HoosierCat Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 That $5.92 mill figure earlier for T. Johnson sure made Pollack seem either greedy or weakminded at the total disposal of demonic agents, eh?At least Hobson has the # over $7 mill. Gotta wonder why $5.92 mill came up three times -- both Cincy papers and Dayton.Pollack seems like he wears his heart on his sleeve when he plays. I gotta think there's been some damage done through "public relations". I hear ya. At least Curnutte has corrected himself and is now using the $7.2 figure (which I interpret as Johnson's $5.92m guaranteed money -- probably signing bonus -- plus the $1.06m roster bonus and his $230k year one salary). The point of contention is likely Johnson's $525k "one-time" playing time incentive. From that "one-time" language, I take it that it's one of those good-for-the-life-of-the-contract type of deals, i.e. if Johnson hits some minimum playing time number (say, 20% of defensive snaps) in any of the next five years he gets the money. Thus it isn't actually guaranteed -- but he'd have to basically fall over dead not to collect.Reports that the deal actually has $7.7 million of guaranteed dough are counting that, I think. But the bengals have always loathed that kind of easy-to-hit incentive, and I can easily see them balking at counting it in the guaranteed pool. They might be willing to offer a similar playing time bonus, but will certainly insist on a "real" goal as opposed to some low number of snaps. In such a case, hopefully Pollack's side will be willing to bend a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 More FWIW...numbers of James' deal from sportsline...James' agents finalized particulars of the deal -- essentially a five-year package worth $9.8 million including about $7.5 million in guaranteed money plus some back-loaded incentives that could raise the total value to $12.3 million -- on Tuesday morning."Back-loaded incentives." I can hear Mikey's teeth grinding now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 "Back-loaded incentives." I can hear Mikey's teeth grinding now... Actually, he might be laughing out loud. At first glance that one smacks of one of those fake provisions that are included soley so an agent can boast about the inflated size of the contract. Maybe it's just me but I find it hard to get upset about a back-loaded incentive included in a 7-year contract that voids to a 5-year deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I have no emotional tie to John Travolta. So while I don't begrudge him the wealth he's earned....it does seem odd. I think I do begrudge him his wealth. What we've been talking about is the right someone has to make large amounts of money when they are among the best in the world at what they do. John Travolta clearly does not fit this role. (I'm also mad that Keanu Reeves makes so much money given that all he learned that all you must do to become successful is look really confused.)Regardless, we've established that we have emotional ties to both the Bengals organization and David Pollack. So at this point, I'd like to see the Bengals organization cough up a little bit more (assuming they have it to give) and Pollack agrees to take a little less than he wants (assuming he hasn't been too ridiculously low-balled), and that way both David Pollack and the Bengals organization can profit.I really don't pretend to know a whole lot about the numbers and the cap talk... but it appears to me that at least some of the teams are trying to play the next collective bargaining agreement, assuming the cap era may be over. (Could this be the reason for the 5 year contracts as opposed to 4?) Seems to me that the Bengals may be acting stingy, but with purpose for the future. Who knows? Not me. Maybe some of you cap/collective bargaining agreement gurus tell me if my hunch has merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spain Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 This twat still hasnt signed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybren Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 For what it's worth, the comparison of a movie star's salary to just about anybody else's is pretty ludicrous. We may all adhere to the same supply-and-demand system when determining our individual worths, but most of us (including football players) don't get to read in Monday morning's paper if the work we did last week is going to make our bosses a profit. Movie stars are generally paid what they can 'bring in' opening weekend. If Cruise or Travolta can't open at $30 million, they don't get paid $30 million the next time around. The big guys also get a big piece of the 'back end' (insert punchline here) which is a straight-forward percentage of the profits, if not the overall revenue. I'm sure Pollack and Company would gladly pass on all the bonuses, incentives, elevators and what-have-you, if such an equitable and straight-forward system existed anywhere else. But on the football portion of the topic, here's my 2 cents...this whole thing is only a topic of conversation because of the emotion we have all invested in this team and this player. Truth of the matter is that this is business, pure and simple, and in business, smart people usually get what they deserve. There's really no other mystery or drama to it. The Bengals think they can get a player for less than the market rate, and they receive a hold-out. Pollack and Company think they can play hardball with the only organization allowed to do business with him, and they receive an offer to take a nice, long Georgia vacation. The sides will eventually come together, if only because they have no other choice that is of any value.In the meantime, all that's left is for us emotionally-invested-but-completely-uninvolved bystanders to go crazy imagining the worst possible scenario for each rumor or theory that we see printed or hear mentioned around the water cooler. The only healthy thing to do is to forget the whole thing and focus on the players who are actually on the field. Or to take up knitting. I hear it's good for focusing your tensions in productive ways. Dr. Cruise even prescribes it for post-partum depression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 "Back-loaded incentives." I can hear Mikey's teeth grinding now...Actually, he might be laughing out loud. At first glance that one smacks of one of those fake provisions that are included soley so an agent can boast about the inflated size of the contract. Very true. But it's aggravating from the point of trying to establish how much of any particular deal falls into the guaranteed, or essentially so, pile. Note the varying reports of the amount of guarantees money in Johnson's deal, as well as in James' (anywhere from $7.03m per Curnutte to about $7.5m per sportsline).Fortunately, according to Hobson's latest update, Pollack's side has apparently accepted a guaranteed amount in the $7.1 million range, although it doesn't appear the bengals have gotten there yet. (Earlier Hobson reports suggested they wanted to guarantee no more that $6.8-$6.9m or so.) And indeed, per Geoff, your prediction has finally come true: haggling has now begun over incentive clauses and how tough they will be to hit (read: the bengals will do something similar to Johnson's playing time bonus but only with "real" targets).Actually, this all sounds pretty hopeful. With any luck, we can get Pollack signed and in camp in time to rush into a few practices, pull a hammy, and sit out all season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmyBengal Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 With any luck, we can get Pollack signed and in camp in time to rush into a few practices, pull a hammy, and sit out all season... Odd, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the article on the site. This should be done real soon. At least lets hope so...WHODEY !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesperateDerelict Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Is it just me, or does it seem we're locked in a delivery room, and the Bengals have been in 'labor' for weeks!ArmyBengal Posted on Aug 10 2005, 08:43 AM (JoiseyCat @ Aug 10 2005, 07:07 AM) With any luck, we can get Pollack signed and in camp in time to rush into a few practices, pull a hammy, and sit out all season... Odd, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the article on the site. This should be done real soon. At least lets hope so...This baby better be healthy, the medical costs are killing me! Who's got the cigars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Orange Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Is it just me, or does it seem we're locked in a delivery room, and the Bengals have been in 'labor' for weeks!ArmyBengal Posted on Aug 10 2005, 08:43 AM (JoiseyCat @ Aug 10 2005, 07:07 AM) With any luck, we can get Pollack signed and in camp in time to rush into a few practices, pull a hammy, and sit out all season... Odd, I was thinking the same thing when I was reading the article on the site. This should be done real soon. At least lets hope so...This baby better be healthy, the medical costs are killing me! Who's got the cigars? My prediction is that while Chris Perry will have a really nice impact on our team this year, Pollack will have about what Perry had last year and will start to shine for us the next...and that will be back to back to back years that our first rounders have done sqwat for us there first years...maybe that's our new ugly MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 My prediction is that while Chris Perry will have a really nice impact on our team this year, Pollack will have about what Perry had last year and will start to shine for us the next...and that will be back to back to back years that our first rounders have done sqwat for us there first years...maybe that's our new ugly MO Hope you're wrong Big O. Palmer sat because he was a QB behind a very successful at the time guy in Kitna.Perry would have been a very nice 3rd down back, had it not been for injuries.Pollack was the first guy in years that the coach drafted with the intention of starting him. That has changed now, but I doubt that missing a couple weeks will effect him so badly that he can't be a very good 3rd down pass rusher.Is this the impact we want out of a a 1st round pick? maybe not, but it is certainly more than the last two guys... and assuming he comes along well, as we all expected just a week or so ago, he should be starting around mid-season.Once again though, I am simply being hopeful because of my emotional attachment to both the well-being of the Bengals, and the success of their 1st round draft pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobengals19 Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 My prediction is that while Chris Perry will have a really nice impact on our team this year, Pollack will have about what Perry had last year and will start to shine for us the next...and that will be back to back to back years that our first rounders have done sqwat for us there first years...maybe that's our new ugly MOI concur. I hope it doesnt happen but the chances are definitely higher than they were 2 weeks ago.For a team modeling themselves after the Patriots, we sure have a funny way of showing it with respect to draft picks. Its amazing but they neever seem to have a problem signing there picks even when they happen [not often lately] to have a high picks or extending contracts.Same ole tightass Mike Brown. Marvin has to be beside himself on this one and untfortunately he did what was best for the team in promoting Johnson to starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Orange Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 My prediction is that while Chris Perry will have a really nice impact on our team this year, Pollack will have about what Perry had last year and will start to shine for us the next...and that will be back to back to back years that our first rounders have done sqwat for us there first years...maybe that's our new ugly MOHope you're wrong Big O. Palmer sat because he was a QB behind a very successful at the time guy in Kitna.Perry would have been a very nice 3rd down back, had it not been for injuries.Pollack was the first guy in years that the coach drafted with the intention of starting him. That has changed now, but I doubt that missing a couple weeks will effect him so badly that he can't be a very good 3rd down pass rusher.Is this the impact we want out of a a 1st round pick? maybe not, but it is certainly more than the last two guys... and assuming he comes along well, as we all expected just a week or so ago, he should be starting around mid-season.Once again though, I am simply being hopeful because of my emotional attachment to both the well-being of the Bengals, and the success of their 1st round draft pick. I'm with you, Shankster...however, what I hope and what I think happen to be 2 different things in this case.Nobody on the whole team needed training camp as badly as Pollack...a guy who is reshaping his body, learning a new position, and expected to start has needed everyone of those 18-20 practice times he has missed.I put this squarely on his shoulders...I don't think the Bengals were or are being cheap, and he will end up signing for almost the same thing as when he started this whole stupidity.He threatened, and the Bengals didn't blink, and now he loses and coincidentaly so will we. This is more of a character issue then anything we've had to deal with Chris Henry on...I know it's a business, but it's more clearly a choice.He controls his agents, and at any time he can say, I want this done by the end of the day and his agents have to get it done, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Once again... I don't know how badly this effects the team. Yes Pollack needed every one of those practices to make an immediate impact... but we know that it is LJ's job now, so no worries. Now Pollack will have plenty of time watching LJ play his position (and play it quite well). Pollack will not get the job again until he earns it, but I truly believe that will be sooner than later.LJ is best served being our backup at all 3 LB positions because of his versatility, and he can be the other MLB in the 3-4. Pollack will get some playing time... I'm sure of it. You don't go from being the projected starter to no playing time at all from missing 18-20 practices.The kid clearly has something that the coaches like, and that isn't going to go away, it's just going to take some more time. If he was really going to be ready to start a new position by opening day... I would assume that he will still be ready fairly early in the season, because he will work his ass off once he gets in there.It's just a matter of time. He'll play this season. He may not win the starting job back right away, but there will be injuries and other circumstances that pave his way into the lineup. He'll still get his shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 More fun with numbers...yesterday Curnutte said James was $7.03m guaranteed, today it's $7.5m...HOLDOUT DAY 13: David Pollack's contract holdout has claimed 13 training camp practices, and the sides are no closer to reaching an agreement than they were last week.Pollack, the 17th overall pick, is back in Snellville, Ga., with his parents. He left his in-season home in Mason last week.Pollack is bracketed financially. Minnesota reached agreement with defensive end Erasmus James, the 18th overall pick.James has a five-year contract worth $9.8 million, $7.5 guaranteed.The No. 16 pick, Texans defensive tackle Travis Johnson, is signed to a five-year deal worth $10.2 million overall, $7.242 guaranteed.Pollack's contract would seem to fit easily in that slot, a common practice for rookie deals.Pollack is one of the six first-round picks unsigned of the 32. No. 8 overall, Arizona Cardinals cornerback Antrel Rolle, agreed to terms Tuesday."We're continuing to have discussions," Tom Condon, one of Pollack's agents, said Tuesday.The Bengals, through media relations director Jack Brennan, declined comment Tuesday on the Pollack negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalboomer7 Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I'm actually more excited thinking he'll be a third down situational pass rusher anyways. Landon already knows the system, is a natural OLB, and a pretty good one for that matter. Pollack is a converted DE that has never played a down of LB anyways. Now he'll have time to adjust, while being able to help the team doing was he does best, rushing the passer. I hoestly think that while this makes Pollacks overall season numbers go down, his sacks and really his overall contribution will go up, and from having less to do in the game, his mistakes will be minimal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekshank Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I'm actually more excited thinking he'll be a third down situational pass rusher anyways. Landon already knows the system, is a natural OLB, and a pretty good one for that matter. Pollack is a converted DE that has never played a down of LB anyways. Now he'll have time to adjust, while being able to help the team doing was he does best, rushing the passer. I hoestly think that while this makes Pollacks overall season numbers go down, his sacks and really his overall contribution will go up, and from having less to do in the game, his mistakes will be minimal Agreed. This hold-out might have been a blessing in disguise. We get LJ back in the starting lineup again. I love that guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsfan2 Posted August 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 I put this squarely on his shoulders...I don't think the Bengals were or are being cheap, and he will end up signing for almost the same thing as when he started this whole stupidity. " Also pulling at the gap is the sense the two sides are very much aware of the other's reputation as hard liners ." This quote from Bengals.com ( imho ) puts the blame squarely where it belongs ... on the Bengals AND the Agents. If anything, it sounds like these two are in a game of one upmanship with Pollack in the middle. Both seem to have gone into this thing more concerned about their image ( as tough negotiators ) than about getting Pollack a deal. At this point, I'm inclined to give Pollack a bye on this one. I've put myself ( and trust ) in the hands of people who as it turned out weren't really working in my best interests. It seems to me that the only thing Pollack is guilty of is doing a poor job of picking his agents. I hope he's learned a lesson from this, and I also hope that CJ and his new agent have watched how this one has gone.Plenty of lessons to go around for everyone concerned. Hope they weren't lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 And indeed, per Geoff, your prediction has finally come true: haggling has now begun over incentive clauses and how tough they will be to hit (read: the bengals will do something similar to Johnson's playing time bonus but only with "real" targets). Isn't this the part of our story where you gracefully tip your cap towards the California shore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 Actually, this all sounds pretty hopeful. With any luck, we can get Pollack signed and in camp in time to rush into a few practices, pull a hammy, and sit out all season... Yup, even as we speak Shawn Merriman is having hamstring problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierCat Posted August 10, 2005 Report Share Posted August 10, 2005 And indeed, per Geoff, your prediction has finally come true: haggling has now begun over incentive clauses and how tough they will be to hit (read: the bengals will do something similar to Johnson's playing time bonus but only with "real" targets).Isn't this the part of our story where you gracefully tip your cap towards the California shore? I don't wear hats. <lifts beer> Here's to ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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