Rose ADMITS!

[Kirkendall]

Here's the AP Report...

NEW YORK - After 14 years of denials, Pete Rose has finally come clean and admitted he bet on baseball while manager of the Cincinnati Reds.

The career hits leader says in his soon-to-be-released autobiography that he hopes the acknowledgment will help end his ban from baseball, which could lead to his induction into the Hall of Fame.

Rose says he was a big-time gambler who started betting regularly on baseball in 1987 but never against the Reds, according to excerpts from the book released to Sports Illustrated for its issue that hits newsstands Wednesday.

"Yes, sir, I did bet on baseball," Rose told commissioner Bud Selig during a meeting in November 2002 about Rose's lifetime ban.

"How often?" Selig asked.

"Four or five times a week," Rose replied. "But I never bet against my own team, and I never made any bets from the clubhouse."

"Why?" Selig asked.

"I didn't think I'd get caught."

Rose repeated his admission in an interview on ABC News' "Primetime Thursday," parts of which aired Monday on "Good Morning America."

"It's time to clean the slate, it's time to take responsibility," Rose says in the interview. "I'm 14 years late.

"I just never had the opportunity to tell anybody that was going to help me. ... I couldn't get a response from baseball for 12 years. It's like I died and, and they knew I died and they didn't want to bring me back. They were just going to let me rot."

In "My Prison Without Bars," to be released Thursday, Rose writes that he regrets lying for all those years and says, "I wish I could take it all back."

"I've consistently heard the statement: 'If Pete Rose came clean, all would be forgiven.' Well, I've done what you've asked. The rest is up to the commissioner and the big umpire in the sky."

Rose agreed to the lifetime ban in August 1989 and applied for reinstatement in 1997, but Selig hasn't ruled on the request.

After meeting with Selig, Rose came away thinking he would be reinstated "within a reasonable period." Other baseball officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the following month that Selig wanted Rose to admit he bet on baseball as part of any reinstatement agreement.

"We haven't seen the book. Until we read the book, there's nothing to comment on," Selig told The Associated Press on Sunday night.

As long as Rose is banned from baseball, he is ineligible for the Hall of Fame ballot. His last chance to appear on the writers' ballot is December 2005. After that, if he's reinstated, he could be voted in by the veterans' committee.

Rose wrote that if he "had been an alcoholic or a drug addict, baseball would have suspended me for six weeks and paid for my rehabilitation."

"I should have had the opportunity to get help, but baseball had no fancy rehab for gamblers like they do for drug addicts," Rose wrote. "If I had admitted my guilt, it would have been the same as putting my head on the chopping block — lifetime ban. Death penalty. I spent my entire life on the baseball fields of America, and I was not going to give up my profession without first seeing some hard evidence. ... Right or wrong, the punishment didn't fit the crime — so I denied the crime."

In the book, Rose admits placing bets with Ronald Peters through Thomas Gioiosa and Paul Janszen — the three were the primary witnesses in the 1989 investigation by baseball lawyer John Dowd that led to the agreement in which Rose accepted a lifetime ban.

Dowd concluded Rose bet on baseball from 1985-87 and detailed 412 baseball wagers between April 8-July 5, 1987, including 52 on Cincinnati to win.

"During the times I gambled as a manager, I never took an unfair advantage," Rose wrote. "I never bet more or less based on injuries or inside information. I never allowed my wagers to influence my baseball decisions. So in my mind, I wasn't corrupt."

Former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent said Sunday: "I think John Dowd is owed a big apology by Rose.

"John is the hero. He did a great job. Now Rose admits John was correct," Vincent said.

Rose wrote that after breaking Ty Cobb's career hits record in 1985, and as he dealt with retirement as a player the following year, his betting became more of a problem. He details losing several hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"I didn't realize it at the time, but I was pushing toward disaster," he wrote. "A part of me was still looking for ways to recapture the high I got from winning batting titles and World Series (news - web sites). If I couldn't get the high from playing baseball, then I needed a substitute to keep from feeling depressed. I was driven, in gambling as well as in baseball. Enough was never enough. I had huge appetites, and I was always hungry."

Asked during the ABC News interview what fans think about him, Rose said: "I think the powers that be in baseball understand that, 'Hey, maybe the fans like this guy. Maybe the fans want, want us to give him a second chance.'"

[jjakq27]

I am as big of a Pete Rose fan as there is but I always felt like he had to come clean in order to get reinstated. It is too bad this took so long.

I know a lot of people believed Pete was innocent, but I know most people would be out to prove their innocence. I never really saw that with Pete. He made some accusations against Janzen and Giossa (sp) but he was never able to refute the what was brought against him nor did he really try.

Hopefully this will get him into the Hall of Fame which he deserves.

But I don't want to hear anybody talk about protecting the integrity of the game. Remember Gaylord Perry? He openly cheated. Everyone thought that was "cute" or funny cause they couldn't catch him.

Or if Dave Parker muffed a flyball for the Reds in RF. Then later we find out he is accused of cocaine use and I have to wonder if he missed it because he was stoned.

And now I wonder about all of the HR records set in the last 5 years. Are they 'roid related? Did McGuire really break Maris' record and did Bonds really break McGuire's? Or was it the juice? You know Sammy looked alot slimmer after he got busted for the corked bat. Look at pictures of him from a few years ago. He was really bulked up and bloated. Just my opinion.

Good Luck Pete...stay clean.

[Kirkendall]

But I don't want to hear anybody talk about protecting the integrity of the game

Difference is that gambling is one thing in baseball that has strickly defended itself against. Gambling is a destructive source in any sport if it were to run rampent, it could destroy any sport. I truly believe that gambling is the worst offense in sports that commands the harshest punishment. While juicing the ball or pumping roids is bad, it works off the players physical attributes; they hurt the game, gambling potentially could destroy.

Should he be in the hall? Sure. Should he be active in baseball? Not until he's proven that he does not gamble completely now, not even legal gambling then put him on a lifetime probationary period.

[BengalszoneBilly]

The ONLY thing that matters to me? He NEVER bet against the Reds. His betting on baseball to me was no more greivous than an office pool, due to that fact. He never threw a game to win a bet, and he never would.

I worship Pete Rose, and the way he played the game. We're all human, and make mistakes. He's no different, so the one of us without sin, please cast the first stone!

Pete Rose DESERVES the Hall Of Fame with no reservations!!

[jjakq27]

I can see Pete getting on the ballot for the Dec. 2004 vote but I don't think he will be voted in on the first ballot just out of principle. I do think that he will then be elected on the Dec. 2005 ballot for 2006 enshrinement.

[The Brew Man]

Pete is an idiot wrapped in a moron. However, hes one of the best players ever to play baseball, I say, let him in the Hall, but nowhere near baseball.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Pete is an idiot wrapped in a moron. However, hes one of the best players ever to play baseball, I say, let him in the Hall, but nowhere near baseball.

I'll go with that. As far as an idiot, I dunno. Gambling is DEFINITELY his weakness though.

[Kirkendall]

I do think that he will then be elected on the Dec. 2005 ballot for 2006 enshrinement.

He's only eligible through the 2005 year, not after. So it has to happen this year or next or it has to be taken to the veterans committee.

[jjakq27]

I do think that he will then be elected on the Dec. 2005 ballot for 2006 enshrinement.

He's only eligible through the 2005 year, not after. So it has to happen this year or next or it has to be taken to the veterans committee.

If I understand correctly, he would have two ballots to make it on. The one in Dec. 2004 is for induction in 2005 and Dec 2005 is for 2006 induction.

Just like the guys for 2004 were on the ballot in Dec. 2003. At least that 's the way I understand it.

[Kirkendall]

Regardless, he has two years of eligibility left.

The one thing I think, and I've been up and down on the issue, is that I don't think Rose should be allowed in the hall. He broke the biggest rule in all of baseball and has shown absolutely ZERO remorse. Why didn't he announce it while in Cincy? Why isn't he in CINCY?! Where is he now? Why isn't he showing the true attachment to the only city that has embraced him through all his turbulent years?

Also, why is he doing it now? Why right before his book and the major money deal with ABC to announce? He doesn't give a damn about the sport! He won't do autograph signings for less that $15,000? He's plainly a lost cause.

I would support Selig (I hate him bad) if allowed Rose back into baseball, even for a Hall of Fame ballot. BTW - If he were to get inducted, more than half of the current HOFers would leave in protest, BASEBALL DOES NOT NEED THAT NOW!

He's a jerk, a classless moron, a con man, prisoner, would sell his career for a few bucks (oh wait) and should NOT be given forgiveness.

[redsfan2]

Pete said that he had been told by Selig that if he came clean, he would be re - instated in a timely fashion.

#1, now that he's admitted that he's been lying for 14 years, I'd like to hear that from Selig before I believe it.

#2, if that is the case, then I think since he's been denying it for 14 years ....... then a " timely fashion " would be to re - instate him ............... in 14 years.

After that time, I think he could only be inducted by the veterans committee, and if that happened then they couldn't very well ask to be removed in protest.

To answer some of your questions ....... Pete did this at this time to make money.

He's not in Cincy because ........... there's no money in it.

The only True Attachment Pete has ever had was to himself.

You didn't add the most obvious to his list of character traits - LIAR.

Pete's assertion that if he had used drugs instead of betting, that he would have been re - instated long ago makes a better argument for harsher penalties for those types that it does for leniency for him.

To this day when I watch film clips of him playing the hair on my arms stands up. I quite literally get chills. If he had been just half as good a person as he was a ball player, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[BengalszoneBilly]

You didn't add the most obvious to his list of character traits - LIAR.

C'mon redsfan2. You haven't told a couple lies in your life? I told one tonight trying to get laid, for "Petes" sake (;!

All in all, nothing in comparison to the situation Pete found himself in. The evidence against him was accumulated by a non-official commitee, meaning they didn't have to follow the rules of law. Had I been up against such an "Ad-hoc" tribunal, the words "Kiss My Ass" couldn't have rolled off my lips fast enough. For him to deny what we all know what really happened for 14 years is basic law practice 101!

The bottom line to me is he NEVER BET AGAINST THE CINCINNATI REDS! To hold him out for another 14 years is ludicrous. He's paid his price, and Fay Vincent couldn't carry Pete's jockstrap for promoting our National Pastime, betting aside!!

It's over. He admitted it. No harm, no foul. How did it irreputably damage this great game of baseball? It didn't! Not one iota. No one ever brings that up. Well I ask that now. Give me a list of the damages, and I'll start rooting against his immediate induction into the Hall Of Fame!

(For both of us being former Marines, I guess this shows we don't agree on everything. But let me add I respect your opinion.)

[Kirkendall]

How did it irreputably damage this great game of baseball? It didn't!

It's not that Rose did anything to hurt the game, but he broke the rule established in 1919 during the Sox scandal that threw the World Series (ironically against the Reds) and if we forgive the rule, who is to say it won't happen again. Players now know that if you gamble in baseball that you WILL be banned for life. If Baseball is to ban Rose -- arguably the best hitter in the game -- then it can ban you! Honestly, Rose is overrated. The only thing I respect out of him is his hustle. His stats are overrated and would be eclipsed by anyone that played as long as he.

Reinstatement can not happen. The fact that he bet only confirms it and if Selig wants my respect -- I'm sure he's looking out for my respect, cough cough -- then don't let Rose in. I respect what he did with his career while playing and would have respected it more if he would have just owed up to it and taken the guilty charge.

John Dowd is a good friend of my uncle and the evidence against Rose is so over welling that he eventually signed the agreement with Giamani (sp?). I think there are lines drawn here in that Vincent whose was a great friend of Giamani wouldn't hear of it to let Rose reinstated. However, Vincent and Selig consistently butted heads and what way for Selig to get the last laugh.

Rose is a money hungry pig that only cleans himself by diving head first into mud. He's a con man, he lied to everyone from day one and now his character is as tarnished as anyone. The Hall of Fame is not only an assortment of great ball players but one thing has changed recently. They also incorperate people with integrity, Rose has ZERO!

Baseball would be a better place without Rose in the general news. I want to hear about free agent signings, the NFL playoffs; not some crap about Rose that's been going on for over a decade.

Note to Rose - DISAPPEAR!

[BengalszoneBilly]

and if we forgive the rule, who is to say it won't happen again.

Note to Rose - DISAPPEAR!

Well as long as we're speculating here, who says if he isn't reinstated (which I believe he will be) it still won't happen? Who can say it hasn't happened, and we just aren't aware of it? I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Yes. Pete Rose is now a greedy bastard. Another symptom of his gambling addiction. But he ain't going anywhere. The crowd at the last game at Riverfront went wild with his appearance. He'll be back, and he'll go to Cooperstown to boot. Like it or not.

I'll bet you anything! Oops! Dammit. Now I just bet on baseball too for Petes sake.

[redsfan2]

You didn't add the most obvious to his list of character traits - LIAR.

C'mon redsfan2. You haven't told a couple lies in your life? I told one tonight trying to get laid, for "Petes" sake (;!

All in all, nothing in comparison to the situation Pete found himself in. The evidence against him was accumulated by a non-official commitee, meaning they didn't have to follow the rules of law. Had I been up against such an "Ad-hoc" tribunal, the words "Kiss My Ass" couldn't have rolled off my lips fast enough. For him to deny what we all know what really happened for 14 years is basic law practice 101!

The bottom line to me is he NEVER BET AGAINST THE CINCINNATI REDS! To hold him out for another 14 years is ludicrous. He's paid his price, and Fay Vincent couldn't carry Pete's jockstrap for promoting our National Pastime, betting aside!!

It's over. He admitted it. No harm, no foul. How did it irreputably damage this great game of baseball? It didn't! Not one iota. No one ever brings that up. Well I ask that now. Give me a list of the damages, and I'll start rooting against his immediate induction into the Hall Of Fame!

(For both of us being former Marines, I guess this shows we don't agree on everything. But let me add I respect your opinion.)

Your opinion does reflect the majority on this matter. Ask 10 people, and 9 of them are going to agree with you. Unfortunately ....... I'd be the 10th, and I wouldn't. That's cool. Ive said before that if we sat around and agreed with each other all day long this would be a pretty boring site. Lets take it by the points though.

First - Lying to get laid is not lying. It's adjusting the facts and the perception of the current reality in order to achieve a higher purpose. imho there is no higher purpose than getting laid. Do you really think that she believed every word of your adjustment and didn't add a few of her own ???????

A lot of the info that came into the hands of Giamatti was from private sources. It may not have stood up to technical legal standards, but it wasn't going to be used at that point for a trial. The possibility of one did exist, and that was part of the reason that Pete agreed to the offer of a lifetime ban. He had also filed a lawsuit which at the time was compared to one of the cardinals suing the Vatican. Point is that if there hadn't been anything there they wouldn't have been able to come up with the evidence no matter what tactics they employed. As far as lying for 14 years being law 101, I'd say like Petes comparison of drugs that it makes a better case for adjusting the legal system than it does as a defense. I think the laws were intended and should be used to make sure your rights don't get trampled on. I don't think it should be a lawyers job to use lies and sleight of hand tricks to get guilty people off.

The rule in baseball doesn't say that you can't bet on your team. It says that if you bet on baseball you will be banned for life. Joe Jackson would tell you that's just what it means too .... if he ws able to. Given that fact, I think waitng 14 years is downright generous. And remember the 14 years would have been up at this point if he'd come clean right away. As far as carrying his jock, I think as far as baseball ability goes that Pete is pretty much in a class by himself.

I do agree that it's over and that he admitted it. I even think no irrepairable damage was done to baseball, but I believe that because he was and is banned. His lifetime ban is what kept the game from being damaged. #1 on my list of damges is that it would make what he did a little more acceptable. That would lead to #2 which is the integrity of the game. In the final analysis, that is all any sport has going for it. Right now people put the sport of boxing about one step higher than pro wrestling on the ladder of integrity. Its corrupt, its a sham and everyone knows it. It still makes a lot of money, but then so does the drug trade. Thing is that nobody has any respect .... much less reverence for boxing anymore. I'm not saying that re - instating Pete would do that to baseball, but I am saying that it would be the first step in that direction. I don't want to see any step like that taken, not even a small one.

Lastly, I dont think the White Sox threw the series. I think the Reds kicked their ass fair and square. I think the fact that so much was made of some of the players taking money from gamblers and losing on purpose made the fact that the small market Reds from Cincinnati kicked ass on the mighty, big market, metropolitan, media darling White Sox a little more acceptable for the media and the masses. It was the only way they were going to accept the fact that the Reds had pulled off a major upset. I'm surpised that the same thing wasn't tried when the Reds kicked ass on the A's, and on the Yankees years before.

Could be the Reds weren't scrutinized on those wins was because the last guys that did something that was connected to gambling and the series got banned for life huh.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Good points one and all redsfan2.

My problem? I grew up watching Pete and the Big Red Machine. He was my idol. In little league I batted left and threw right just because that's what Pete did. When my brother and I played wiffle ball in the back yard, I was always Pete Rose. His playing is engraved in my memories so deep, I cannot bring myself to reason this dilemma out any other way. I'm too willing to forgive him because he's almost family to me and because of what he meant in my life. He was a hero and always will be.

[redsfan2]

Good points one and all redsfan2.

My problem? I grew up watching Pete and the Big Red Machine. He was my idol. In little league I batted left and threw right just because that's what Pete did. When my brother and I played wiffle ball in the back yard, I was always Pete Rose. His playing is engraved in my memories so deep, I cannot bring myself to reason this dilemma out any other way. I'm too willing to forgive him because he's almost family to me and because of what he meant in my life. He was a hero and always will be.

I hear ya. When they traded Kluszewski, I thought I was going to die. I was still ripping the arms out of my t shirts and sweatshirts when I went into the Marines.

If it helps, remeber that in all literature the greatest heroes are always in the tragedies. For some reason the 2 are always intertwined. Reactions like yours are also part of the reason that I have such deep anger for Pete. These guys, whether they like it or not are role models and they need to understand that their actions don't affect them alone.

If I really had answers to crap like this, I dam sure wouldn't have to drive a truck for a living.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I too remember big Ted at first base, Tommy Helms at second, and Pat Corrales behind the plate. The precurser to the Big Red Machine! God I miss that era.

[Kirkendall]

RedsFan - Great stuff.

Here's a little inside info. A family member of mine is a friend with John Dowd and he said that Rose was offered a deal by Giamatti to admit guilt with a true apology. The deal was a short suspension and complete reinstatement. So if Rose was so concerned about getting into the Hall of Fame, why not take the deal instead he's going through the deservedly scrutiny.

Billy - I know what you mean. I was a big Puckett fan growing up in Minnesota and when the domestic abuse charges came about, I was in denial. Even though he was acquitted.

[redsfan2]

RedsFan - Great stuff. 

Here's a little inside info.  A family member of mine is a friend with John Dowd and he said that Rose was offered a deal by Giamatti to admit guilt with a true apology.  The deal was a short suspension and complete reinstatement.  So if Rose was so concerned about getting into the Hall of Fame, why not take the deal instead he's going through the deservedly scrutiny.

Billy - I know what you mean.  I was a big Puckett fan growing up in Minnesota and when the domestic abuse charges came about, I was in denial.  Even though he was acquitted.

Thanks.

Doesn't surprise me a bit. One of the things that never gets mentioned is that Bart Giamatti absolutely loved Pete Rose.

He not only thought he was great for baseball, he liked him personally. That was one of the big reasons that the whole thing hit him so hard. I've got a lot of respect for Giamatti that he pressed the investigation and did what needed to be done in spite of not only his own personal feelings, but also that even back then, it would have been the easiest way out to just let the issue die. The guy had a lot of character, and the Dowd report while as billybroome has noted may not have been constitutionally septic was very thourough.

I think Johnny Bench had the best take on the whole matter. When he was asked what he would like to see happen with Pete Rose, Bench replied " I would like for Pete to have not bet on baseball." He didn't defend him or vilify him, he just wished the whole thing would have never happened. No matter what we think should happen now, I think we can all agree with that.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Johnny too. Johnny always was level headed, except for his choice for his first wife. What a disaster.