this. Instead of paying big bucks to FA's that you hope fit your system, develop our own players, then pay them the money, ala Justin Smith and Chad Johnson.

Its not so much you guys are slamming Marvin, its just you're acting like the sky is about to fall. Last time I checked, FA period was still going on, and the draft hasn't approached yet.

Aight?

[Bobcat Bengal]

Exactly. We are on the outside looking in.....how many of us watch tape of these FA's?

Coach Lewis said when he watched Webster on tape, he couldnt tell him apart from Ray Lewis....I believe Coach Lewis to be a better evaluator of talent than any of us....

[redsfan2]

So in January & February, it was time to fish or cut bait.

On Kitna, you either restructure (thus handing him another big bonus) or cut/trade him for whatever you can get. CD is gone, so call around, find the best offer, and do the deal.

Instead, the Bengals' plan appears to have been "do nothing and keep your fingers crossed." Thus $5 million in cap space is tied up in 2 players who aren't supposed to be on the field next year. They let that situation exist on the mistaken belief that corner prices would drop, a dubious if not plain dumb assumption given FA patterns in the last couple years. And for a kicker (pun intended) their gamble on Shayne Graham backfired. They rebuffed his attempts to do a new deal, instead betting he'd get no big offer and they could ink him back here at the minimum. Doh!

None of that is the result of the Bengals being victims or getting screwed. It's a result of their own inaction and misjudgements.

I do like the Webster and Herring signings, both seem to be at least neutral and probably modest upgrades. And I have no real problem with letting b- and c-flight players like Gibson, Goff, Hawkins and Burris go. But you have to replace them, and right now it looks like those replacements will come from either the draft...or we simply exchange them for other b- and c-flight FAs or waiver wire pickups.

Good points and I agree.

The misjudging of the market on cb's is the Marvin screw up that I was referring to. I hadn't really thought of the Kitna / CD situation in the context in which you put it, but you're absolutely right. The whole thing should have been addressed to coincide with naming Palmer as the starting qb.

Hopefully Lewis will learn from this and not make the same type of mistakes with personell in the future. He does seem pretty quick on hte uptake, so I remain optimistic.

Good take !

[HoosierCat]

Thanks. And your point that Marvin inherited a mess and it's going to take a while to clean up is dead on. The CB situation is a perfect example. As Hobson notes at the very end of his question of the day:

To us, the knock isn’t in this free agency season, but in the decisions not to go for a first-round cornerback somewhere in the last six or so drafts.