Starting the Controversy

[Who?]

Also, suprising that a Brown fan has more knowledge and understanding of our players than even some bengal fans do.

I never thought of it before reading the above quote, but that Who? dink sorta reminds me of Pushy.

I'm not kidding.

Maybe I am "Pushy"? What makes you come to this conclusion?

[DontPushMe]

STARTING the controversy? STARTING it? Are you working for pushy?

Try CONTINUING the controversy. Let see if Chris "Two Carry" Perry can last more than a few snaps, and then start talking about giving the PROVEN NFL workhorse Rudi Johnson a run for his money. If it happens, all the better. :player:

well he's more then 2 carry he's 3 catch for 30 yards

Thanks Kaz. You're so right. He's a catcher too. Not exactly major yardage, but hey...when you can't stay out of the doctors office, that's a lot of yardage!

Once again, it was one injury. Every player gets injured at some point. At least he had a bad rookie year for a reason. Rudi Johnson couldnt even get on the feild once, and he was perfectly healthy!

I fail to understand how its fair to compare a 4th year player (who took that long to become an NFL starter) to a rookie statwise. The only fair way to do it is compare their rookie years, and Perry's is way better. Case closed, lets futher discuss their production next year when we have more to work with.

[CTBengalsFan]

4th round pick... 1st round pick... 4th round pick... 1st round pick...

hmmmm, who would we expect to produce more?

[DontPushMe]

4th round pick... 1st round pick... 4th round pick... 1st round pick...

hmmmm, who would we expect to produce more?

Injured player... healthy player.... Injured player... healthy player

hmmmm, who would we expect to produce more?

[Who?]

Supposedly "DontPushMe" I am actually you.

[HairOnFire]

Supposedly "DontPushMe" I am actually you.

Let's be fair, I never said I thought you were the same person. I said you remind me of Pushy. And btw, maybe I didn't mean for the comparison to be an insult.

Then again, who am I kidding?

[HairOnFire]

Once again, it was one injury. Every player gets injured at some point.

Actually, the Bengals announced last season that Perry had injured his wrist while working out and would have likely missed a game or two had he not already been too injured to play.

Meanwhile, Rudi Johnson just kept churning until rushing records fell.

[walzav29]

Don't undervalue how important durability is. Rudi is a workhorse. I'm all for Chris Perry being great, but Rudi is tough as nails.

[redsfan2]

Haha, I was just about to say something like that.

Uh huh .... sure you were.

[HoosierCat]

I'm betting Rudi gets another 325-350 carries this season. So what does that leave for Perry?

Scraps.

As for the idea of the Bengals using more two back sets, haven't they said that for something like 10 straight years? The fact remains that with a few rare exceptions they've always preferred single back sets fronted by powerbacks who can hold up under huge workloads. And yearly yammering about throwing to the backs far more often typically gets shelved the moment the first whistle blows.

Tru, yet on the other hand they have never shown much reluctance to pass the rock around when they have a decent stable of backs. In terms of carries and catches, I could easily see this season looking something like 1997, when Dillon toted the ball 235 times, and rang up 27 catches, while Carter got 128 carries and 21 receptions. That would amount to more than scraps, I think, and give Perry a solid opportunity to prove himself.

Health aside, I think the biggest factor in how much Perry sees the field will be how well he's picked up his pass protection duties.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

4th round pick... 1st round pick... 4th round pick... 1st round pick...

hmmmm, who would we expect to produce more?

Injured player... healthy player.... Injured player... healthy player

hmmmm, who would we expect to produce more?

Backing up Corey Dillon and Curtis Keaton and Brandon Bennett with Scott Mitchell, Scott Covington and John Kitna at QB and with Brat in his first year as a coach for the Bengals

or

backing up Rudi Johnson and Kenny Watson who, in your own words are crap....

Chris "5 play" Perry is far more like Ki-Jana Carter than your gay lover, Corey Dillon. Compared to Carter, he is great so far....

But you are right, it all starts with one injury....

[CantStop85]

STARTING the controversy? STARTING it? Are you working for pushy?

Try CONTINUING the controversy. Let see if Chris "Two Carry" Perry can last more than a few snaps, and then start talking about giving the PROVEN NFL workhorse Rudi Johnson a run for his money. If it happens, all the better. :player:

well he's more then 2 carry he's 3 catch for 30 yards

Thanks Kaz. You're so right. He's a catcher too. Not exactly major yardage, but hey...when you can't stay out of the doctors office, that's a lot of yardage!

Once again, it was one injury. Every player gets injured at some point. At least he had a bad rookie year for a reason. Rudi Johnson couldnt even get on the feild once, and he was perfectly healthy!

I fail to understand how its fair to compare a 4th year player (who took that long to become an NFL starter) to a rookie statwise. The only fair way to do it is compare their rookie years, and Perry's is way better. Case closed, lets futher discuss their production next year when we have more to work with.

Rudi's rookie season was basically the 2003 season. He hadn't even seen the field until that year. Chris Perry's rookie season was BARELY better than Rudi's, but that's just because Rudi didn't get any PT as a rookie. Had Rudi got some carries I think he would have at least exceeded 2 rushes for 1 yard.

You can't compare Perry and Rudi's rookie seasons because they both did absolutely nothing.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I am a big ten fan and watch as many games as I can, every game I saw Perry play in B.J. Askew was a better runner, Perry definitely has better hands though.

As for the post earlier about Perry dragging his but up for the next play, when have you ever seen RUDI not get up by himself and be ready to carry the rock.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

At the height of his career, in the 1985 season, Walter Payton, one of the best running backs in the HISTORY of the league had 324 attempts, 1551 yards, 4.8 per carry and 9 tds.

Rudi Johnsons stats last year? 361 attempts, 1454 yards, 4.0 per carry, and 12 touchdowns. Not that far from one another....

So, tell me again how horrible and average Rudi is? He had a lower yards per carry, but more short yardage touchdowns than one of the greatest EVER.

[CTBengalsFan]

and for people talking about Perry being so good because of his college career, Rudi was a beast in college too.

in 2000 his stats were: 324 carries, 1567 yards, 4.8 ypc, 13 TDs

[ckj414]

At the height of his career, in the 1985 season, Walter Payton, one of the best running backs in the HISTORY of the league had 324 attempts, 1551 yards, 4.8 per carry and 9 tds.

Rudi Johnsons stats last year? 361 attempts, 1454 yards, 4.0 per carry, and 12 touchdowns. Not that far from one another....

So, tell me again how horrible and average Rudi is? He had a lower yards per carry, but more short yardage touchdowns than one of the greatest EVER.

Uh, yeah, they are far from one another. Rudi is pretty decent, he's a back you can win with...but he's no Payton. Rudi will never average 4.8 yards per carry over a whole season. And there is no chance he does it when he's in his 11th year in the league and is 31 years old, like Payton was in '85.

Rudi is like Walter Payton...now I've seen everything...

[DontPushMe]

At the height of his career, in the 1985 season, Walter Payton, one of the best running backs in the HISTORY of the league had 324 attempts, 1551 yards, 4.8 per carry and 9 tds.

Rudi Johnsons stats last year? 361 attempts, 1454 yards, 4.0 per carry, and 12 touchdowns. Not that far from one another....

So, tell me again how horrible and average Rudi is?  He had a lower yards per carry, but more short yardage touchdowns than one of the greatest EVER.

aaaahahahahahahahahahaha

omg thank you for posting that, this has made my day, funniest thing i have EVER read on this forum, hahahaha classic, oh man, that is funny stuff, and proof that you guys read stats wayy to much

Supposedly "DontPushMe" I am actually you.

Wow, you learn something new every day. I cant believe I didnt realize this sooner. How am I doing up there?

Rudi's rookie season was basically the 2003 season. He hadn't even seen the field until that year. Chris Perry's rookie season was BARELY better than Rudi's, but that's just because Rudi didn't get any PT as a rookie. Had Rudi got some carries I think he would have at least exceeded 2 rushes for 1 yard.

You can't compare Perry and Rudi's rookie seasons because they both did absolutely nothing.

No, his rookie season was the 2001 season. If you are going to give RJ 2 years of not counting and it being ok, Perry deserves the same thing. BOTH Perry and RJ played in 2 games their rookie year. The difference is, Perry gained 34 yards, including 2 clutch first downs, while RJ carried drinks to Corey Dillon while wearing his uniform (as opposed to in street clothes, like he had been doing the rest of the year).

And maybe RJ would of gotten more then 1 yard rushing, but he wouldnt of come close to 33 yards receiving. Even in a season when he was on the feild for probly 500+ plays, he STILL couldnt get over 90 yards receiving. Talk about one dimensional!

[HairOnFire]

In terms of carries and catches, I could easily see this season looking something like 1997, when Dillon toted the ball 235 times, and rang up 27 catches, while Carter got 128 carries and 21 receptions. That would amount to more than scraps, I think, and give Perry a solid opportunity to prove himself.

I'm sure before all is said and done we'll all have the chance to make the inevitable Chris Perry/Ki-Jana Carter comparisons.

Under your scenario every rushing attempt handled by Perry is at the expense of a player the Bengals just contractually commited to long-term. More important though is the way the Bengals have commited to Johnson in regards to sharing the rushing workload. Do any of you really envision a scenario where Rudi's workload is deliberately reduced by 125-130 carries per season? And if you really do think that's the Bengals plan, why did a very capable backup like Kenny Watson get so little work last season?

[HairOnFire]

Rudi will never average 4.8 yards per carry over a whole season.

Funny, I didn't realize that was the goal.

In fact, I've always assumed that the ypc average was just a stat. To be fair, it is a stat that is frequently taken out of context by fans who are unconcerned about the big picture, but we're talking about the real world here, right? This isn't some crappy fantasy draft we're talking about.

[HoosierCat]

Under your scenario every rushing attempt handled by Perry is at the expense of a player the Bengals just contractually commited to long-term. More important though is the way the Bengals have commited to Johnson in regards to sharing the rushing workload. Do any of you really envision a scenario where Rudi's workload is deliberately reduced by 125-130 carries per season? And if you really do think that's the Bengals plan, why did a very capable backup like Kenny Watson get so little work last season?

1. So? They put big bucks into CJ and still threw 1,000 yards worth of balls to TJ last year. Ideally, you'd want to use Perry more early, build a lead, and then favor Rudi down the stretch to run out the clock.

2. Yeah, I could see them liking the idea of reducing Rudi's workload a bit. As has already been noted in an earlier post, that kind of pace is likely to drastically shorten his career. As for why Watson didn't get many carries last year, look at who they had behind him: an injured Perry and second-year FB Jeremi Johnson, who also had weight, conditioning and injury issues last season. Shoot, I would have kept Watson on a short leash, too. He goes down and you have no one to spell Rudi, and nothing to replace him with should he get hurt.

[HairOnFire]

As for why Watson didn't get many carries last year, look at who they had behind him: an injured Perry and second-year FB Jeremi Johnson, who also had weight, conditioning and injury issues last season. Shoot, I would have kept Watson on a short leash, too. He goes down and you have no one to spell Rudi, and nothing to replace him with should he get hurt.

So you're saying the reason Rudi Johnson got a staggering workload last season is due to the fact they couldn't risk using Watson due to the fragile nature of the 3rd or 4th string backup? Please.

Watson could have filled the complimentary 2-back set role very well had that been the actual plan.

[HoosierCat]

So you're saying the reason Rudi Johnson got a staggering workload last season is due to the fact they couldn't risk using Watson due to the fragile nature of the 3rd or 4th string backup?

That seems fairly obvious, doesn't it? After all, Watson's 26 carries are, as far as I can tell, a team record: fewest carries ever by a No. 2 back. Even if they had decided against a two-back set, that still suggests they were keeping him on a short leash.

Back to the earlier subject, the idea that Rudi would have to get a lot fewer carries in order to give 120 or so to Perry doesn't hold up, either. The Bengals actually ran the ball less last season than they did in 2003, 437 rushing plays to 481 in '03 (and note passing attempts were nearly the same, 536 last year vs. 520 in 2003). In fact, '04 marked the second-fewest rushing plays run by the Bengals in the last five years.

In 2003, Rudi and Dillon combined for 353 carries, almost what Rudi did alone in 2004. Yet Bennett and JJ got 71 touches combined. Dial Rudi down to, say, 300 carries for the year -- still a heluva lotta lugs -- and you can give the ball to Perry 120 or 130 times and still have a few for JJ or Watson.

[HairOnFire]

So you're saying the reason Rudi Johnson got a staggering workload last season is due to the fact they couldn't risk using Watson due to the fragile nature of the 3rd or 4th string backup?

That seems fairly obvious, doesn't it? After all, Watson's 26 carries are, as far as I can tell, a team record: fewest carries ever by a No. 2 back. Even if they had decided against a two-back set, that still suggests they were keeping him on a short leash.

What obvious point are you making? Something about the fewest carries ever by a No.2 back being proof of the Bengals desire to use a 2-back set.

Again, the Bengals always spend their offseason talking about 2-back sets, the jet package, using the TE more, etcetra blah blah blah. But when the whistle blows they always chuck the fringe stuff and ride whatever horse they've got for all it can do.

And along those same lines, isn't it possible Watson was kept on a short leash because he isn't as good as Rudi? Seriously, as crazy as that may sound to some isn't it possible the Bengals didn't want to take carries away from their best back?

Yeah, it could be that simple.

[HairOnFire]

Back to the earlier subject, the idea that Rudi would have to get a lot fewer carries in order to give 120 or so to Perry doesn't hold up, either. The Bengals actually ran the ball less last season than they did in 2003, 437 rushing plays to 481 in '03 (and note passing attempts were nearly the same, 536 last year vs. 520 in 2003). In fact, '04 marked the second-fewest rushing plays run by the Bengals in the last five years.

Neither of us knows what the coming season will bring or if past examples will be repeated. But you seem to be dancing around an idea that I put forward months ago. That being, if properly spelled or used marginally different it's very possible that Rudi Johnson could gain just as many yards on fewer carries. And nobody would have a problem with that, right?

The rub comes when other factors are weighed. Does improvement from other vital positions like O-line and QB, coupled with production from RB's not named Rudi, result in more total plays. More rushing attempts. More passing attempts. The very definition of playmaking. Make first downs and create three more plays.

If the Bengals can manage this neat trick I have little doubt a role will be found for Chris Perry to fill. And wouldn't that be a nice change? But when it come to a winner-take-all battle between Rudi and Perry I think people are missing the point entirely.

[HoosierCat]

What obvious point are you making?

That they were extremely reluctant to put Watson in the game for any reason at all -- two back set, simple relief of Rudi, whatever -- in order to preserve the one viable alternative at RB that they had. Thus the record-low number of carries.

isn't it possible Watson was kept on a short leash because he isn't as good as Rudi?

I have no doubt that Rudi is better than Kenny. Frankly, I'm hard-pressed to think of one team in the NFL that has a better back at No. 2 than they do at No. 1. However, Watson's effectiveness on the few chances he got -- a 6.2 yard average per carry, plus 171 yards receiving, making him the team's No. 5 receiver after CJ, TJ, Kwash and Schobel -- argue that performance wasn't the issue.