Warrick or Washington?

[redsbengalsbucks]

Washington stays and Warrick goes as of right now, that may change after the next two games.

[HoosierCat]

The Bengals have too many good WRs

I think that's a core assumption a lot of people are making, and I question whether it's true.

Chad Johnson? OK, no problem, one of the best in the league. But ater that...

TJ? I was one of those calling for the Bengals to re-sign him, and I remain glad they did. But the point made by many of TJ's detractors is still valid: he's had one good year. I don't believe his performance was a fluke...but it could turn out that it was.

Washington? Well, at least TJ has had one good year. K-wash as had zero. Yes, he's looking improved so far this year, but there are no shortage of players who look great right up until September and then turn to crap.

Henry and Tab Perry? Rookies, both of 'em. Maybe they live up to their hype, maybe they don't. We can all look back over Bengals history and find lots of alleged great draft picks who turned out to suck.

Walters, Russell, etc.? Look, there's a reason these guys are in that "always bride's maids, never brides" category. They just aren't that good. They're career No. 3's, and dozens like them will be released from rosters around the league over the next couple weeks. If we ever got in a situation where we needed to go this deep on the depth chart for a starter, we'd have no shortage of guys to choose from. (Not that it would matter, if that happened we'd probably be screwed anyhow.)

So, to review, we have 1 good receiver (Chad), one probably good (TJ), and then a bunch of question marks, rookies, and camp fodder. Under the circumstance, I would be very reluctant to let Warrick go. We know he can play, and IMHO even 50% of P-dub is better than 100% of Jamal Broussard.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Some nutjob asked what Walter has done to make the squad other than play really well against backups.  I ask what has Pdub done, other than ride a bike and sit in a hot tub? 

Walter makes the team because of his special teams play.  And because he is a solid backup who provided depth, but mostly plays special teams.

Warrick is a veteran, you know what he can do when healthy. It's up for the team to decide if he's healthy enough. If so, keep him. If not, punt him.

The Bengals have too many good WRs to keep around some guy who's OK against 3rd teamers and contributes some on special teams. He doesn't have the ability to toast anybody. I don't think the decision about Warrick comes down to how good Walter is, because IF (big if, I realize) he's healthy, Warrick is much better than Walter. The Warrick decision comes down to Warrick.

So if the Bengals keep Warrick, you get to decide between Cliff Russell, Tab Perry, and Walter, pick 1. If they get rid of Warrick, you get to pick 2, but one of them probably needs to be Cliff Russell since he returns kicks. As I said before, I think it's Russell or Warrick, and Perry or Walter.

Actually you can't build a team out of nothing but $2 million plus players. You NEED to have solid guys who contribute on special teams, and can play if a couple people at their position are injured but are minimum salary kind of guys. Walter does this.

Warrick costs more than he's worth, since we are looking at paying him over $2 mill for less than a full season. He's NOT healthy, or he would be playing.

[walshfan]

Look Im not on the "Please lets keep Walter because he's had a good preseason bandwagon"....

I see a player with a great work ethic thats improving himself ....

I see a player that seperates himself and isnt afraid to catch screen or hitch passes over the middle..

No he doesnt have the talent of Washington or Warrick.. Id keep both if they live up to that talent....

As for Russell or Tab Perry.... I think Russell's job as KO returner could be taken by Watson...

I dont know what Tab Perry can do yet... His unfortunate injury prevents that..

I do know Walter can help this team....

this upcoming game is a big one for Russell, Walter and Tab Perry....someone has to go!!!

[Spain]

Man You guys are crazy, first Warrik gone after next year, Walter keeps getting better and it looks like he finally has developed some hands! Come on think a lil.

[bengalrick]

"if it came down to it, who goes?"

assumign both were healthy, washington... but this is teh wrong question imo... IF warrick is healthy, both make the team.. this is a revoluation to me, b/c i am/was a washington hater... but considering his potential and his performance in the preseason games so far, i don't see him going anywhere... warrick is a great wideout when healthy... he can block, catch, and make people miss... he is also a pretty good return guy...

the question is, who does go... can't be walter b/c he brings so much to the game... its looking like russell to me...

cj

tj

pdub

kwash

ch

kw

i haven't decided if we'll keep 7 wr's and 2 te's (excluding st louis) or 6 wr's and 3 te's... if we do the first, shoebel is probably gone... i am leaning that way as of now, and keeping russell/perry/broussard (whoever wins out in preseason from here on out)

[bengalrick]

Some nutjob asked what Walter has done to make the squad other than play really well against backups.  I ask what has Pdub done, other than ride a bike and sit in a hot tub? 

Walter makes the team because of his special teams play.  And because he is a solid backup who provided depth, but mostly plays special teams.

Warrick is a veteran, you know what he can do when healthy. It's up for the team to decide if he's healthy enough. If so, keep him. If not, punt him.

The Bengals have too many good WRs to keep around some guy who's OK against 3rd teamers and contributes some on special teams. He doesn't have the ability to toast anybody. I don't think the decision about Warrick comes down to how good Walter is, because IF (big if, I realize) he's healthy, Warrick is much better than Walter. The Warrick decision comes down to Warrick.

So if the Bengals keep Warrick, you get to decide between Cliff Russell, Tab Perry, and Walter, pick 1. If they get rid of Warrick, you get to pick 2, but one of them probably needs to be Cliff Russell since he returns kicks. As I said before, I think it's Russell or Warrick, and Perry or Walter.

Actually you can't build a team out of nothing but $2 million plus players. You NEED to have solid guys who contribute on special teams, and can play if a couple people at their position are injured but are minimum salary kind of guys. Walter does this.

Warrick costs more than he's worth, since we are looking at paying him over $2 mill for less than a full season. He's NOT healthy, or he would be playing.

you mean practicing right?? he did play (not much, but he was there) on friday and so far, marvin thinks he'll be in there for this game too... can't find the quote in the transcript that i heard watchign the the press conference yesturday so you'll have to watch the video at bengals.com, but he mentioned that warrick would probably be out there, and they would evaluate both before teh game, to see if their ready...

[TippCityRick]

I can't believe we're having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!

Pdub isn't healthy and if he ain't healthy he ain't playing. If he ain't playing he ain't helping the team.

I said it before, if Pdub is healthy you keep him. He's a difference maker. But I don't think he is. He's standing on the sidelines and will be doing same tomorrow night.

Obviously ML is in a pickle. You don't want to cut Pdub until you're sure he's not healthy enough to contribute. The problem is they don't know. Is the PUP an available option? I hope so. It gives them a few more weeks to decide.

Now comes Kevin Walters. What does he have to show? Yeah, he made a couple of nice catches last week, but that's not where he makes this team. He's been a solid if not spectacular special teamer for a couple years now. Maybe a dime a dozen player, maybe not. But he's a gunner and with Myles down we need gunners.

Washington. Oh, what to do with Kelly? Well, he brings you a third receiver that has been inconsistant at best. Yeah, lots of potential. Yeah, third year in the league. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. But what has he shown? Tell me, what has he shown? That he can make the "over-the-shoulder-catch-running-down-the-sidelines-against-an-obviously-winded-rookie-who-blew-the-coverage-on-the-preceeding-play-but-got-lucky-cuz-TJ-didn't-catch-the-ball-so-had-to-line-up-and-do-it-again-and-our-qb-noticed-that-he-was-winded-so-he-threw-the-same-play-at-him-and-he-got-burned-again" catch? Yeah, I think that's what KW has shown this year. That and that stupid dance.

Until KW shows he can consistantly catch the ball over the middle in traffic and until he shows he can beat a vetern corner that isn't winded, I say keep the guy who gives up his body on ST times and time again.

Hair and Joisey, I expect better from you two.

[HairOnFire]

to each his won but to let Walter go and keep an inconsistent receiver ( Washington) and a player that's probably seen his better days ( Warrick ) would be insane....are you insane Hair on Fire? Are they coming to take you away aha?

Coming to take me away? No, but I have been warned.

There's really nothing new to add to this one. It's all been said before. Washington always made my roster and he's only strengthened his position after having a very strong preseason. Also making the roster without any question are Chad, TJ, and Henry. Warrick makes it without skipping a beat if the question of his health is answered positively. If not, I wish him the best and move on. But if I'm satisfied that he can produce at a desirable level...a question I'm in no position to answer...I'd be willing to roll the dice on Warrick and let any of the bottom dwellers go.

Quite frankly, I agree this thread asks the wrong question. To me, assuming Warrick can play, the hard choice comes down to Walters, Tab, and Russell. My scorecard says Walters sticks, Tab gets stashed, and the other guy gets pushed off of a cliff. (Pun intended.)

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Actually you can't build a team out of nothing but $2 million plus players.  You NEED to have solid guys who contribute on special teams, and can play if a couple people at their position are injured but are minimum salary kind of guys.  Walter does this.

Warrick costs more than he's worth, since we are looking at paying him over $2 mill for less than a full season.  He's NOT healthy, or he would be playing.

That's what I'm saying though - the decision on Warrick comes down to Warrick and if he's healthy enough to justify the price. If he's healthy, he's a solid #2 WR on most teams. But some people seem to be buying into the delusion that Walter is better than Warrick, and he's clearly not, preseason games notwithstanding.

I also think that as stacked as our WR corps are, that's not the place where you cut a guy with real talent to keep a special teams guy. I'd probably let that fall to a position where the competition isn't so stiff.

And really, a lot of guys aren't playing. Marvin isn't always easy to figure out, this is the preseason, so I'd be cautious before reading too much into his decisions.

I also still maintain that this Warrick vs. Washington thing is a fantasy, Washington is no longer going anywhere unless they were to trade him for a pick. I don't think both Tab Perry and Walters make the team unless one goes practice squad. Walters' special teams ability should help him beat out Perry, who I think they're trying to hide well enough to get him on practice squad.

[TippCityRick]

you mean practicing right?? he did play (not much, but he was there) on friday and so far, marvin thinks he'll be in there for this game too... can't find the quote in the transcript that i heard watchign the the press conference yesturday so you'll have to watch the video at bengals.com, but he mentioned that warrick would probably be out there, and they would evaluate both before teh game, to see if their ready...

If PW is out there then ML has broken from his stance of practice-before-play. That would be a major departure, but IMWT.

btw, welcome to the board Rick (weird to say since that's what my momma christened me!).

[HoosierCat]

Quite frankly, I agree this thread asks the wrong question. To me, assuming Warrick can play, the hard choice comes down to Walters, Tab, and Russell. My scorecard says Walters sticks, Tab gets stashed, and the other guy gets pushed off of a cliff. (Pun intended.)

Yup.

[TippCityRick]

Hair, where do you get that KW is having a good preseason. I believe he had a drop against the Pats and a couple of catches (other than the one mentioned above) for a total of 12 yards. He still brings you nothing on ST (which you need from nos 3-4 on the depth chart) and still looks as if he can't fool any respectable defensive back on his route. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

If we cut him I hope he lands with the Eagles because they wont be battling us for a playoff spot, he would play for a great team with a great QB, and it would hurt Owens.

Speaking of which, wasn't there some rumors of us moving him to the Eagles? Was that bunk, are they waiting for us to cut him so they get him for free, or what? Because I'm pretty sure that if he's even close to healthy he'd be the best non-TO receiver on their team by far.

[BENGAL]

I'd tweak the system and find a way to cut Kevin Walter. No kidding, I'd keep Washington and half of Peter Warrick over that guy.

Hair, I am just wondering what it is exactly that you do not like about Kevin Walter? If you are watching the same camp and pre season games I am he has done more than Warrick and Washington, not to mention Henry and Perry.

[BENGAL]

to each his won but to let Walter go and keep an inconsistent receiver ( Washington) and a player that's probably seen his better days ( Warrick ) would be insane....are you insane Hair on Fire? Are they coming to take you away aha?

what the hell has walter done besides have a few good PRESEASON games?

washington may have been a letdown thus far but i think he will contribute a lot this year.

warrick's a gamebreaker if he's healthy.

If this, if that...

The truth is that Warrick IS NOT healthy, and Kelley HAS BEEN a disapointment.

Walter HAS HAD a few preseason games, and that is what preseason is all about to show what you can do. Now what makes you think he can't have a few (or 16) good games this season?

[JohnsonX5]

Marvin during the press conference yesterday...

Peter Warrick and Kelley Washington, we’ll see how they are prior to the game.  Right now, I think Peter's got a good shot at playing...

I guess I'm one of the few that's still optimistic that Warrick will return to good health, although with each missed practice, my optimism is waning. I can understand that some of you guys don't think he's going to be healthy. That's fine. I simply disagree.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

to each his won but to let Walter go and keep an inconsistent receiver ( Washington) and a player that's probably seen his better days ( Warrick ) would be insane....are you insane Hair on Fire? Are they coming to take you away aha?

what the hell has walter done besides have a few good PRESEASON games?

washington may have been a letdown thus far but i think he will contribute a lot this year.

warrick's a gamebreaker if he's healthy.

If this, if that...

The truth is that Warrick IS NOT healthy, and Kelley HAS BEEN a disapointment.

Walter HAS HAD a few preseason games, and that is what preseason is all about to show what you can do. Now what makes you think he can't have a few (or 16) good games this season?

The fact that he's never done it before? The fact that he only lit up players who won't be playing on Sundays? I don't dislike Walter, but this happens every year - some guy lights up the preseason and you never hear from him again.

I mean, which would you rather have, a guy who has shown things in real games or a guy who hasn't? If this was between two guys who haven't started in the NFL, I'd agree with you. But Walter is a career backup and I don't see him as being good enough to bump KW or a 80% healthy Warrick off the field at any point. When healthy, you know what Warrick can do, and it's a lot of things that Walter will never be able to do.

Again, if Warrick won't be healthy enough to play, then forget it. But this is a decision about Warrick's health, because the skill level isn't even comparable.

[bengalrick]

I can't believe we're having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!

Pdub isn't healthy and if he ain't healthy he ain't playing. If he ain't playing he ain't helping the team.

I said it before, if Pdub is healthy you keep him. He's a difference maker. But I don't think he is. He's standing on the sidelines and will be doing same tomorrow night.

Obviously ML is in a pickle. You don't want to cut Pdub until you're sure he's not healthy enough to contribute. The problem is they don't know. Is the PUP an available option? I hope so. It gives them a few more weeks to decide.

Now comes Kevin Walters. What does he have to show? Yeah, he made a couple of nice catches last week, but that's not where he makes this team. He's been a solid if not spectacular special teamer for a couple years now. Maybe a dime a dozen player, maybe not. But he's a gunner and with Myles down we need gunners.

Washington. Oh, what to do with Kelly? Well, he brings you a third receiver that has been inconsistant at best. Yeah, lots of potential. Yeah, third year in the league. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. But what has he shown? Tell me, what has he shown? That he can make the "over-the-shoulder-catch-running-down-the-sidelines-against-an-obviously-winded-rookie-who-blew-the-coverage-on-the-preceeding-play-but-got-lucky-cuz-TJ-didn't-catch-the-ball-so-had-to-line-up-and-do-it-again-and-our-qb-noticed-that-he-was-winded-so-he-threw-the-same-play-at-him-and-he-got-burned-again" catch? Yeah, I think that's what KW has shown this year. That and that stupid dance.

Until KW shows he can consistantly catch the ball over the middle in traffic and until he shows he can beat a vetern corner that isn't winded, I say keep the guy who gives up his body on ST times and time again.

Hair and Joisey, I expect better from you two.

first of all tipcityrick, your absolutely right about walter... him being a good reciever is meaningless... how often does a 4,5, or 6 guy actually see PT as a reciever? not often... but, if you pay close attention to the two preseason games this year, he has done much more than that... he plays almost all st's and who will take his place as the gunner on punt's?? also, if you have the tape, goto the end of the third quarter and watch that nice screen play by watson... first of all, guichek and moore both made great blocks... that gave watson his first lane, but he would have been tackled soon after if it wasn't for the outstanding block by walter... go back and check it out... he hit one defender and literally took him off his feet, and took out the guy that almost tackled watson for a 5 yard gain... instead, watson got 30+ yards... that is the kind of stuff that most people don't know about, but i guarentee marvin does...

pdub's situation is wierd... isn't he out right now b/c he has tweaked his hammy? that has nothing to do w/ his knee... unless they are lieing about the hammy, it sounds to me like a problem when you play in a game, before your "football" ready... he has an uphill battle, but warrick is a good enough player to make it... this quote makes me feel better about him playing though: WR Kelley Washington, who pulled a hamstring Tuesday, didn’t dress. WR Peter Warrick, also battling a hamstring, didn’t dress, and both are game-time decisions, but Warrick indicated he would like to play and thinks he might and head coach Marvin Lewis thinks "he has a pretty good shot." Rookie WR Tab Perry did practice for the first time since tweaking a muscle last week. click here... i see him playing tommorrow...

we can't let washington go yet, until he proves that he really can't play in the regular season... he has all the talent in the world, and if he puts it together, he could be something...

[Irish Bengal]

If Warrick isn't healthy, keep Washington.

If Warrick is healthy, cut Washongton as much as it may hurt some. Kevin Walters can do everything Washington can, and has shown to have better hands, and can play special teams.

Not again ! Walters makes a couple good catches in a pre season game and everyone thinks he's better than Warrick or Washington, Come on!

Washington plays with the first team therefore he seems to be in Marvin eyes the better receiver. There is a reason Walters doesn't play with the first team WRs, he's a special teams player who may occasionally come in in certain situations to catch a ball in regular season, (ie player injured) but that's it.

Washington has better stats will continue to get better and has more potential and talent than Walters. Don't get me wrong I like Walters too, but I feel Washington gives us the best chance to get to DETROIT. :player: :player:

[HairOnFire]

Hair, where do you get that KW is having a good preseason.

Coaches comments mostly plus writers remarks presumably based upon insider information. And I don't give a crap that Washington doesn't play a larger role on special teams because that's not what I'm looking for from him. It's what I look for from fringe players, but not from Washington. If you don't agree...fine. But I want a wideout to be a wideout first and foremost, not a glorified gunner than can run a 7 yard slant.

Last, I'm not making too much out of what we've seen so far in preseason games because I've always viewed it as a deliberately muddled mess of starters mixed in with backups running vanilla schemes before important players retreat to the sidelines after making a play or two.

[HairOnFire]

I'd tweak the system and find a way to cut Kevin Walter. No kidding, I'd keep Washington and half of Peter Warrick over that guy.

Hair, I am just wondering what it is exactly that you do not like about Kevin Walter? If you are watching the same camp and pre season games I am he has done more than Warrick and Washington, not to mention Henry and Perry.

I'm not really a dedicated Kevin Walter basher. If you read all of my posts you'd see that I think he has a pretty good chance of making the roster due to his special team skills. But when I answer the questions as they're asked I buck at the idea that the choice will come down to Warrick or Washington. I've handicapped this race differently than the person who stared this thread and after reading the responses I don't think I'm alone.

[HairOnFire]

Hair and Joisey, I expect better from you two.

Two things come to mind.

First, I'm well aware that I've become a constant disappointment to others, and I've learned to live with this fact largely due to my incredible apathy. Simply put, not giving a rats azz helps me cope with the day to day looks of disapproval my very presence seems to promote.

Last, you can't judge me on this one until we see how it plays out. If Washington makes the final roster you'll have to agree that I've been dead on for a couple of months now. And if he doesn't make the roster then you'll be right, and I'll have to make do with the consolation prize of taking Joisey down with me.

[HoosierCat]

On my part, I'd be happy to argue with TCR...he just has to actually disagree with something I said first .

[TippCityRick]

QUOTE (TippCityRick @ Aug 25 2005, 11:40 AM)

Hair and Joisey, I expect better from you two. 

Two things come to mind.

First, I'm well aware that I've become a constant disappointment to others, and I've learned to live with this fact largely due to my incredible apathy. Simply put, not giving a rats azz helps me cope with the day to day looks of disapproval my very presence seems to promote.

Last, you can't judge me on this one until we see how it plays out. If Washington makes the final roster you'll have to agree that I've been dead on for a couple of months now. And if he doesn't make the roster then you'll be right, and I'll have to make do with the consolation prize of taking Joisey down with me.

When I wrote my initial post in this thread, I was reacting to what I thought was a turn in the thread to include Walter in the discussion. IMHO (and I believe in both your's and Joisey's), Walter makes this team on ST. He's valuable there as a gunner and someone's gotta gun. It's amazing to me that no one has noticed that Myles has been out and Walter is our No. 2 gunner.

You both have more confidence in KWash than I do. I've been saying for a while now that Warrick is around if he's healthy or if there is a reasonable chance he'll be healthy in a number of weeks (PUP anyone?). But KWash is in a battle for the confidence of the coaching staff. Yeah I've read also that he's done well in practice and at camp. But in two games so far I've seen the same ol' KWash disappear in games only to reappear after another's performance has created an opening for him to do a lil' dance.

I hope KWash plays friday. In fact I'd like him to start and for Chad to sit and rest (not gonna happen). I'd like to see what KWash brings us against the first team defense as one of the top two receivers. My guess is two catches for 12 yards. The man creates no separation that I can see. Again, JMO but KWash only makes this team if Warrick isn't healthy.

**End of rant**