Warrick faced with pay cut or being cut

[ckj414]

Well said Joisey. I wish you were wrong about the way this went down though. I thought the front office had grown out of this Mickey Mouse junk. Live and learn...

[HairOnFire]

So you maintain it is in an agent's interest --or the player's for that matter -- to get his client less money than his slot calls for?

Be nice. I didn't use the wacko smilie when you claimed that the agent assumed the same risk as the team did from a prolonged holdout....and I easily could have.

If it helps try looking at it this way. Cadillac Williams agent told him how far apart the two sides were at the bargaining table and claimed he could get everything they were asking for if he was willing to hold out. Then he advised against doing that. Williams agreed, explaining that he had always made it known to his agent how important he felt it was to get in camp as early as possible. So Williams told his agent to accept the offer on the table instead of holding out for what seemed to be minor considerations. Wiliams even went so far to say that he didn't care if later deals showed he could have gotten more by waiting for a higher slot price to be determined.

Now compare the above to the Ronnie Brown example. His agent has held his client out based upon the argument that his client deserves to be paid 20% more than the amount Phillip Rivers got from the Giants due to the #4 slot Brown and Rivers were drafted in. Frankly, that argument seems ridiculous to me as it ignores all other circumstances, isn't likely to work, and ultimately harms the player and the team. But the slotting argument implies it's a fair position to take. Do you agree?

If the Bengals/Pollack example seems less extreme...that's exactly the point. If both sides were as close as previously reported, and the Bengals have shown a willingness to compromise, how can you argue that Pollack is being well served by his agents refusal to compromise? Isn't part of his job making decisions through negotiations that result in his client getting into camp as soon as possible?

[HairOnFire]

This has nothing to do with whether Pollack agent's thought they might benefit by waiting; they knew with absolute certainty that they would because the Bengals began by offering a deal commensurate with the 19th pick.

Do you realize in the space of a few posts you've gone from claiming the agent assumed the same risk from a holdout as the team did to the agent knowing with absolute certainty that he would benefit from a holdout.

[HairOnFire]

I expect Kremer was leaving himself some wiggle room to come up on total value in return for accepting the team's notoriously difficult to hit incentive clauses.

I suspect the holdup was due to Kremer's refusal to wiggle at all on the incentive triggers, and I'll argue further that they go hand in hand with the issue of total money. Arguing one position while ignoring the other won't get you a deal.

In addition, I wonder what is notoriously difficult about incentive triggers that demand a QB throw for 160 yards per game or require a DE to produce at least 6 sacks a season. And yeah, those were considered the sticking points in recent holdouts. So what would be a fair incentive trigger for Pollack? Then again, what does it matter if his agent refuses anything but a standard so low that it's not worth negotiating.

[HoosierCat]

If the Bengals/Pollack example seems less extreme...that's exactly the point. If both sides were as close as previously reported, and the Bengals have shown a willingness to compromise, how can you argue that Pollack is being well served by his agents refusal to compromise? Isn't part of his job making decisions through negotiations that result in his client getting into camp as soon as possible?

A couple of points. First of all, until the James deal came in, the Bengals were not reportedly in a compromising mood, either. All their "giving" has occured since it became plainly obvious that their initial offer was outside the slot. And like I said before, now that the issue of money, guaranteed and other, has been settled, were I Pollack's agents I would not be fussing over escalator triggers.

As for whether Pollack's agent should have stood firm over something on the order of $400k or $500k, well, it's still a lot of money, no matter whether your bank account is measured in tens of dollars or millions of dollars. And it isn't as if we are talking about an agent demanding that his client get half a million more than his slot called for, but just that the Bengals cough up a fair market price.

As a Bengals fan, I would have gained a great deal of resepct for Pollack had he stood up and said, y'know what, screw the half mil, I want to go to camp. But I can't fault him for not doing so.

Finally, I will note that all this is based on what little has been publicly available. In the end, when the dust settles and more facts seep out, it may turn out that you are absolutely right, that his agent was a jackass out to screw the Bengals, and/or that Pollack is just a greedy kid, and that this whole campaign was planned in some dark Atlanta backroom where Kremer, Condon and Pollack gathered in July to sip warm cognac, cackle evilly and plot the financial ruin of the Bengals. (Dramatic liberties taken with the last sentence.) If so, I will happily admit you were 100% right and join you on the barricade calling for Kremer's head!

[HoosierCat]

This has nothing to do with whether Pollack agent's thought they might benefit by waiting; they knew with absolute certainty that they would because the Bengals began by offering a deal commensurate with the 19th pick.

Do you realize in the space of a few posts you've gone from claiming the agent assumed the same risk from a holdout as the team did to the agent knowing with absolute certainty that he would benefit from a holdout.

Perhaps "absolute certainty" was a bit of an overstatement, but with just 200k seperating the Bengals' offer from what Spears signed for at No. 20, any reasonable person would have concluded that Barron at 19 or James at 18 signing for more than that was a sure thing. There's no need for conspiracies on the part of Pollack and/or his agents to wait out the Bengals or play the media to put pressure on the team or anything like that; events were almost certain to fall their way.

[HairOnFire]

A couple of points. First of all, until the James deal came in, the Bengals were not reportedly in a compromising mood, either. All their "giving" has occured since it became plainly obvious that their initial offer was outside the slot. And like I said before, now that the issue of money, guaranteed and other, has been settled, were I Pollack's agents I would not be fussing over escalator triggers.

But the issue of negotiating contract size using incentive triggers is basic stuff, and absolutely essential in the back-and-forth swapping that goes on. Look no further than the O'Dell Thurman negotiations for proof of the Bengals willingness to give away important bargaining points on signing bonus size and easier to earn incentive triggers in exchange for something they value more.

Any agent has to know that the internal and external pressure assumed by the team during a holdout increases dramatically with each passing day so I have little doubt he can win nearly every battle as long as he's willing to hold his client out indefinately. So the agent risks nothing. The real question is if he's actually working in the best interests of his client after a certain point. And in this case I'd have to answer no, because the two sides have been too close for too long not to have a deal in place by now. And last, based upon Marvin's remarks I'm satisfied that the Bengals have always been willing to compromise.

[HairOnFire]

Finally, I will note that all this is based on what little has been publicly available. In the end, when the dust settles and more facts seep out, it may turn out that you are absolutely right.....

That's the real problem that I have with this. We don't know enough to assume that the Bengals are trying to sign Pollack on the cheap, but that's the way the agent is portraying things as he repeatedly negotiates through the media. That tactic gains traction with some fans. As for me, I'm not buying it....mainly because I know how badly the Bengals want this deal signed.

I guess you can look at the numbers slotted and assume that x+y=z, but I'm reminded that Akili Smith's contract was almost 40 pages long. And Peter Warrick's contract, said to be pretty standard boilerplate stuff, was 17 pages long. So I'm betting we'll never know all of the details required to judge whether a final contract offer was fair.

All I know for certain is I hear one side is said to be compromising as they try to break a stalemate. So what's the other side doing? Why is there still no deal when the two sides were never that far apart in the first place?

[HoosierCat]

And last, based upon Marvin's remarks I'm satisfied that the Bengals have always been willing to compromise.

Well, I've been following Hobson's lead this whole time. He appears to have been pretty on the mark, and I saw no reason to doubt him when he wrote:

The sides are not only apart on money, but apparently disagree on what constituted a fair offer until Minnesota signed No. 18 Erasmus James Monday night to complete the slot for the No. 17 Pollack.

So neither side appeared very willing to budge until the James deal set the slot. And that is, after all, pretty much standard procedure for the Bengals front office; they would rather let the market come to them rather than risk the dreaded "overpaying."

That said, at this point, I agree with you: the thing should be done. The money is what it is and neither side can change that now. IMG has, by all appearances, served its client's interests in assuring he got a fair slotted deal, and the matter of getting Pollack into camp ought to take precedence. No matter what the incentive targets, high or low, Pollack won't meet them if he doesn't play.

Is it possible that Kremer & Co. are just dragging things out in the hopes of getting a few more concessions? Oh, yeah, easily. After all, at least from all I can tell, Katie & Troy have pretty much screwed this puppy up from the get-go. IMG's instinct will almost certainly be to keep on squeezing. Pollack needs to step up and call it a day.

[HoosierCat]

That's the real problem that I have with this. We don't know enough to assume that the Bengals are trying to sign Pollack on the cheap, but that's the way the agent is portraying things as he repeatedly negotiates through the media. That tactic gains traction with some fans. As for me, I'm not buying it....mainly because I know how badly the Bengals want this deal signed.

I'm sure they do...but it's been the Bengals who have done the majority of "negotiating through the media." IMG appears to do little but not return reporters' phone calls. It was a "club source," for example, that gave Curnutte the infamous "they thought they could get him signed to a lower deal since he was so eager to play" bit. And all the guaranteed money figures used by both Cincy and Dayton papers were the lower ones favorable to the Bengals. And it was Troy himself who spilled contract details to Ludwig.

Places where you would expect to see the agents try to get their propaganda out -- the national media like espn and even gossip sites like profootballtalk.com -- have been almost completely silent on he Pollack holdout. Heck, we haven't even got a "there go those incompetent bengals again" piece on pft!

If there's been a negotiation in the media, I'd say it's been pretty one-sided.

[HairOnFire]

So neither side appeared very willing to budge until the James deal set the slot. And that is, after all, pretty much standard procedure for the Bengals front office; they would rather let the market come to them rather than risk the dreaded "overpaying."

I've never really argued that point. The Bengals have always been reluctant to set the market and it's hardly surprising that they didn't change their stripes this year knowing the unique circumstances all teams faced.

Where I tend to buck is assuming that the lowball offer was set in stone OR that the lack of a deal means the Bengals aren't interested in winning. Isn't it possible that the Bengals would have upped the signing bonus long ago in favor of more difficult triggers? They always have, right?

Again, the long holdouts usually come when agents refuse to engage in the give and take that the Bengals have made a habit of, preferring the threat of holdout over negotiations. They're under no pressure to negotiate in good faith right away, assume little or no risk holding out the player, and are likely to benefit in some small way by playing extreme hardball. Now consider the fact that the long holdout is an acknowledged part of Kremer's reputation. So why assume that he's negotiating fairly based upon the snippet of information he leaked to the press?

[HairOnFire]

If there's been a negotiation in the media, I'd say it's been pretty one-sided.

I disagree. I'm not very interested in a number mentioned here or there when the bulk of information is deliberately kept hidden from view. In fact, I'd guess that most fans read leaked contract numbers and immediately glaze over or assume they're being played.

What did get my attention are remarks about how Marvin has changed things on the field, but when it comes to money it's the same old Bengals. That's a remark offered specifically to inflame fan frustration and increase pressure on the Bengals to get something done at any cost. And more importantly, it's the type of thing that usually results in talks going off the rails for a couple of days.

[bengalboomer7]

So....How's Peter Warrick doing?

[HairOnFire]

So....How's Peter Warrick doing?

Judging from the dozen or so Peter Warrick threads that are flourishing in every direction you look.....I'd say he's a dead man walking.

Note: Order now restored. Thread firmly back on track.

[HoosierCat]

What did get my attention are remarks about how Marvin has changed things on the field, but when it comes to money it's the same old Bengals. That's a remark offered specifically to inflame fan frustration and increase pressure on the Bengals to get something done at any cost. And more importantly, it's the type of thing that usually results in talks going off the rails for a couple of days.

If it was intended to inflame fans...well, it doesn't seem to have, does it? Whether it had any impact on negotiations...who knows? But the bottom line is that there has been no real pressure, from fans or press, on the Bengals. Both Daughtery and Wheeler weighed in with anti-agent columns. Stories written by Curnutte and Ludwig have had pro-bengals slants -- with the notable exception of the previously mentioned "lesser deal" comment, which itself was attrubuted to a club offical, not a "person familiar with the negotiations" type attribution that would indicate an agent. IMG has consistently issued "no comments" to the local media, and no anti-Bengals stories have appeared in the national sports press. And up until the point that the James signing put the Bengals' $9.5 million offer in a "lowball" light, every internet bengals message board was virulently anti-Pollack. There was even a campaign launched on some other boards to flood the message board on Pollack's own web site with anti-Pollack posts (many of which have been removed but some of which are still there).

I'm sorry, but the only ones I see shooting off their mouths who probably ought to shut up are Bengals reps, particularly Troy Blackburn. Frankly, the whole affair has gotten me wondering if this Pollack negotiation doesn't represent Mike's first hands-off attempt? With Marvin being new and Palmer being so expensive I'm sure he was involved then, and even though he was handing the reins over to the "younger generation" by last year I wonder if he wasn't at least an advisor on the Perry deal. Maybe this year he decided to see how Katie, Troy & Co. did on their own? That's pure speculation, but it would explain why this year has seemed particularly inept...the "kids" are getting their baptism of fire...

[schweinhart]

The next generation of Bungle?

Fans proly should be as inflamed for being force fed fake numbers that made Pollack look like a greedmonger as they are about the slot miscue that sure looks like the cause for prolonging the holdout.

But the good is the SSLB position is gathering volume. Better to know now whether or not Landon can negotiate the tighter quarters and provide any kind of pass rush because I doubt Wilkins can play effectively there. Stevens maybe.

I just hope they don't rush Pollack in when he does sign. He'll be playing a substantially different position and making moves, using muscles in ways he hasn't before.

As for P-Dub, you can't blame the front office there. Sounds like he's gone one way or another.

[HairOnFire]

And up until the point that the James signing put the Bengals' $9.5 million offer in a "lowball" light, every internet bengals message board was virulently anti-Pollack. ...

True. I heard the anti-Pollack sentiment got so bad the the nation of Spain declared war on the state of Georgia, then surrendered five minutes later when the leader of the Spanish army was informed how hot it gets in Atlanta during August. Probably didn't help matters when Spain's navy tried to respond to the call to arms but immediately sank to the bottom of a Barcelona fountain.

[HoosierCat]