Does Mike Brown care about winning?

[schnarfer]

I love cincinnati and it has been a long hard road that continues to get longer, but wouldn't you think Mike Brown would say "ok, I have turned the Bengals into the worst franchise in sports..maybe I should sell the team and retire in Miami."

Is it possible that he will go down with the ship? Realistically, if the Bengals do not make the playoffs, cincinnati fans are going to call for Lewis' head when really they need to turn to Brown and lynch him out of town.. I am sick of losing....How is it possible to never be above .500 in 15 years?

[Kirkendall]

I love cincinnati and it has been a long hard road that continues to get longer, but wouldn't you think Mike Brown would say "ok, I have turned the Bengals into the worst franchise in sports..maybe I should sell the team and retire in Miami."

Is it possible that he will go down with the ship? Realistically, if the Bengals do not make the playoffs, cincinnati fans are going to call for Lewis' head when really they need to turn to Brown and lynch him out of town.. I am sick of losing....How is it possible to never be above .500 in 15 years?

Shesh, at least wait till the end of the season.

[derekshank]

wouldn't you think Mike Brown would say "ok, I have turned the Bengals into the worst franchise in sports..maybe I should sell the team and retire in Miami."

That is a bit of an exaggeration don't you think? The Bengals aren't even the worst franchise in football (i.e. Arizona, Detroit, New Orleans... they have a much longer history of losing than us, not to mention other sports franchises like the Kansas City Royals, and Los Angeles Clippers)

That said... Joisey had a post a while back on a separate thread that I think best summarizes my opinion of the mindset of Mike Brown,

I don't hate Mikey. I simply understand him.

Mike Brown, and his family, which makes up the Bengals' front office, loves the game of football. And why shouldn't they? They grew up around it, worked in it, all thanks to football legend Paul Brown. Like any mom n' pop shop, it isn't just a 9-to-5 thing, it's a way of life.

What they hate is the business of football -- or more specifically, the business that football has become since the early 1990s and the start of free agency.

They hate free agency, the costs it imposes on them to keep talent and the "funny money" contracts it created.

They hate giving big guaranteed money to draft picks who've never played an NFL down. They hate all the shennigans placed in NFL contracts today -- voidable years, two-tiered signing bonuses, soft incentive and escalataor targets, roster bonuses -- all the non-performance (and minimum-performance)-based junk that's been developed to shimmy and shally around the salary cap.

And they hate the corporate nature of modern football. You may like to comment on how willing I am to tell Mikey how to spend his money -- but Mikey is equally willing to tell Jerry Jones how he should spend his. And specifically that he should spend more of it on...Mike Brown. Because Mike is in a small market and he doesn't want to sell stadium naming rights and he's like, poor, y'know? Hwever you feel about revenue-sharing, it isn't hard to understand why Jerry's response is to flip Mikey the bird.

And so every time the busines of football comes up, as it does, with all those things the front office hates, every year when time comes to sign draft picks...we get these kind of results. The front office enters negotiations with all the enthusiasm you or I might feel for a root canal, sulkily starts at the absolute bottom of the barrel, and then refuses to budge until forced. And when that attitude comes up against a major agency like IMG that does deals by the dozens with all manner of sports teams on a regular basis and suddenly finds itself faced with a front offce with a bad attitude and a homespun contract...well, bad things are likely to happen. And this year, they are.

I don't give Joisey love very often, but I really felt that this was an accurate depiction of the pain Mikey goes through in attempting to run the home town team. Some might disagree with this depiction, but not knowing Brown personally, this seems to make the most sense... especially given his lineage. So I think he does care about winning... he cares a lot... unfortunately he wants to run the team "old-school" and it won't cut it anymore.

I don't blame Mikey for all the Bengals woes, but I do hope he wisens up. I'd like the Bengals to stay in the Brown family, but more than that, I want the Bengals to win... so whatever it takes, you know?

[Spain]

He is worse than me! LOL

[MacD BengalFan]

I don't blame Mikey for all the Bengals woes, but I do hope he wisens up. I'd like the Bengals to stay in the Brown family, but more than that, I want the Bengals to win... so whatever it takes, you know?

Unlike you, I do blame Mike Brown for every losing season before Marvin Lewis came on board. But since then, things have changed and I think it is because he has wizened up recently and turned everything over to Katie and Marvin. Mike had total control of the team, every contract was negotiated by him and all he saw was how much money he could lose. Yes, it is a business. But how much talent do you sacrifice before the business suffers?

[HoosierCat]

Thanks for the kind words, derek.

As for Warrick getting cut, was it all about money?

Well...yeah. Duh. But that said...

...this was Marvin's call, not Mikey's. If Marvin had said, "keep Peter," Warrick is still a Bengal.

But in that case Olahete and Navies likely aren't. And guys like Viera get cut instead of PUP'd.

I strongly believe that Marvin has personnel control. But he has that control within a budget. If he wants, say, Corey Simon, he can pursue him...but the money has to come from someplace (i.e. cuts). Now, that isn't unusual. Every team has to work within a budget. But Marvin also has to work within the "Bengals way of doing business," which means, among other things, that they won't play games like "cash over cap."

Bottom line, IMHO: Marvin wanted a vet SS. He wanted a vet LB. He wanted to PUP some guys (and thus spend money on them) like Viera instead of cutting them. And the price to do that was Warrick.

Now...will that turn out to be a mistake? Should Mikey have bent his rules, ponied up a little more coin and found a way to do all that plus keep Peter? Personally, I would have liked to have seen that. I think Warrick is in good enough shape to contribute and that we were a better team with him on it. But time will tell.

[Kirkendall]

I do think it's about money, but I don't believe that's even half the reason. Peter Warrick just isn't reliable, anymore, to be a player on this team. Hands down (no pun, btw). Even if he'd be making the minimum, he hasn't contributed in a two pre-seasons and a full season. Apparently, and there's ZERO evidence of this from my view other than hypothetical hopes, the wide receiver position is loaded. Warrick didn't even scratch the surface. And I truly believe, as some "close to the situation" have said, but coming with little confirmation, that Warrick's injury, most likely will shut him down for his career -- which of course, only time will tell.

So in conclusion, if the above is too wordy, I think his release was more performance based before economics based.

PS, if any of this was mentioned in the other thread, my bad, I don't feel like ciphering through the 63 post thread, sorry mods

[HoosierCat]

Hobson on the Warrick cut...

But no release will have the impact of Warrick, a charismatic figure in the locker room and on the field more popular with his teammates than he was with the head coach. He seemed to get on the bad side of Lewis early in his rehab and never got back.

In the past few weeks, Warrick had apparently rankled some in the organization with quotes about not getting the ball in his only preseason game and that he was one of the answers for the sluggish offense.

When Warrick publicly asked the Bengals to cut him Tuesday rather than Saturday if they were going to cut him, that appeared to be the final straw in some high places at Paul Brown Stadium.

“His only comment to me is he didn’t mean things to come out the way they did,” Lewis said. “That’s unfortunate. I think a lot of people took offense to it. I didn’t because I didn’t know anything that he said. But I know some people took offense to it because I think we’ve done everything we could to give him an opportunity. I don’t know if he said them out of frustration or if he got led down that path. Enough said.

“We were very patient. It was time. I think that’s what he wanted. We just wish him good luck. Peter is a good person.”

But maybe, just maybe, in Lewis's eyes, Warrick was too nice and laid back in the sense he didn’t have the fire to come back from the 2003 knee scope and the 2004 broken fibula. Lewis said, “We’ve got to know if you can be out there and be there day in and day out.”

Warrick, reached briefly Tuesday afternoon, politely declined comment, saying only that he was getting on a plane that turned out to be headed to Seattle. Other interested teams are Tampa Bay, the Giants, Colts, Packers, and a New England team that inquired about a possible trade during training camp.

FWIW...

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Cutting Warrick wasn't about the money, it was about NOT GETTING IT DONE. In his career, he got it done exactly once. One season, One Big Game in KC.

[HairOnFire]

Thanks for the kind words, derek.

As for Warrick getting cut, was it all about money?

Well...yeah. Duh. But that said...

All about the money? Sheesh, I bet it's statements like that one that prompt Derek to shank you far more often than he props you in the head.

Here's a question just begging to be asked. If Warrick is completely healthy what kind of numbers do you think he'll put up for his new team? Same as '03?

[DontPushMe]

Mike Brown is a great president, who fully cares about the team and winning. I wouldnt trade him for but a couple others around the league.

[HoosierCat]

Here's a question just begging to be asked. If Warrick is completely healthy what kind of numbers do you think he'll put up for his new team? Same as '03?

If Warrick is completely healthy?

Yeah, same as '03 sounds reasonable.

Why wouldn't it be?

[The Big Orange]

Mike Brown is a great president, who fully cares about the team and winning. I wouldnt trade him for but a couple others around the league.

The only way I can explain this new and improved DPM is that Pushy...

(1) Got born again-and probably speaking in tongues

(2) Is regular for the first time in the new millenium

(3) Is no longer a virgin-congrats, buddy, bet your wife wondered what took you so long

(4) Met Willie in a dark alley and after a friendly chat has nothing but positive things to say about the Bengals

[TMac]

:player: Hey Big O, I am leaning toward 1.Got born again-and probably speaking in tongues,

[HairOnFire]

Here's a question just begging to be asked. If Warrick is completely healthy what kind of numbers do you think he'll put up for his new team? Same as '03?

If Warrick is completely healthy?

Yeah, same as '03 sounds reasonable.

Why wouldn't it be?

Cool, let's bet. You say Warrick is completely healthy, was cut entirely because of his salary, and when asked could think of no reason he shouldn't put up comparable numbers to his '03 season. I say he was cut because he's still tweaked, and I'm willing to bet he doesn't come close to his past numbers regardless of which team he signs with.

Fun with numbers...

79 receptions

819 yards receiving

18 rushes

157 yards rushing

25 punt returns

273 yards

1,249 total yards

8 touchdowns

Negotiate wisely as I've got an empty spot on my booze shelf just begging to be filled.

[The Big Orange]

Could be TMac, but the smart money is on being regular...a lot of frustrated people could just use a few good sits on the throne.

[HairOnFire]

The only way I can explain this new and improved DPM is that Pushy...

(1) Got born again-and probably speaking in tongues

(2) Is regular for the first time in the new millenium

(3) Is no longer a virgin-congrats, buddy, bet your wife wondered what took you so long

(4) Met Willie in a dark alley and after a friendly chat has nothing but positive things to say about the Bengals

I say his mood improved immediately after his yeast infection finally cleared up.

[The Big Orange]

I say his mood improved immediately after his yeast infection finally cleared up.

Those can be nasty.

Perhaps with my DVD earnings I can buy Pushy a years supply of high-end douche's. I've got an uncle who sells them out of his trunk, he could probably hook me up.

[bengalindian]

I'm putting my money on no longer being a virgin. Who isn't happy after they have sex?

[kingwilly]

Simply put: NO

I think most of us will stop bitchin when Mike Brown connects the dots between winning and creating a front-office organization that can facilitate such an occurence.

I know that you would agree that wanting to win and taking the necessary steps to do so, yielding organizational control, are entirely seperate things.

It does not take a great businessman to have a financially successful NFL franchise, revenue sharing and the popularity of the League takes care of that. It is almost an automatic. If Mike Brown were an astute business man with an intent to win AND have a successful franchise, he would have hired the appropriate staff for the front office to effect such an intent. The current front staff is filled with family, family-in-laws, and a few former players (Ball?). To me, his actions over the past decade-plus do not equate with a man who is intent on winning, one who equips the organization with a philosophy, the staff and environment for success.

All I can say is that I used to think we were "Close and making progress" but it is these situations, like where Lewis reveals that "Mike Brown has final say" and the Pollack deal is all smoke, that tells me there is still a long, long way to go. Detroit may as well be on Mars.

[DontPushMe]

I'm putting my money on no longer being a virgin. Who isn't happy after they have sex?

Nah that was taken care of a while ago. Lets try not to make guesses at my personal life based off of posts on a message board.

As for that post, I've always defended Mike Brown. Blind optimist or not. And the reason I am being a blind optimist now is because I was recently told that if you have any doubts or questions about the team or are even slightly critical, you arent a fan.

[Rimington over Marino]

Having just had a healthy BM myself I vote that Push has become regular. Middle aged men sometimes feel just as good after a good dump as we used to after getting laid. A different feeling but now it is comparable.

Guys, don't get old.

[HoosierCat]

You say Warrick is completely healthy, was cut entirely because of his salary, and when asked could think of no reason he shouldn't put up comparable numbers to his '03 season. I say he was cut because he's still tweaked, and I'm willing to bet he doesn't come close to his past numbers regardless of which team he signs with.

I doubt he will, either. At the very least, he's not in football shape thanks to the long layoff. Like I said a while back, keeping him here in Cincy was never about him being a starter. It was about whether spending $2.28 million on an insurance policy made more sense than applying the money to other needs. Other needs got the nod. Whether that was a good call or not...we'll see.

I'll be happy to make you a bet. But let's see where Warrick lands first. Whether it's, say, Peyton or Eli throwing to him might make a bit of diifference in his numbers.

[HoosierCat]

It does not take a great businessman to have a financially successful NFL franchise, revenue sharing and the popularity of the League takes care of that. It is almost an automatic.

That's the rub, willy: it isn't an automatic any more. Once upon a time, it was, but today the old "socialist" (as Art Modell famously dubbed it) NFL system is breaking down. A new generation of owners are using their larger markets, and/or better marketing, and/or money from successful non-football businesses, to pour money into their teams that the Browns cannot match. They don't have that big market, they don't have any other businesses, etc.

To the title of this thread, it isn't a question of whether Mikey cares about winning. I believe he does, deeply. The real question is, are the Bengals, under the ownership of the Browns, capable of being financially competitive in the changing NFL? I think the answer, increasingly, is no. If the Redskins, say, have $100 million in local revenues and the Bengals have $20 million...the diisadvantage approaches the insurmountable. That's why Mikey is so adamant about their being more revenue sharing, to try to stave off the league's slide toward a big bucks/small market split like there is in baseball.

[kingwilly]

Mike Brown is no business genius. If he were, he would be doing the kind of things, scaled to the market he's in, that would mirror other franchises that make the big bucks. The fact is, the Brown family does quite well for having one of the worst clubs in the NFL because of the way the league shares revenue. When they sell a Moss jersey, brown gets a percentage. If the Cowboys have a primo TV deal, the Browns get a piece.

If Brown cared about winning, which I believe he thinks he does, he would have structured an organization that would be fielding a winning team. A winning team solves alot of problems assocaited with a small market or limited additional resources. Take a look at Green Bay, Kansas City and Pittsburgh. All of these markets are smaller than Cincy, field winning teams (relative to Cincy) and add to Mikey's bottom line.

The Benglas start winning, start making some noise, they will get the peripheral deals that the other clubs in similar markets already have.

It starts with winning, and I don't think Mikey has it in him.