Kitna vs. Palmer

[HoosierCat]

Before we begin, I, JoiseyCriswell, will make two predictions: First, I predict that between now and July, the number of "Kitna vs. Palmer" posts on Bengals internet message boards will exceed one billion.

Secnd, I predict that not one single mind will be changed on the subject.

With that, here's the Post's Lonnie Wheeler on the subject (link to full story follows):

Kitna was unable to do [get the Bengals into the playoffs] this year, but why must this year be his ceiling? The Bengals, almost certainly, will continue to improve under Lewis's comprehensive guidance, and if Kitna could will them to eight wins, why couldn't he lead them to 11?

Why not give Palmer a second training camp -- it would be his first in the possession of professional knowledge -- without the strain of carrying his team over a threshhold? If the playoffs are slipping away in the sixth week or so, the former Heisman Trophy winner would be all the more ready for his role.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/01/05/wheele...01-05-2004.html

My never-so-humble opinion: there's really no other choice than a competition. When the 2003 season began, it was understood that Kitna was simply keeping the seat warm. He was an adequate veteran QB with experience in the system who would allow the Bengals the luxury of sitting the Great Heismann Hope for a year. But the job was destined for Carson's hands; in 2003, if Kitna faltered, in 2004 if not.

However, the best-laid plans of mice and Marvins are always subject to that beyotch known as "reality," and the the reality of Kitna's 2003 performance is that he played well enough to play himself *into* a starter's role; into competition with Palmer. He did precisely what I feared at the beginning of this year when he said he thought this would be "a Pro Bowl-type year." He went and had it.

Not, of course, that this is a *bad* problem to have . It certainly beats the alternative: not having a starting-caliber QB at all. Been there, done that, right?

I don't think that *either* Carson or Jon can be "stiffed" out of the starting spot by coaching fiat. Doing so simply encourages the team to develop factions, something it's had all too many of in recent years. No, Marvin's hands are tied: he has to let the two duke it out.

Where I think Wheeler's analysis fails is the comparision to the Kitna-Frerotte-Smith competition debacle. For one thing, there arguably wasn't an NFL-caliber starting QB in the bunch. It was like choosing between stink, stank, and stunk. Second, a three-headed competition is madness; there just aren't enough snaps to go around. A two-man duel is at least manageable. And thirdly, unlike two years ago, Kitna will enter as the default guy. Will. Whether he wins is an open question.

And "open" is my one word of advice to Marvin about this contest. Don't act like Butch Davis in Cleveland and keep everything secret. Let the situation develop, let your players talk about it (as long as they're not just ripping one of the two, which seems unlikely) and let the best man win.

I suspect Marvin already understands about that "best man" thing, tho...

[Kirkendall]

Joisey, great stuff man.

My thoughts (not rebutting you, just my 2 cents):

I have been pro-Kitna since he's come into the organization, he's never had the talent around him to succeed. Now he has the receivers and both have career years. Two young linemen, hopefully develop more should give Kitna more consideration to being the starter next year. My honest opinion is that it's Kitnas job until he loses it, this is isn't in consideration of the $ factor, but football logic.

Is Kitna the man of the future? Probably not, it's Carson's job, we all can agree. Kitna played well this year and the offensive stats provide that. Now, our biggest worry is the defense and that should be what we discuss, but since this is a QB thread I won't go into it.

First, I predict that between now and July, the number of "Kitna vs. Palmer" posts on Bengals internet message boards will exceed one billion.

I think we exceed that already..

Secnd, I predict that not one single mind will be changed on the subject.

HAHA, probably true.

Personally, I think the top five problems on this team doesn't even go into QB'ing. But you are right, what a great QB problem we have.

[jjakq27]

How many years did Steve Young back-up Joe Montana in SF? Not that I am comparing Kitna and Palmer to those two. Young was more than ready when he finally got his chance. One big difference was that Young got live snaps in the USFL.

[Kirkendall]

Are you suggesting Palmer goes to NFL Europe or a development league as such? Might not be a bad idea. Makes one ponder, doesn't it?

[jjakq27]

Are you suggesting Palmer goes to NFL Europe or a development league as such? Might not be a bad idea. Makes one ponder, doesn't it?

No my point was that Young certainly benefited from backing up Montana until he went to KC. But he did get plenty of reps (two years?) while in the USFL.

But your question about NFL Europe is intriguing. But is it worth the risk of him getting hurt there?

I would love to ask Coach Lewis about the extra snaps that they gave Palmer during the two weeks off during the bye. Where they conseding something when they went to the bye at 1-4? Remember how badly we felt after they lost to Buffalo??

I felt at the time that if they lost many more they would bench Kitna and Palmer would be in for the Arizona or Houston game. However JK proved everyone wrong (again) when the Bengals won the Baltimore and Seattle games after the bye week.

[HoosierCat]

Are you suggesting Palmer goes to NFL Europe or a development league as such? Might not be a bad idea. Makes one ponder, doesn't it?

Yes. Yes, it does. There are arguments against it, primarily that you would rather have him here concentrating on the Bengals playbook and playing pitch 'n' catch with Bengals receivers and watching film with Bengals coaches and attending Bengals minicamps -- rather than concentrating on the Frankfurt Galaxy's (or whoever's) playbook, receivers, coaches, etc.

But that said, I'm not sure that all that offseason folderol would be better that some real live games, even in NFLE.

It'll never happen, of course. What if he rips his ACL in two and ends his pro career? Welcome to an injury settlement nightmare. Of course, that *would* solve the QB competition problem...

PS thanks for the kind comments, kirk.

[The Brew Man]

Having a competition could go one of two ways. 1) it totally fires up one or both of the Qbs and makes them both better, with a winner being declared at the end, or 2) it crushes a young QBs confidence and at the same time sours a veteran coming off his best season ever.....

not easy.

[HoosierCat]

Having a competition could go one of two ways. 1) it totally fires up one or both of the Qbs and makes them both better, with a winner being declared at the end, or 2) it crushes a young QBs confidence and at the same time sours a veteran coming off his best season ever.....

not easy.

Not easy at all. It's a balancing act, no doubt. One reason I have hope that it could work out OK, tho, is that both QBs appear to be (for lack of a better term) grown-ups. Carson is clearly anxious for a shot, but lacks the petulance of Akili Smith. Were Jeff Blake in Kitna's shoes, he would no doubt be complaining about the organization's lack of loyalty. And each would be sniping at the other. That could change, of course; one LeBeau-like Frerotte-over-Kitna-even-though-he-didn't-play-better moment and it could all go kablooey. But I have confidence that Marvin will make the call based on how they play, not how they're paid.

[Arizona]

Okay, this is very interesting, but let me remind you people that you are not the Bungles anymore. You have a great coach, who keeps class guys in the organization. If you have a QB competition, it will only make everyone better. Don't draw comparisons to what happened during the last decade. Compare yourself to other good teams and see how it goes.

[redsfan2]

Okay, this is very interesting, but let me remind you people that you are not the Bungles anymore.  You have a great coach, who keeps class guys in the organization.  If you have a QB competition, it will only make everyone better.  Don't draw comparisons to what happened during the last decade.  Compare yourself to other good teams and see how it goes.

Jeezzz ! You know things are rough when you start agreeing with the Ravens fans. A lot of teams do not announce the starting qb till the last pre season game or even the opener of the regular season. It's never considered to be a controversy unless the media keeps saying it is, or unless you've got a little scab like Flutie running around butt stabbing the other guys.

Pre seaon is to get your starting lineup set and establish the depth chart. You never hear about an offensive guard controversy or a linebacker controversy, so what is the big deal about letting the qb's compete fairly for the starting job ???????? If Palmer is the real deal, and is able to demonstrate that clearly in the pre season, then he should play. Given coach Lewis' history, if he can't ...... he won't. It really is that simple. If Kitna beats Plamer out, that doesn't mean that Palmers no good or a bust. It means that at this point in time that Kitna is the better of the 2. Remember, Kitna has a huge advantage in experience. You also have to remember that KItna and Palmer are very supportive of each other and the team. Both want the team to win and are willing to fill the role that gives them the best chance to do it.

We are very lucky to have 2 guys at the same position that feel that way. I think it will end up with Plamer starting. If not, then I think he'll prepare as the #2 to step in and take over if needed. I'm positive that he won't pull a Kilngler and start eating lunch in his car. It's a win win situation fellas ..... lighten up and enjoy the suspense of waiting to see how it turns out.

[kevnz]

Well I think it should be a competion. Splitting time won't hurt Kitna now, he has shown he has total command of the offense. Palmer needs time with the first string (even if he stays the backup, every backup QB needs time with the first offense) Even if Coach Lewis has no plans to start Palmer (but I think he does) he knows he needs to get out there and play with the starters to continue his development.

[redsfan2]

Before we begin, I, JoiseyCriswell, will make two predictions: First, I predict that between now and July, the number of "Kitna vs. Palmer" posts on Bengals internet message boards will exceed one billion.

Secnd, I predict that not one single mind will be changed on the subject.

With that, here's the Post's Lonnie Wheeler on the subject (link to full story follows):

Kitna was unable to do [get the Bengals into the playoffs] this year, but why must this year be his ceiling? The Bengals, almost certainly, will continue to improve under Lewis's comprehensive guidance, and if Kitna could will them to eight wins, why couldn't he lead them to 11?

Why not give Palmer a second training camp -- it would be his first in the possession of professional knowledge -- without the strain of carrying his team over a threshhold? If the playoffs are slipping away in the sixth week or so, the former Heisman Trophy winner would be all the more ready for his role.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/01/05/wheele...01-05-2004.html

My never-so-humble opinion: there's really no other choice than a competition. When the 2003 season began, it was understood that Kitna was simply keeping the seat warm. He was an adequate veteran QB with experience in the system who would allow the Bengals the luxury of sitting the Great Heismann Hope for a year. But the job was destined for Carson's hands; in 2003, if Kitna faltered, in 2004 if not.

However, the best-laid plans of mice and Marvins are always subject to that beyotch known as "reality," and the the reality of Kitna's 2003 performance is that he played well enough to play himself *into* a starter's role; into competition with Palmer. He did precisely what I feared at the beginning of this year when he said he thought this would be "a Pro Bowl-type year." He went and had it.

Not, of course, that this is a *bad* problem to have . It certainly beats the alternative: not having a starting-caliber QB at all. Been there, done that, right?

I don't think that *either* Carson or Jon can be "stiffed" out of the starting spot by coaching fiat. Doing so simply encourages the team to develop factions, something it's had all too many of in recent years. No, Marvin's hands are tied: he has to let the two duke it out.

Where I think Wheeler's analysis fails is the comparision to the Kitna-Frerotte-Smith competition debacle. For one thing, there arguably wasn't an NFL-caliber starting QB in the bunch. It was like choosing between stink, stank, and stunk. Second, a three-headed competition is madness; there just aren't enough snaps to go around. A two-man duel is at least manageable. And thirdly, unlike two years ago, Kitna will enter as the default guy. Will. Whether he wins is an open question.

And "open" is my one word of advice to Marvin about this contest. Don't act like Butch Davis in Cleveland and keep everything secret. Let the situation develop, let your players talk about it (as long as they're not just ripping one of the two, which seems unlikely) and let the best man win.

I suspect Marvin already understands about that "best man" thing, tho...

The way this has spilled over on other threads, you may want to increase your estimate. So far, Ithnk you're ahead of schedule.

[Kirkendall]

I think in each thread you go to, you'll see someone chanting Palmer in the background and another chanting Kitna. Man, it's not even our top five problems on the team and that and the Rose discussion has been ruling the boards.

[HoosierCat]

I think in each thread you go to, you'll see someone chanting Palmer in the background and another chanting Kitna. Man, it's not even our top five problems on the team and that and the Rose discussion has been ruling the boards.

"Man, it's not even our top five problems on the team"

Isn't it?

Just for sheots & giggles, consider this proposition: the primary blame for the Bengals not making the playoffs in 2003 falls on the offense.

Yup, the offense.

That many seem a little outlandish, considering our poor defense...but our defense was equally poor whether we won or lost. In 8 wins, the Bengals gave up 195 points, or about 24.4 points a game. In 8 losses, the Bengals allowed 189 points, or 23.6 a game. Yup, the Bengals actually gave up 0.8 *fewer* points pr game in their losses than in their wins.

Now look at the offense: in 8 wins, the Bengals posted 239 points, or 29.9/game. In 8 losses, they managed 107 points, or an anemic 13.4 a game. That's a 3-score, 16.5 (!!!) point gap.

Not coincidentally, it's in those 8 losses that Kitna had virtually all of his turnover, and only a few of his TD passes.

Now, we can go through game-by-game and likely find reasons (injuries, illnesses, early season jitters, whatever) to excuse many of Kitna's poorer outings. But...those same situations are quite likely to arise again in any given year. People get hurt, people get sick, etc. If Kitna can only win when surrounded by a whole, healthy team...well, why *not* give Palmer a shot. Certainly he should be able to win in a similar situation, and maybe he can win in less than perfect conditions, too.

Personally, I think Kitna/Palmer is the toughest and most important call Marvin will make this offseason.

[redsfan2]

Yeah ................... I don't know.

Not saying the offense can't improve, ( a young qb with a strong arm maybe ? ) but the defense really dropped the ball. I see what you're saying about total points, but consider...

In games we scored under 20 points - 0 and 7

When scoring in the 20's - 4 and 1

When scoring in the 30's 3 and 0

" " 40's - 1 and 0

In Buffalo if the defense stops a Bills reciever who hasn't caught a ball all day on 3rd and 20, we most likely get a W

In Cincinnati if the defense can't hold the Browns .......... I don't even want to talk about it. The Browns ran over the Bengals ............... THE BROWNS fer crissakes !

Any way when the offense absolutely has to score over 20 points to have any chance at all of winning, it points to problems on defense.

[richmond_mat]

but consider...

In games we scored under 20 points - 0 and 7

When scoring in the 20's -      4 and 1

When scoring in the 30's      3 and 0

"                    " 40's        -    1 and 0

Remember wicshy wyche, daggamdoggonit

SCORE 30 AND WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO WIN.

GREAT OFFENSE BEATS GREAT DEFENSE, most of the time. But this isn't why I entered this thread.

First and foremost in Pro ball you need a stable quarterback. Kitna just completed his eighth year of nfl football. When Kenny Anderson finished his eighth year of nfl football in 1978 He had mediocre stats and the Bengals stank.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...rs/AndeKe00.htm

A number three pick came with it and along came the throwin samoan rookie named Jack Thompson. The bengals were worse in 1979.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team...ms/cinindex.htm

Anderson persevered, the Bengals traded #3 to the Bucs a few years later.

My point is this:

Let it play out like Boomer did. The kid rides the pine until he outplays Kitna or kitna gets hurt and he plays great as a replacement. It's the expensive way to deal with it, but kitna might take a pay cut.

Some teams can win without a stable qb position but it is rare.

The ravens compensate by dominating most other aspects of the game.

[Kirkendall]

Good stuff man and great points... But let me expand on that thought.

This is where I think the argument of putting Palmer in does NOT justify team success based off Bengal losses in which the defense gave up quick scores early. The defense forces the offense to come from behind, and while I agree that Palmer COULD (I don't know yet, he hasn’t shown me anything) come back in that type of situation, they should NOT be in that predicament anyway. Stats tend to get overrated when they tend to NOT reflect the aspect of each game, the environment or the situations.

Lets look at Time of Possession. Most think this is the offenses inability to continue drives. While that may perpetrate the affects, it narrowly and blindly fails to look at the defenses inability to stop the run or stop the opposing offense on third down. Great defenses are better suited to win championships now adays than great offenses. Look at the last 3 champs, they support this argument.

Bengals record in which the TOP favors Cincinnati: 6-2

Bengals record in which the TOP favors Opponents: 2-6

So while we are euphoric about our number one draft pick who hasn't thrown a pass, hasn't shouted an audible, hasn't called a play in the huddle with 10 other guys; lets not overlook the defenses problems (which rate no.1 because Marvin even said he's going after Defense in draft and FA), lets not forget the poor punting by Richardson (hopefully a one year struggle for he's back next season) our offensive line (3 free agents), or the running backs (because technically, we still have a chance of losing Rudi, just keep that as well in mind while Corey is on the team).

As for Kitna, we could compare Kitnas stats with Brady's, who are nearly identical and see the one difference is the defense which promotes 6 additional wins. And while Cincinnati is hoping that Palmer is the sole player to take us to the next level, then we're expecting too much and disappointment is just over the horizon.

I’m not arguing the Palmer vs. Kitna discussion. I’m talking about prioritizing our off-season in which the QB deal, shouldn’t be as high as most other aspects.

Remember Dan Marino, a great QB without a championship because he lacked a running game or a defense. I’m not going further into this argument, I just think we have many more concerns than our GREAT QB situation (I refuse to call it a controversy).

[redsfan2]

Good stuff man and great points... But let me expand on that thought.

This is where I think the argument of putting Palmer in does NOT justify team success based off Bengal losses in which the defense gave up quick scores early. The defense forces the offense to come from behind, and while I agree that Palmer COULD (I don't know yet, he hasn’t shown me anything) come back in that type of situation, they should NOT be in that predicament anyway. Stats tend to get overrated when they tend to NOT reflect the aspect of each game, the environment or the situations.

Lets look at Time of Possession. Most think this is the offenses inability to continue drives. While that may perpetrate the affects, it narrowly and blindly fails to look at the defenses inability to stop the run or stop the opposing offense on third down. Great defenses are better suited to win championships now adays than great offenses. Look at the last 3 champs, they support this argument.

Bengals record in which the TOP favors Cincinnati: 6-2

Bengals record in which the TOP favors Opponents: 2-6

So while we are euphoric about our number one draft pick who hasn't thrown a pass, hasn't shouted an audible, hasn't called a play in the huddle with 10 other guys; lets not overlook the defenses problems (which rate no.1 because Marvin even said he's going after Defense in draft and FA), lets not forget the poor punting by Richardson (hopefully a one year struggle for he's back next season) our offensive line (3 free agents), or the running backs (because technically, we still have a chance of losing Rudi, just keep that as well in mind while Corey is on the team).

As for Kitna, we could compare Kitnas stats with Brady's, who are nearly identical and see the one difference is the defense which promotes 6 additional wins. And while Cincinnati is hoping that Palmer is the sole player to take us to the next level, then we're expecting too much and disappointment is just over the horizon.

I’m not arguing the Palmer vs. Kitna discussion. I’m talking about prioritizing our off-season in which the QB deal, shouldn’t be as high as most other aspects.

Remember Dan Marino, a great QB without a championship because he lacked a running game or a defense. I’m not going further into this argument, I just think we have many more concerns than our GREAT QB situation (I refuse to call it a controversy).

I like this discussion in general, but before we go too far .................. my blurb about a strong armed young qb to improve the offense was meant as a joke.

Not that I don't think Palmer will be good, it's just that I think the quarterback was not the main problem with the offense. I think it was the line. In most of the losses, Kitna was constantly harrassed and not given the time to throw. That problem was exacerbated by the total absence of a running game. Blame Kitna for the losses if you want due to the int's ......... remember though it throws off a qb's balance when he's got a 295 pound de hanging off his arm. I would imagine it's also distracting as hell.

Conversely, when Kitna had the time, he routinely picked defenses to pieces. A couple of pretty good ones at that.

No matter who gets the start, the O line needs to be fixed first. As long as we're at it, we need more production out of the #2 receiver as well. A single tight end that can catch AND block as the situation dictates, and another running back.

[HoosierCat]

Any way when the offense absolutely has to score over 20 points to have any chance at all of winning, it points to problems on defense.

Again, I wouldn't argue we don't need to improve the D. But to flip your point around, when your offense can't score more than 13-14 points, you aren't going to win many games unless your defensive starters are also members of the Justice League. Heck, the '85 Bears defense, one of (if not the) greatest of all time still gave up an average of 12-13 points a game.

[HoosierCat]

So while we are euphoric about our number one draft pick who hasn't thrown a pass, hasn't shouted an audible, hasn't called a play in the huddle with 10 other guys; lets not overlook the defenses problems (which rate no.1 because Marvin even said he's going after Defense in draft and FA), lets not forget the poor punting by Richardson (hopefully a one year struggle for he's back next season) our offensive line (3 free agents), or the running backs (because technically, we still have a chance of losing Rudi, just keep that as well in mind while Corey is on the team).

I wouldn't forget about any of those issues. But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think the QB decision trumps them all. You can always switch punters or running backs or even offensive linemen in mid-stream. If we give the wrong QB all the snaps in camp, that'll be a lot harder to overcome.

[HoosierCat]

Not that I don't think Palmer will be good, it's just that I think the quarterback was not the main problem with the offense. I think it was the line. In most of the losses, Kitna was constantly harrassed and not given the time to throw. That problem was exacerbated by the total absence of a running game. Blame Kitna for the losses if you want due to the int's ......... remember though it throws off a qb's balance when he's got a 295 pound de hanging off his arm. I would imagine it's also distracting as hell.

Conversely, when Kitna had the time, he routinely picked defenses to pieces. A couple of pretty good ones at that.

And therein lies the heart of the choice between Kitna and Palmer. Given a solid offensive line, two or three quality wideouts, a decent tight end, and a running game able to generate 80 or 100 yards, Kitna is capable of succeeding. Give him all the tools, and he can win.

Problem is, when he loses a tool, it directly reduces his effectiveness. Kitna -- unlike, say, a Favre or McNair or Bulger -- brings nothing beyond his ability to effectively use a complete set of tools.

Now, that is *not* an insignificant or everyday skill. And the fact that Kitna's performance seems to drop so dramatically when the RB pulls a groin or one of his tackles has a bad wheel or his No. 2 receiver is out due to knee surgery or whatever says a hell of a lot about our lack of depth. But you want a QB that the opposing defense has to account for...not one who is wholly dependent on the players around him to succeed.

The problem is, we have no idea if Palmer is that guy or not. So, do you go with the safe play, Kitna, hope for the best re injuries and illnesses, and work to shore up depth so you have better alternatives than Scott Rehberg and TJ? Or do you roll the dice, pick Palmer, and cross your fingers that he can manage a game half as well when the team is whole, and whip up a few miracles when it isn't?

[Kirkendall]

Joisey, did you just triple post?

Honestly, this topic will be raging on in this forum (the best on the web that I've encountered) until the day Marvin decides. Well then I'm sure we'll all be second guessing based on the position taken.

I'm not against Palmer. But this issue can't be drug out; I think Marvin needs to resolve this before draft day and be done with it. Maybe before the first workouts, but I'm not sure how he'll decide.

Well maybe RedsFan and I are the only geniuses. Me be smart

Just kidding.

[redsfan2]

This and the birthday thread have elicited more responses than I would have ever guessed.

Thing is that the Palmer issue is really just symptomatic of what we all feel about the team. They played better than we thought they would and won more games than most of us thought they could ............ BUT ........... there's still a long way to go on both sides of the ball before we are consistently fielding a contender.

As soon as the Palmer / Kitna issue is put to bed, it'll be cornerback or linebacker. Then it'll be center or guard or stick with what we got. Then, it'll just go on from there. That's OK though. These are the most interesting sports discussions that I get to have.

Joisey did triple post, but he had a lot to say to a lot of people. That's the great thing about group discussions.

[richmond_mat]

As soon as the Palmer / Kitna issue is put to bed, it'll be cornerback or linebacker. Then it'll be center or guard or stick with what we got. Then, it'll just go on from there. That's OK though. These are the most interesting sports discussions that I get to have.

Joisey did triple post, but he had a lot to say to a lot of people. That's the great thing about group discussions.

Redafan2 I want to have a beer with you.

As for the center, I like Richie Braham's toughness. We need to draft a youngster to watch him play and be coached by him.

How about a draftee to return punts? The boy at Maryland sure looked good (but so did the WHOLE team).

[redsfan2]

Redafan2 I want to have a beer with you.

As for the center, I like Richie Braham's toughness. We need to draft a youngster to watch him play and be coached by him.

How about a draftee to return punts? The boy at Maryland sure looked good (but so did the WHOLE team).