Future of The Bengals

[chrishcovga]

I've been reading all of the posts on this site, and started to garner a sense of what people think about certain players,and our drafts etc... came up with this..tell me what you think.

Starting with players like Levi Jones. Peter Warrick.Carson Palmer.Rudi Johnson.Corey Dillon. the 2004 Draft.

We've talked about before how certain players played beyond their abilities this past year, but with those inconsistencies what could be the fate of...

levi jones... plays well for a left tackle, but gives up too many sacks even before the injuries. Could he be moved to left guard or right guard and Steinbach be moved to the left tackle spot.

Peter warrick....his best year as a pro, but come 2005 he'll be a free agent. Do we spend high money to retain him, if he doesn't reach 1000 yards again in 2004.

Rudi Johnson... Coaches didn't turn the offense over to him when Dillon first went down.Now with his success(albeit-against poor rush defenses (kc. houston. san fran. seattle..we're faced with having to pay him 2 million or more a year to keep him, or do we sign and trade him and keep a very apologetic Corey Dillon.

Carson Palmer....When do we turn our offense and our team over to the quiet kid from souther cal.? What if Kitnas' year wasn't a fluke and like most refurbished quarterbacks of today's game(testaverde,maddox,gannon..etc.) he's just now starting to play his greatest football..?

Corey Dillon...Are we really that mad at the greatest running back that cincinnati has ever had. If Dillon wants to come back, and is apologetic, do we turn our backs on him .?

Defense or bust come the 2004 draft. We need help at every position , and with a defensive minded head coach, how long will it take the players from 2004 turn us into a ravens or bucs type of defense.

Just wanted to stir the pot before the superbowl.Tell me what you guys really think about our longterm goals of these players etc...

[Kirkendall]

Levi Jones - Did give up a few sacks, played well at times but couldn't hold his own against the leagues better ends. I've always thought about drafting a LT in draft (If Gallery (sp) from Iowa is still available), I'd pick him in a heart beat -- but I know he'll be long gone. But if we can't find anyone that's notably better than him then give it another year.

Peter Warrick - For all of his numbers and great game against KC, I think he lacks size and speed to be a top notch receiver -- meaning the #2 WR for this team. I've said this before, but once Washington matures, I think he'll be the #2 guy and Warrick will be gone. As some of you know, I used to live in Minnesota and saw most of Cris Carter's career and Washington reminds me of Carter. Size, stature, character (before Carter became an ordain minister), ability to catch the hard passes; I can't really give hard factual evidence, but Washington really reminds of me Carter. I just hope he can fill the bill.

Rudi Johnson - I think you play this by ear. Offer a small contract and if someone pays an ungodly amount to Rudi, let him go. Plus if we get a great trade offer for Dillon I say, let him go too. I know it's risky letting two quality guys go, but I think it will only help us in the end. We could draft a RB or look towards the FA to fill that void. RBs are a dime a dozen these days.

Carson Palmer - This will draw more debate in this forum. Personally I think you give Kitna the ball; he didn't play bad enough to be supplanted. Put Palmer in when either Kitna goes does or just can't perform like 2003. This way you'll see if Kitna's 2003 season was a fluke and be able to combat it early enough.

Corey Dillon - If Dillon wouldn't have thrown his jersey into the crowd, said repeatedly that he sold his house, did interviews with sports media that he wants to leave over and over again after the season; then I'd be more acceptive of bringing him back. But his career record at Cincinnati -- 34-78 -- doesn't overwhelmingly convince me he's still the answer. We could get someone with half his stature and perform to what the team requires from that position. Personally I think most of us are insulted from Dillon's outbursts as an attack not only to the Bengals but to the fans as well; that's the worst legal crime a sports figure could do to any city.

[AGrizzlyBaer]

.... if we dont let palmer have the ball next season then when will we... i mean come now its like the jets they were desent with testeverde but with pennington they are a much better team

[BengalszoneBilly]

Don't worry much about that Grizzly, to quote Boomer Esiason, "You can't spend $50 million on someone, and keep them on the bench."

He knows it, I know it, I know Mike knows it, and with Kitna's statements about being willing to renegotiate his contract to help out, (which I interpret as a plea to keep him around as a backup QB, and as a moral and mental support for Carson in the role of a mentor, which I think is a very good idea) I'm almost certain the first snap next year will be taken by Carson Palmer.

And with Jon in reserves as a more than capable backup in case the unforseeable happens, I'm very secure with the QB situation for the Bengals.

Now if I only felt nearly as secure with the defensive line...

[AGrizzlyBaer]

yeah i know what you mean, but just give marvin some time

and the defence will be the strongest part of this team

[BengalszoneBilly]

yeah i know what you mean, but just give marvin some time

and the defence will be the strongest part of this team

God I hope your right!

[redsfan2]

Levi Jones - I don't know if I'd say he gave up too many sacks and leave it at that. He had good games and bad like everyone, and the ones where Kitna was getting sacked were also the ones where we forgot that you're allowed to run the ball on any down. Definitely re set the bar for toughness on the team by playing the same week he had surgery. There wasn't anybody who was not going to play after that demonstration. He's also fairly early in his career. He stays where he is for some more ojt, and we get some help for him at the blank hole in the line that had O'Dwyer written over it.

As long as the line plays well, Rudi is a 1000 yard rusher. Is he better than Dillon ?? No. Does that make a difference ?? No. imho, one 1000 yard rusher as good as another 1000 yard rusher ...... kinda like the ton of feathers vs the ton of lead ...... which is heavier ??????? What makes him valuable to Lewis is his attitude ....... especialy when comapred to Dillons. He's one of those guys who will rush every play of a drive down to the 5 yard line ..... get taken out of the game so Jeremi can score the td ........ say it's no big deal when asked about it after the game ........ and mean it. The man is absolutely selfless, and a real tam player, and that is much more rare than 1000 yd rushers these days. Rudi gets his contract. He's earned it and like Kitnas bonus and Chads extension, it sends a good message to the players ....... our own and ones that we may want to bring in.

Warrick - Like you said, he's not a Fa til '05. We've got '04 to find out if this year was a fluke or not. If not he's a great #3 guy and returner ...... if it was a fluke then its time to say enough. At that point, he's had every chance in the book and doesn't even have bad coaching to blame any more.

Corey Dillon - I've been saying since the day of his first outburst that he was gone next season. He pulled just enough crap to keep his name in print, and stopped just short of being hammered by the don't bad mouth mikey clause. Dillon gets no consideration. Dillon gets no benenfit of the doubt. Dillon gets no Bengals jersey next year, and should be told that immediately. Treating him as a non person sends another type of good message to the players. Lead , Follow , or Get the Hell Outta the Way !

Palmer - Palmer starts. Kitna is the back up. I don't doubt that Kitna could do as well this year as last, which means we're about the only team in the league that could count on the back up to win 8 games if called on to do so. Grizzly makes a good point. If you don't let him start now ..... then when do you let him start ?? Starting him after Kitna had a couple of bad games could cause dissension on the team. It could also damage the confidence of Plamer as well as Kitna. In that scenario, how could Plamer be sure that he wouldn't get benched after 2 bad games ?? or 3 ?? . It's better for everyone all the way around to make the switch quickly and cleanly with no recriminations.

Defense - No particulars here, but who among us really thinks that Marvin Lewis will put up with the25th rated defense for another season ????? I don't know exactly what he'll do, but I do know that he'll do whatever it takes to field a top defense again. Everyone in his organization thinks that way too or he would have gotten rid of them by now. And Yeah I think he'd do it in a minute to any of 'em.

[BengalszoneBilly]

RedsFan,

You may want to wait until Rudi is given the same primary back title that Corey had to work with before you conclude of their individual abilities. That's a huge confidence builder, plus he and the offensive line gets used to working with one another, to better know the others tendencies.

[redsfan2]

RedsFan,

You may want to wait until Rudi is given the same primary back title that Corey had to work with before you conclude of their individual abilities. That's a huge confidence builder, plus he and the offensive line gets used to working with one another, to better know the others tendencies.

That's a good point about Rudi and the line getting used to playing together, and to tell the truth, that hadn't really occurred to me. Confidence never struck me as one of Rudis weaknesses though. A couple of times he told reporters that he knew what he could do, he just needed the chance to show everyone else. He didn't come across as cocky or anything, but he didn't seem to lack any confidence in himself either.

Confidence and familiarity with the line aside, Rudi is never going to be Corey Dillon. I'm no fan of Dillon, and truthfully I wasn't before he started his crap this year. Truth is though that Dillon is an elite running back. His accomplishments speak for themselves, and for the most part he did it with a questionable line and piss poor coaching. Think of the numbers he would have racked up as part of a quality offense. It's just scary.

Rudi is a darned good back. He's better and a lot faster than I had thought he was. He's very good ... he'll get a lot of yards for the team ..... and he'll make a darned good living in the process. In the final analysis though you end up comapring a very good running back to an elite running back. Dillon really is in a higher class when it comes to ability. Problem is that Dillon is also an immature a**h***. There's always a catch isn't there ????

[BengalszoneBilly]

Points well taken RedsFan. Corey WAS indeed elite. He still may be so. I didn't see any "elite-ness" displayed after his return, but that could also be attributed to the offensive lines problems at the time, or Bratkowski's tendencies to flat abandon the run after it got stopped on consecutive downs.

As far as Rudi, and his being good or elite...I think that jury is out and won't reconvien until at least mid season next year. We'll know for sure then.

[redsfan2]

Points well taken RedsFan. Corey WAS indeed elite. He still may be so. I didn't see any "elite-ness" displayed after his return, but that could also be attributed to the offensive lines problems at the time, or Bratkowski's tendencies to flat abandon the run after it got stopped on consecutive downs.

As far as Rudi, and his being good or elite...I think that jury is out and won't reconvien until at least mid season next year. We'll know for sure then. 

I think Dillons lack of production after he was healthy was due to a lack of effort on his part. Lewis didn't turn the game back over to him because in my opinion, he didn't / doesn't trust him. I don't think that playcalling or the line had anything to do with Dillons contributions or lack there of. I think he was just going through the motions ...... doing enough to stay off Lewis' "s" list, and collect his paycheck, and make it to the end of the season without getting hurt again. Getting hurt would have been bad for him in his bid to go to another team, and he is whats important you know.

My point about Rudi ( though I didn't make it clear ) was if you have a running back that is very good ... as Rudi is, then it doesn't matter if he's in the elite class or not. He'll still get the job done. He may not dazzle you and make you go ooooohhhhhh and aaaahhhhh, but he'll quietly go out there and get you your 100 yard games ........ first downs when you need them ....... and all of the other things that the " elite " back is going to do. In the fianl analysis, if the guy is doing everything you need him to do you have to say so what if he's not in the top 3 leading rushers. He's an integral part of the #1 or #2 ranked rushing offense, we're winning games, and that what really counts.

Didn't mean to diminish Rudis contributions or importance to the team in any way.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Didn't mean to diminish Rudis contributions or importance to the team in any way.

Oh I didn't take it in that way in the least!

[kevnz]

levi jones: I think he is a franchise left tackle. He got a good bit of press as a pro bowl consideration from a good number of reporters. The game against the 49ers shows what he's made of....He had surgery and was out there playing the freakin game!!! That's heart. Now with a year with him and Steinbach together on the left side will be a brick wall for opposing teams.

Peter warrick: Great # 2 WR. He needs to show up next year for the Bengals to give him the money needed to keep him, depending on how K-wash does this year and what offseason picks they have (remember the Bengals did try to pick up Kevin Johnson when he was released) will depend on P-dub being here next year.

Rudi Johnson: I like Rudi, is he a franchise back? probably not. I think the biggest problem with Rudi is his lack of big play ability. But then, with a player like Chad can you afford to have that many big play playmakes on a team? I think Rudi is the guy to keep around and use as a sledgehammer against opposing teams, get a good "scatback" for a change of pace to compliment him, but Rudi needs the ball 25 times in a game to be truly effective. That's why the whole committee approuch was such a bad idea.

Carson Palmer:I think Carson should start...I love what Kitna does, what he brings to the teams mentality...But there is a big investment in Palmer and it's gotta start paying off. And not just on the field....If he doesn't start this year the fans are gonna start going crazy..."Is he another Klingler, or SMith?" The first time Kitna makes a mistake the fans will rip shreads into him....It's not a fair on Kitna, or Palmer. But the Bengals can ill afford waiting until 2005 to start Palmer when expecations would be even higher on the club.

Corey Dillon: Well I've said that he is worth keeping if the don't get some serious quality for him. Keep him, and just don't activate him....But Dillon is such a dumbass. He is a sorry ass little self absorbed twit. This is a team game, and he dogged out every last teamate he had this past year...I think Marvin needs to exert control on this team and show everyone just who is in charge....He did it to Takeo, and he'll do it to CD....

Draft 2k4: Well, I think defense is a top priority, but also depth and youth along the offensive line is a pretty big need as well. It would be nice to get a pick or two for Dillon to help out the team....Of course I wouldn't shed a tear if they let Rudi sign with another team and got a first and 3rd round pick for him as well as a 2nd and 4th for Dillon....Yeah, short term that would limit the running game, but long term that would add a huge amount of depth and talent to the team...

[redsfan2]

Draft 2k4: Well, I think defense is a top priority, but also depth and youth along the offensive line is a pretty big need as well. It would be nice to get a pick or two for Dillon to help out the team....Of course I wouldn't shed a tear if they let Rudi sign with another team and got a first and 3rd round pick for him as well as a 2nd and 4th for Dillon....Yeah, short term that would limit the running game, but long term that would add a huge amount of depth and talent to the team...

I think it would be a mistake to let Rudi and Dillon go at the same time. Rewarding Rudis effort ( he missed 1000 yds by thatmuch ) and dropping Dillon like a dog turd lets the players know that good actions are rewarded and mis deeds will not be tolerated. Positive reinforcement. Not saying we don't take a promising young guy in the later rounds, ...... there seem to be plenty to go around this year. I just think its a better idea to give Palmer an established back to work with in his first year as the starter.

We're drafting in the middle of the rounds, and I don't know we could pick up a guy at that spot who could come in and start right away. I'd rather see them address the defensive needs with our higher picks and save the sleepers and or projects for the later rounds. I don't think a second day quarterback is out of the question either. Matthews most likely won't be here next year and Kitna ..... provided he re works his contract will most likely be ready to hang it up when it runs out.

[BENGALBUCKEYES]

Iwas thinking peter warrick is not an elite wr reciever lacking size and speed to even get the big bucks. Recievers like P-dub small slashing punt return types of recievers are a dime a dozen. I think focusing the money on kelley washington would be the wise decision.

[redsfan2]

Iwas thinking peter warrick is not an elite wr reciever lacking size and speed to even get the big bucks.  Recievers like P-dub small slashing punt return types of recievers are a dime a dozen.  I think focusing the money on kelley washington would be the wise decision.

Welcome to the board. You've found ( imo ) the best place available to discuss the Bengals.

I kind of agree about Warrick. He's never going to be a #1 guy. I don't think he's best suited to be the #2 guy for that matter. I think he's best used as he was in college and I hope this coming season. He's a great #3 guy to hit with the medium range stuf and then try to turn it into a big gain. That and as a returner. He had 2 really top notch games this season, and showed flashes in a couple of others.

As to K Wash, this was his rookie year so he's locked up over the next couple of years during whcich he'll show whether he's worth the money or not. Marvin Lewis has already said that its time for last years rookies to step up. Everyone assumed he meant the ones on defense ... Abdullah and Weathersby, but he didn't make any distinctions. I think he meant all of them .... including Palmer.