Seahawks Sign Sharper

[Whur CHad At?]

Guys if we don't draft good, we are going down hill-fast. Trying to improve your team with stinky players, means you will be stinky.

I have lost my trust in Marvin, totally. You should be able to bring in buddies to your team.

[jjakq27]

Guys if we don't draft good, we are going down hill-fast. Trying to improve your team with stinky players, means you will be stinky.

I have lost my trust in Marvin, totally. You should be able to bring in buddies to your team.

I will agree that this is the year for Marvin. I am not saying he will get canned if we go 8-8 or less or don't make the playoffs. But he needs to really do something beyond 2003 and 2004 in order to be viewed as something different than the same old s**t from Shula to LeBeau.

He's got his new D-cordinator now, so I really expect bigger things from the same group of guys. No excuses.

[HoosierCat]

No kidding, if Marvin doesn't offer a peep of complaint it's immediately assumed that he wants to...but can't...because deep down he's just another neutered pup.

I've got a problem with that.

Because your stated assumption is wrong. I don't see him as a "neutered pup." That's silly. He's a guy who works for someone else who signs the checks...a situation I suspect many of us are familiar with. What would he gain by raising a fuss...except the fate of Sam Wyche? Withdraw gracefully, take the heat, think of the gig as a stepping stone to something better. Belichick had to suffer in Cleveland for a while, too...

[HoosierCat]

and second is the avatar is the Island of Misfit Toys. Somehow I feel like there is connection for all of us on Bengalszone.com.

Oh, I recognized it! Bets R/B Xmas special ever...maybe the best Xmas special ever. And yeah, it does seem appropriate.

[HoosierCat]

Guys if we don't draft good, we are going down hill-fast.  Trying to improve your team with stinky players, means you will be stinky.

I have lost my trust in Marvin, totally.  You should be able to bring in buddies to your team.

I will agree that this is the year for Marvin. I am not saying he will get canned if we go 8-8 or less or don't make the playoffs. But he needs to really do something beyond 2003 and 2004 in order to be viewed as something different than the same old s**t from Shula to LeBeau.

He's got his new D-cordinator now, so I really expect bigger things from the same group of guys. No excuses.

Amen x3,000

Especially after this. We've been assured that everything is in-house and in the draft. Yeah, well, we've heard that before.

Show me. :player:

[HairOnFire]

Here's my biggest problem with the "Good Soldier" rant.

It's based entirely on a complete lack of evidence.

As is the contrary.

True, but I'm not the one offering a finely crafted conspiracy theory that includes Mikes Browns hand shoved so far up Marvins butt that soP can work the jaw and tongue controls. No, I'm the guy suggesting that maybe...just maybe...Marvin's explanations are his own.

C'mon, isn't it possible that he has his own plan for this team and those plans included Sharper up to, but not surpassing, a currently unknown drop dead point?

[Whur CHad At?]

Marvin should of givin Jamie some of his money. I mean he gets a huge contract extension after every season. Maybe thats why our Cap number is like that...

Oh well, i am calming myself down watching chad in the gridiron stars competition

[HairOnFire]

What would he gain by raising a fuss...except the fate of Sam Wyche?

I'm not sure any of us could list all of the reasons Sam Wyche got fired...so why pick just one?

As for what Marvin stood to gain by voicing complaints instead of empty support, how about more control? Has there ever been a head coach or manager in this town who was more popular or second guessed less than Marvin? In Marvin we trust is almost a city slogan, right? And has there ever been a sports figure who had less popular support than Mike Brown? Sheesh, Marvin could simply repeat Bill Parcells cook-the-meal-buy-the-groceries rant word for word and he'd have all the weight he needed to undermine soP enough to get a bump on the Sharper offer. So why didn't he?

Well, he must be neutered, right? Just another good soldier bleeding his guts out for his retarded commander-in-chief, ehhh?

Nope, not buying it.

[Qc_Bengals]

There's still anthony simmons on the market. Trying to be positive

[HairOnFire]

Anyway, I am just bummed that this will be viewed by many as another case of Bungal-itis, even though we don't know all of the circumstances yet.

And judging from the healthy number of foreheads that have just been ventilated most Bengal fans feel there's no reason to wait until those circumstances are known.

You know whats funny? In hindsight, the Bengals would have been better served making no play for Sharper. No kidding, I think most fans would have simply shrugged and argued that the team was done in FA anyway. Instead, the Bengals came close and in the process broke hearts again.

Vote for Pedro.

[Whur CHad At?]

anthony simmons is a living medical statement...didnt help.

[Marvin-or-bust]

I went through about 3 stages... 1) Anger with a twinge of nausea. 2) Frustration with a serious undertone of dissapointment. and finally (where I am right now) 3) Trashed.

The only thing I can think of to make me feel any sort of hope is that there may be some more cuts after June 1st with the cap hit being placed on next years cap.

Maybe if we get a huge DT in the draft we wont need LBs. maybe we can just cut Webster and Hardy and play a 5-2. Yea thats it! Someone please call Marvin and tell him we are switching to a 5-2 D.

Vote for Pedro.

[HoosierCat]

What would he gain by raising a fuss...except the fate of Sam Wyche?

I'm not sure any of us could list all of the reasons Sam Wyche got fired...so why pick just one?

As for what Marvin stood to gain by voicing complaints instead of empty support, how about more control? Has there ever been a head coach or manager in this town who was more popular or second guessed less than Marvin? In Marvin we trust is almost a city slogan, right? And has there ever been a sports figure who had less popular support than Mike Brown? Sheesh, Marvin could simply repeat Bill Parcells cook-the-meal-buy-the-groceries rant word for word and he'd have all the weight he needed to undermine soP enough to get a bump on the Sharper offer. So why didn't he?

Well, he must be neutered, right? Just another good soldier bleeding his guts out for his retarded commander-in-chief, ehhh?

Nope, not buying it.

Well, I wouldn't buy that stupid characature of an argument you're trying to sell, either. But you just keep on building straw men and knocking them down, it's very entertaining.

One does not have to be a puppet or neutered or anything of the sort just because they're not inclined to antagonize the boss. As for Marvin's "popular support," Mikey long ago proved he doesn't give two turds what the masses think of him. And the Wyche example provides a perfect picture of what happens to coaches who start making waves.

I think it's pretty obvious from examples like the Sharper one (and for that matter, the Sapp one) that Marvin is hamstrung in negotiations by the Bengals' continued unwillingness to play the game like everyone else. But if you're Marvin, this isn't something you're going to change, no matter how much you complain or how much "popularity" you have. Moreover, this likely is not your last coaching stop. Even a modestly successful run in Cincy would make him the stuff of coaching legend -- and his next gig may feature more contract creativity.

So, no need to be a token or a neutered pup. Just an employee who knows what battles he'll win and which ones he won't.

[oldschooler]

The Bengals have won as many games (16)

since Marvin Lewis was hired (2003-2004)

than they did the 1999, 2000,2001 and 2002 seasons combined !

If some of you want to act like Marvin is "just a good little soldier"

then I think you are oblivious to the obvious.

[HoosierCat]

If some of you want to act like Marvin is "just a good little soldier"

then I think you are oblivious to the obvious.

Being a good coach and a good soldier aren't mutually exclusive, oldschooler. In fact, I'd argue they go hand-in-hand. No coach is going to get very far if he doesn't learn how and when he can and can't push the front office. And the subject of contract structure is one of those places where the front office's mind isn't going to be changed. That should be clear to anyone who's followed this organization for any length of time. So...why make a fuss? It wouldn't have changed the outcome.

[oldschooler]

If some of you want to act like Marvin is "just a good little soldier"

then I think you are oblivious to the obvious. 

Being a good coach and a good soldier aren't mutually exclusive, oldschooler. In fact, I'd argue they go hand-in-hand. No coach is going to get very far if he doesn't learn how and when he can and can't push the front office. And the subject of contract structure is one of those places where the front office's mind isn't going to be changed. That should be clear to anyone who's followed this organization for any length of time. So...why make a fuss? It wouldn't have changed the outcome.

The Bengals had OVER $10 million in DEAD money last year.

Does that sound like Mike Brown`s doing ?

To you ...it must.

Like I said...oblivious to the obvious...

[cover2]

They had a chance to make the team better and they failed. I would like to see some statistics of FA signing and where the Bengals are in terms of signing them.

Never mind I think I already know the answer.... the bottom.

What I don't understand is that there are many people on this board who are in denial about the Brown family. Wake up and smell the coffee!

We are still dealing with "it's my way or the highway" mentality.

[HoosierCat]

[The Bengals had OVER $10 million in DEAD money last year.

So? What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Or are you just so impressed with this factoid that you have to post it in more than one thread?

[HairOnFire]

Well, I wouldn't buy that stupid characature of an argument you're trying to sell, either. But you just keep on building straw men and knocking them down, it's very entertaining.

Thanky. Speaking as a hard working entertainer, it's always nice to be acknowledged by the little people whose love and admiration is so important to me.

That said, your good soldier rant is built on evidence so flimsy that Oliver Stone might be proud. Well, that's not quite true is it? Your rant actually works best when there's NO evidence at all. I admit that in it's most pure form the "Good Soldier" rant becomes bulletproof. Sadly, it may also be bulletheaded.

Look, I admire the beauty of simple things as much as the next guy. Who amongst us hasn't spent hours admiring a really smooth stone? But you'll have to do better if you want to convince me that Marvin lacks the power to build his team in almost any way he desires. Yes, I'm sure he's given a budget that he has to work with and has to conform to the way the Bengals prefer to do business, but that's pretty standard stuff, and he's had ample time to adjust to the system he agreed to work within. So forgive me for thinking it's all hardly worthy of a conspiracy theory built on the premise that Lewis is simply swallowing his complaints in the hope of leaving for another job. (Whahhhh?)

Joisey, you've actually come to the conclusion that Lewis is trying to bail? How in the name of Jamie Sharper is that possible? How does the "Good Soldier" rant get you THERE?

[HoosierCat]

Yes, I'm sure he's given a budget that he has to work with and has to conform to the way the Bengals prefer to do business,

Which is exactly what I've been saying. The "good soldier rant," "marvin is looking to leave" etc. stuff is all of your making; straw men and reductios ad absurdum. But like I said, don't stop, it's entertaining.

I don't question Marvin's ability to fire players, or make his own draft day choices, or even to chase whatever FAs he wants. I'm sure that as far as "power" goes, he got more of it than any bengals coach since Paul Brown himself.

But the rub lies in that bit about "conform[ing] to the way the Bengals prefer to do business." Marvin can choose to pursue any FA he wants...but the best FAs are going to require a level of contract creativity that those bengals' business practices preclude.

No need to dream up the perfect stone here, the actual evidence is there in abundance. If I'm wrong...where are the Sharper/Sapp-style deals? Where in the Marvin era have we seen any evidence of change in the bengals' approach to contract structure? We have, as has been pointed out, seen many other instances of change -- the firing of longtime (and less than competent) coaches, for example, or the increased willingness to reward nonperformance with nonemployment -- but when it comes to contracts...well, that door is closed, barred, locked and bricked up on both sides.

Until that changes, pursuits of players like Sharper will continue to turn out the same way.

[jjakq27]

Yes, I'm sure he's given a budget that he has to work with and has to conform to the way the Bengals prefer to do business,

Which is exactly what I've been saying. The "good soldier rant," "marvin is looking to leave" etc. stuff is all of your making; straw men and reductios ad absurdum. But like I said, don't stop, it's entertaining.

I don't question Marvin's ability to fire players, or make his own draft day choices, or even to chase whatever FAs he wants. I'm sure that as far as "power" goes, he got more of it than any bengals coach since Paul Brown himself.

But the rub lies in that bit about "conform[ing] to the way the Bengals prefer to do business." Marvin can choose to pursue any FA he wants...but the best FAs are going to require a level of contract creativity that those bengals' business practices preclude.

No need to dream up the perfect stone here, the actual evidence is there in abundance. If I'm wrong...where are the Sharper/Sapp-style deals? Where in the Marvin era have we seen any evidence of change in the bengals' approach to contract structure? We have, as has been pointed out, seen many other instances of change -- the firing of longtime (and less than competent) coaches, for example, or the increased willingness to reward nonperformance with nonemployment -- but when it comes to contracts...well, that door is closed, barred, locked and bricked up on both sides.

Until that changes, pursuits of players like Sharper will continue to turn out the same way.

I can think of one. Carson Palmer. He was signed two days before the draft.

[HairOnFire]

I think it's pretty obvious from examples like the Sharper one (and for that matter, the Sapp one) that Marvin is hamstrung in negotiations by the Bengals' continued unwillingness to play the game like everyone else. But if you're Marvin, this isn't something you're going to change, no matter how much you complain or how much "popularity" you have. Moreover, this likely is not your last coaching stop. Even a modestly successful run in Cincy would make him the stuff of coaching legend -- and his next gig may feature more contract creativity.

So, no need to be a token or a neutered pup. Just an employee who knows what battles he'll win and which ones he won't.

What didn't I get? Didn't you paint Marvin as being unfairly hamstrung...based in part due to his inability to overpay bad free agents like Sapp...prompting him to swallow his complaints because he knows he can't change a system he happily agreed to work within. And he swallows his complaints with an almost constant smile because he's already got his eye on his next coaching gig....where he'll presumably have enough control to overpay bad free agents like Sapp.

Hey, my newest straw man is wondering why Marvin keeps signing contract extensions? What should I tell him?

[HairOnFire]

If I'm wrong...where are the Sharper/Sapp-style deals?

In Oakland. I'm surprised you forgot since you keep making fun of them once they're signed.

[oldschooler]

[The Bengals had OVER $10 million in DEAD money last year.

So? What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Or are you just so impressed with this factoid that you have to post it in more than one thread?

Why didn`t you fully quote me ?

And why are you so hard headed ...when it`s obvious you`re wrong ?

[Jonboat]

I wish we could've got Sharper but even his agent said the Bengals offered a very generous contract & it wasn't about $$ . I read a few days ago that when he came to visit Seattle they had him on the jumbotron & had crowd noise blaring Jamie..Jamie when he came into the stadium maybe they just did better at recruiting him? If we would've upped the offer how would it impact the cap not only this year but how about next year? Don't we have a couple O-linemen going into FA next year ? Once we get to the playoffs or at least get over being 8-8, I think the FA will want to play here. I'd rather have someone who wants to be here instead of coming just for $$. I don't know about you guy's but I'm looking forward to the draft it should be interesting! GO BENGALS!!! Jonboat