Palmer says Colts are soft

[ckj414]

Does Indianapolis still have a school system or did it go bankrupt?

A school system? Who knows, most people I know go to Indy for the strip clubs...

[omahacolt]

i think the colts have been a finesse team the past few years and i dont think much has changed i will reserve judgement for sunday.

that is like saying the bengals have sucked for the last few years so they do now

Good point, but I do see some differences. The Bengals have indeed sucked of late, but to claim they still do suck could be easily debated. There are plenty of reasons one could say that the Bengals do not suck, and those reasons would be tough to argue logically.

As for the Colts being a finesse team, it isn't quite the same story. There are still perfectly logical reasons for fans outside of the Colts sphere of infulence to believe this. Yes, they are running the ball more often than they have in the recent past, but as people have already mentioned here, that is not because of any sort of change in offensive philosophy by the Colts coaching staff. If defenses weren't dropping eight into coverage all the time like they have been this season, then I think there is little debate that Peyton's numbers would more resemble those of last season, and Edgerrin's numbers would effectively look less MVP caliber.

i see your point.

why would we just line up and pound the ball every time. we have wayne harrison and stokley. why not use them. the thing is this year we have been able to just line up and run the ball. of course edge does have it easier because teams frequently drop 7 into coverage. thats not to say though we havent been able to run the ball when we wanted and when we needed to. this year especially we have been converting 3rd and short a lot more frequently by running the ball.

i understand when people think our offense is soft. we can throw the ball and do. we do it often. just watch out calling the D soft because those guys will knock people out every chance they get. the arent the ravens in their prime but they can lay some wood

[schweinhart]

Yeah I'd doubt Palmer was calling the defense finesse, or as the Bowden now in the broadcast booth would say -- fine-esse.

I'll say the Colts D seems most physical at safety.

Seems like Mike Doss was the one who gave Willis MaGahee a knee makeover in college on an absolutely hellacious hit and the hit he had on Culpepper this year put an end to the big man's season. Bob Sanders also is a hard hitter and Marlin Jackson jacks people when he plays.

Quick would probably be the word that comes to mind before physical for the front 7. Not because they're not physical but rather because they are extremely quick. Brackett and June cover a lot of range for LBs and the D-line is as phenomenally quick as they come, not just on the edge but also on stunts. It was impressive to watch them vs. the Pats stunt Freeney at RE with the LDT who crossed closest behind the RDT. That takes more quicks than just Freeney plus a lot of push by the right tackle to keep the stunt from being blown up. All of them on the line have quickness and they'll no doubt rely on it against an O line that has more power than quickness on the whole.

[Stripes]

Seems like Mike Doss was the one who gave Willis MaGahee a knee makeover in college on an absolutely hellacious hit and the hit he had on Culpepper this year put an end to the big man's season. Bob Sanders also is a hard hitter and Marlin Jackson jacks people when he plays.

Not to be picky, but just for clarification... I thought Will Allen (currently with the Bucs) made the hit on McGahee. Also, the Colts haven't faced the Vikings this season, you must be thinking of someone else as for ending Culpepper's season.

I do agree though, both of these players are physical safeties. Doss has been excellent against the run, but I have seen complaints on Colts boards of him getting burned frequently in pass coverage. They are all in love with Sanders and Jackson though. Another hard nosed safety, Jefferson, will likely get some play time (I believe he is listed as questionable though) and if he does, he will split it with Doss.

[schweinhart]

Seems like Mike Doss was the one who gave Willis MaGahee a knee makeover in college on an absolutely hellacious hit and the hit he had on Culpepper this year put an end to the big man's season. Bob Sanders also is a hard hitter and Marlin Jackson jacks people when he plays.

Not to be picky, but just for clarification... I thought Will Allen (currently with the Bucs) made the hit on McGahee. Also, the Colts haven't faced the Vikings this season, you must be thinking of someone else as for ending Culpepper's season.

You're right there. It was Will Allen on MaGahee and Chris Gamble was the one who ended Culpepper's season.

I get the Buckeyes mixed up sometimes, but I got to remember that Mike Doss is the FINESSE player of the bunch

[benglsdrumr]

Seems like Mike Doss was the one who gave Willis MaGahee a knee makeover in college on an absolutely hellacious hit and the hit he had on Culpepper this year put an end to the big man's season. Bob Sanders also is a hard hitter and Marlin Jackson jacks people when he plays.

Not to be picky, but just for clarification... I thought Will Allen (currently with the Bucs) made the hit on McGahee. Also, the Colts haven't faced the Vikings this season, you must be thinking of someone else as for ending Culpepper's season.

You're right there. It was Will Allen on MaGahee and Chris Gamble was the one who ended Culpepper's season.

now if only big ben were to play against chris gamble..

[schweinhart]

I do agree though, both of these players are physical safeties. Doss has been excellent against the run, but I have seen complaints on Colts boards of him getting burned frequently in pass coverage. They are all in love with Sanders and Jackson though. Another hard nosed safety, Jefferson, will likely get some play time (I believe he is listed as questionable though) and if he does, he will split it with Doss.

You know, the closer you look at it the less it looks like it will matter much, for the Colts that is.

None of the safeties are gonna be able to stop Rudi when he gets to the 2nd level unless Mike Doss brings his gun with him (or was that Nick Harper).

Maybe Harper was busted for beating up his wife? I can't remember and proly shouldn't even mention it.

No matter, really, because Harper will get beat up regardless of who he tries to cover.

The Colts on the whole got a fast, active defense with a pair of physical safeties, but not fast, active, or physical enough to keep up with Rudi, Chad, and Housh come Sunday.

[derekshank]

Rudi is a beast... and it's difficult for any safety to bring him down... but rarely do safeties have to bring down a RB alone... and if there is a safety in the league that can do it... it's Doss. He was my favorite Buckeye back in the national championship run. No one wanted to come across that middle on that SOB. He can hit with the best of them.

[Stripes]

The Colts on the whole got a fast, active defense with a pair of physical safeties, but not fast, active, or physical enough to keep up with Rudi, Chad, and Housh come Sunday.

Their linebackers and safeties are sometimes proned to overpursuit (sounds familiar) so that might play into the running game a bit. Perry might be in position to make some nice plays on the outside if the Colts can't make up lost ground quick enough on him. Doss will more than likely play the run while he is in, that being not only his strength, but his only positive period. I expect big things from Housh while Doss is on the field, and big things from Rudi while he is not. The matchups in this game are all relatively basic, so this should open up a good chance for Bratkowski to call a solid game (that isn't overly promising).

[schweinhart]

I doubt Chris Perry can turn the corner on this team and he's still got no business running between the tackles vs. any team. He's got a better shot vs. a 4-3 than a 3-4 but the Colts are proly an even quicker front 7 than the Bears were. Running Chris Perry will be more wasted play calls IMO.

However, Perry should be able to cause a major mismatch in pass coverage regardless of who the Colts have in the secondary. As long as the Bengals use Perry in the Power I w/ JJ and either swing Perry out immediately or put him into motion before the snap, they got something the Colts won't be able to handle because somebody -- Chad, Housh, or Perry -- gets a mismatch. If the Colts play a safety in front of the vertical game to help w/ Perry, one of the WRs gets man and neither Colts CB can handle Chad or Housh (or Henry) in man. Drop a 4th DB back and Perry gets his chance vs. the LBs.

Playing Perry as a single back is a mistake IMO. It will force him into blitz pick up which he sucks at, plus waste his ability as a receiver.

I think there will be many times when the middle of the field will be wide open for the Bengals -- not to pass but rather for Palmer to run. Rather than take a sack or try to roll out when the pressures turns the corner back inside form the edges, Palmers need to know when to step forward and bolt straight ahead. Five or six yards at a time -- he was doing it earlier in the year then stopped. Palmer needs to run four or five times to keep the Colts LBs and safeties on their toes, plus help move the chains.

But on the whole, yes, the Brat plan should take what the Colts D gives w/ 7 or 8 up front, which Palmer will clearly determine based on the personnel...ie..is Doss in or not. Sounds so simple, but it's happened too many times where Brat turns a simple game plan into an opportunitu to out wit himself and sew up a Bengals loss.

[HairOnFire]

I think there will be many times when the middle of the field will be wide open for the Bengals -- not to pass but rather for Palmer to run. Rather than take a sack or try to roll out when the pressures turns the corner back inside form the edges, Palmers need to know when to step forward and bolt straight ahead. Five or six yards at a time -- he was doing it earlier in the year then stopped. Palmer needs to run four or five times to keep the Colts LBs and safeties on their toes, plus help move the chains.

First, great post. I agreed with everything you wrote with the exception above. I'm no fan of Palmer ever running with the ball, and I haven't forgotten the accurate description of what Palmer's attempt to slide looked like just before he was clocked in preseason. Something about him looking like a bag of laundry being thrown down a flight of stairs.

That said, he's one of the most accurate QB's I've ever seen when rolling out so I'm in favor of using misdirection, rollouts, and a moving pocket. But no bootlegs or scrambles please.

[Kazkal]

"“I would look for that kind of guy,” Simms says of Manning. “Who physically and emotionally can just drive the team and the organization. That’s what Peyton does. When the Colts drafted him, right away they knew what they were going to do with him. They were going to build it around him and it was going to be all about him. I don’t get the sense the Cincinnati Bengals are going to live and die and prosper strictly Carson Palmer or the way he acts.”"

I could have swore we were gonna live and die by palmer

"“They’re not similar at all,” Simms says. “Peyton is high energy. He’s a big-time director. Everything just evolves around him and how he sees and reads the schemes on the other side. I think Carson Palmer just runs the offense. He’s been prepared by the coaches and he just does his job. Carson Palmer is a classic thrower. Peyton Manning has worked so hard at it that he’s turned himself into a good NFL thrower.”"

bleh

[schweinhart]

I think there will be many times when the middle of the field will be wide open for the Bengals -- not to pass but rather for Palmer to run. Rather than take a sack or try to roll out when the pressures turns the corner back inside form the edges, Palmers need to know when to step forward and bolt straight ahead. Five or six yards at a time -- he was doing it earlier in the year then stopped. Palmer needs to run four or five times to keep the Colts LBs and safeties on their toes, plus help move the chains.

First, great post. I agreed with everything you wrote with the exception above. I'm no fan of Palmer ever running with the ball, and I haven't forgotten the accurate description of what Palmer's attempt to slide looked like just before he was clocked in preseason. Something about him looking like a bag of laundry being thrown down a flight of stairs.

That said, he's one of the most accurate QB's I've ever seen when rolling out so I'm in favor of using misdirection, rollouts, and a moving pocket. But no bootlegs or scrambles please.

No question Palmer running is by no means the first choice. Finding receivers open obviously is the first choice when Palmer drops back. He's not the most mobile QB (although by no means is he the most immobile either) and he looks like he'd have troubles sliding into second base much less the middle of a football field w/ fast and large defenders bearing down on him to jar his teeth from his gums. He got hat knocked pretty good one game because he didn't get down in time and unless he's worked on this, there's no reason to believe he'll be able to run with any greater sense of self-preservation than before.

And yes, Palmer throws some wicked rope out of the pocket too. So that too would be preferred over sending him headlong into a swarming defense that is closing fast from the fornt and behind.

But here's where a large part of the offense's ability to put points on the board should be decided -- the 3rd downs between 5 yards and, say, 10. In those situations, the Bengals are looking at least at 3 WR sets and a single-back if any. Palmer will be looking dead ahead at a nickel or dime with 6 and at times just 5 in the box. As much as I would prefer to see him find the time to roll out or stay in a well-kept pocket to hit a receiver for the 1st down, I just don't think they can't prepare themselves to take what the Colts D gives them.

So much of what Palmer does will obviously depend on how the Bengals O-line holds up in pass protect as well as how many other bodies (TE and RB) will be needed to stop the pass rush. I've got a pretty good memory of what Freeney did to Ogden last year and Levi is in a major joust all day long just to keep this dude away from Palmer if he draws the one-on-one.

[derekshank]

This whole thread is about Palmer calling the Colts "a finesse team." At first glance, it looks like an insult... but then while watching SNL last night, it dawned upon me. He was simply saying that FINESSE MITCHELL likes the Colts. They are a Finesse team... while the Bengals are more of a Horatio team.

[HairOnFire]

Well the game has been played now so what are the opinions?

I give 'em their due, but that WAS a finess team that beat the Bengals on Sunday.

[Stripes]

I agree, they are finesse. We geared up to stop Edgerrin (stupid) and therefore they threw the ball 40 times. They played zero defense, and had one sack. They are certainly not a physical team, but at the same time, neither are we.

[12th Man]

Check this out! Found it on ebay.

When does that guy go to court anyhow??????

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cincinnati-Who-Dey-Ben...1QQcmdZViewItem