Shazor Train- 4th round departure? Merged topics.

[schweinhart]

Both Nicholson and Bullocks should be around when Bengals pick in 3rd.

heh, we'll see :-)

Both Nicholson and Bullocks should be around when Bengals pick in 3rd.

As for Shazor, the Lions should take him at #41. Their SS starter last year is a 34-year-old UFA who they proly won't re-sign

...and this fellow used to be a Bengal....

Jackson, I believe you're right about Bullocks. He should move before Bengals pick in 3rd.

One question mark I got about where he gets picks are how he'll rate vs. players who played some or all CB in college like Marlin Jackson and Brandon Browner (both who would mainly play FS at next level except for quarters coverage).

I don't think Bullocks goes before Brodney Pool and IMO Bullocks would not provide the same degree of FS/SS versatility as James Butler, who I belive is the best athlete in the FS class this year.

But still, Bullocks showed a lot of skill and burst at the combine and has the college production to weigh in heavily come draft time.

As for Bracey Walker, let's hope he not Darryl Williams #2 and gets signed by Bengals for a grand return performance that is about 3 or 4 yrs past his skills peak like the Bengals did w/ Darryl a couple years back.

But even then, I'd rather see Bracey in stripes than Donte Nicholson

[chrishcovga]

Both Nicholson and Bullocks should be around when Bengals pick in 3rd.

As for Shazor, the Lions should take him at #41. Their SS starter last year is a 34-year-old UFA who they proly won't re-sign and they released a veteran backup SS this week. Point blank they need a SS much more than the Bengals and will move to get one early in draft unless they pick up a free agent before.

Actually Schweiney, I think we're in just about as bad or worse situation as the Lions.

. Bracey Walker was old and released already true, but Rogers Beckett probably won't be back unless he can get cleared medically which won't be decided until we're closer to the draft.

Beckett had numerous concussions last year and it's possible his NFL future may be in doubt according to Sporting News.com

[schweinhart]

Both Nicholson and Bullocks should be around when Bengals pick in 3rd.

As for Shazor, the Lions should take him at #41. Their SS starter last year is a 34-year-old UFA who they proly won't re-sign and they released a veteran backup SS this week. Point blank they need a SS much more than the Bengals and will move to get one early in draft unless they pick up a free agent before.

Actually Schweiney, I think we're in just about as bad or worse situation as the Lions.

. Bracey Walker was old and released already true, but Rogers Beckett probably won't be back unless he can get cleared medically which won't be decided until we're closer to the draft.

Beckett had numerous concussions last year and it's possible his NFL future may be in doubt according to Sporting News.com

No question the Bengals definitely need a SS who can play the run at least as good as Beckett, who I believe is done (when a player's got to frequently come off the field because he can't see, his days are numbered).

Plus, with Anthony Mitchell all but gone, the need for SS is even more pronounced.

Shazor fits this bill better than Bullocks but I question whether Shazor can be interchangeable enough to cover the way Butler can.

I doubt Brimmer is the man even though he's solid enough vs. run. I thought he looked decent in Senior Bowl covering short and in the middle but 4.8 straight line speed is going to drop his stock considerably for deep reaction and closing in pass coverage.

Overall, though, the Bengals run D problem ain't the SS, although they do have to have one who is stout enough to take on the likes of Staley and Jam at the line when necessary. The run D problem is mainly the DTs and the lack of contain at LDE.

[TJJackson]

Tell me why you don't like Nicholson after reading the following profiles

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/playerpro...tenicholson.htm

http://2005.otcdraft.com/content/profiles/...teNicholson.php

http://www.nflfans.com/draft/2005/showplay...nte%20Nicholson

http://www.draftboardinsider.com/players/S/nicholson-d.html

I see 4.48 speed on a fairly large, tall guy, who is said to be "a force against the run" and a "great tackler". I see "tough player" and "great work ethic"

I see the same "a little weak in coverage" kind of statements on both Shazor and Nicholson, so I think that balances out.

I place great emphasis on character because I think Marvin is looking for those types of guys, and I think he rises above Shazor on character.

On the James Butler thing: I like him as well, but I don't see us as being in the FS market because of Madieu Williams, and I see JB as a FS.

[schweinhart]

Nicholson may be considered highly for his work ethic and ability vs. run. He does have good speed and maybe can be taught pass coverage.

But I'll have a hard time getting out of my head how bad he was vs. USC where he was as useless as the Sooners CBs vs. USC receivers. Brodney Pool is an excellent CB and the total inability of the rest of the Sooner secondary to get anywhere close to decent coverage made him look the fool on big plays by the USC receivers because of how much ground he had to cover to make up for the inadequacies of the other DBs.

That's why I like Butler -- he has FS ability just a notch below Pool but a SS frame just a notch below Shazor. He'll drill a RB at the line and snag a ball high downfield w/ his 40-inch vertical just like he showed he can do in Senior Bowl. I can't verify it but I heard on NFLN that he had like 117 tackles in 2003 -- that's a lot of sticking for a FS, which he really isn't just that because he moves into the box vs. run.

But the Butler talk is proly all secondary for Bengals. I got him going to Rams in early 3rd and I like other players for #48. There will be other safeties in later rounds who can help fill the void left by Beckett and Mitchell.

[TJJackson]

well, I don't know that I throw in the towel on every member of the Sooners for one bad (ok, very bad) game against a top notch (championship, in fact) team.

about Butler - I think his combine time and reps are going to drop him a lot. I think he might be too slow to play safety.....see http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/...ositions/s.html

[schweinhart]

Brodney Pool is the best pure FS in the draft IMO.

Like you say, USC was a championship team but that's the kind of comp Nicholson and Perkins will face EVERY WEEK in the NFL and that test shows more IMO than measurables.

Nicholson and Perkins have definite upsides because of their speed. Their coverage skills lack but that could have as much to do w/ the offenses they faced.

And the 4.59 40 yd time by Butler is a definite rap but he reacts to the ball well and closes quick using his 40-inch vertical to make plays others simply can't make.

Strengthwise, Butler obviously can improve his upper body. But IMO the main strength factor he needs to improve is leg strength, which should improve his straightline speed.

It'll be interesting to see where Butler lands. I had him going to Rams w/ their 1st pick in 3rd but I read OLB Tinoisamoa is moving to SS w/ the signing of Coakley. I still think Butler will go in the 3rd and if it's at #83 I would not complain

[TJJackson]

I guess, aside from the slow 40, I am saying that if we take Butler I'd expect him to play SS rather than FS. Madieu is the MAN at FS, no doubt, don't want to create any doubts there.

That said, when I said I liked him, it was on his estimated speed of just under 4.5 or so that i saw on various draft profiles. Can't teach speed :-) gots to have it, particularly on Marvin's defense

[schweinhart]

No doubt Madieu is the FS..............unless

1. Bengals need him at CB for James or O'Neal. I'd go with Madieu at CB over Keiwan if injuries dictate or as nickel back. Depending how James plays in 2005, I'd rather see Madieu be the 2nd CB if James performance don't get it done.

2. Bengals need him as eighth in box to play vs. run. He did a helluva job knocking hats w/ Reuben Droughs in this role.

Madieu's versatility as a DB make him a defensive weapon that can blow up an O's game plan if the QB makes a mistake in accounting for Madieu in the wrong way.

Butler has versatility as a FS/SS. The difference between a 4.49 and a 4.59 is great for the safety position but Butler IMO makes up that .01 difference because of his instincts for reaction and timing in pass coverage. (And the 40-inch vertical do help )

Butler does need to gain leg and uupper body strength to transition to NFL SS position, even though he did play 8 in box at Ga Tech and played run well at that level.

[Ickeyshuffler]

I'll hop on the train as well - give the fins our 2nd and 4th rounders to move up in the 2nd and grab him. Barring injury, he will be a GREAT ss in the nfl. And, though D line is certainly important against the run, there really isn't much out there. Shazor would help a great deal in that regard - I could see him and Madieu harassing Lewis, Staley, and (if he's around) Bettis.

[schweinhart]

I'll hop on the train as well - give the fins our 2nd and 4th rounders to move up in the 2nd and grab him.

Can't do that w/ Fins because they don't have a 2nd rounder...yet. They might get one for Surtain.

Shazor would be an excellent 2nd rd pick but Bengals would most likely have to trade up IMO one pick above the Lions at #41. That would cost later picks, which I

d rather see ML use his talent evaluation skills on D to grab more impact players.

I like Attiyah Ellison at #48 -- the 305-pound DE turned DT from Mizzou who ran a 4.95 at Mizzou's pro day and has the kind of quicks at the LOS that would make him a stunting machine. Ellision would start at DT for Bengals if he's drafted.

[BersMrnsT]

Lions signed Kenoy Kennedy. Anyone think that we'd be able to nab Shaza with our 2nd pick without having to move up?

[BengalNation1281]

I hadn't heard about the Lions signing Kennedy...that makes me a happy panda

With that move being made, I think that Shazor will still be available when we pick in the second.

[schweinhart]

IMO Shazor should last to #48. With the Lions signing Kennedy and re-signing Bracey Walker a week ago, the Lions are set enough at SS not to burn a rd 2 pick on one.

There's the chance the Chiefs at #46 or Texans at #47 would consider Shazor in their mix of picks at that point. But I think it's unlikely either picks him.

Shazor definitely would fill a need for Bengals at #48.

If the Bengals do sign a UFA DT like Bryan Robinson or Ed Jasper, I'd just about rule out them drafting a straight DT like Attiyah Ellison or CJ Mosely in rd 2 and would say that Shazor would be the most probable pick at #48 with the 2nd likeliest then becoming Jonathan Babineaux because of his DT/DE versatility.

[ArmyBengal]

I hadn't heard about the Lions signing Kennedy...that makes me a happy panda

With that move being made, I think that Shazor will still be available when we pick in the second.

Holy crap dude, how'd I miss that one ???? SWEEEEET !!!

SHAZOR, SHAZOR, SHAZOR !!!!

WHODEY BITCHES !!!

[TJJackson]

I think as of the news about Beckett, SS needs to be our pick at round 1 assuming

http://www.nflfans.com/draft/2005/showplay...Thomas%20Davis*

is available

We have DTs in development, we really don't have a SS in development.

I don't think Shazor is worth the pick at 17.....

[BengalNation1281]

As those of us on the Train have stated numerous times, neither do we. I wouldn't want to take Shazor at 17, and I would probably be fairly upset if they did.

Shazor would be a great 2nd round selection...I think that the 1st round should be used to shore up the DL or LBs.

[schweinhart]

Thomas Davis would make more sense at #17. He's the best SS prospect in the draft plus has the versatility to play MLB if needed.

[ArmyBengal]

Thomas Davis would make more sense at #17. He's the best SS prospect in the draft plus has the versatility to play MLB if needed.

After his poor showing at the combine, alot of NFL coaches are wondering if he will make it big in the NFL or not. Due to his poor speed and lack of weight, they are saying is is only going to get looked at for LB. We don't need a tweener, we need a definite. Just my opinion, but now feel there is a better direction than Davis. Still looking for the trade down to happen. One can always hope for J. Sharper in a trade and Shazor in the second !!! :player:

WHODEY !!!

[ArmyBengal]

Oh yeah, just in case you were wondering....

Thomas Davis, Georgia, S

Disappointing seemed to be the buzz word concerning Davis and his sub-par running time (4.65) and low weight (230) has scouts wondering if he’ll be able to face the rigors of the NFL secondary. He’ll now most likely have to switch positions to LB and it would be something of a surprise to see him go in the first round, unless Brodney Pool and Ernest Shazor really screw up their Pro Days.

[schweinhart]

Thomas Davis would make more sense at #17. He's the best SS prospect in the draft plus has the versatility to play MLB if needed.

After his poor showing at the combine, alot of NFL coaches are wondering if he will make it big in the NFL or not. Due to his poor speed and lack of weight, they are saying is is only going to get looked at for LB. We don't need a tweener, we need a definite. Just my opinion, but now feel there is a better direction than Davis. Still looking for the trade down to happen. One can always hope for J. Sharper in a trade and Shazor in the second !!! :player:

WHODEY !!!

J. Sharper in a trade or a UFA signing of a proven 4-3 MLB by Bengals would reduce Davis' value for Bengals.

Davis did get hurt slightly by his combine time for SS consideration but I doubt Shazor clocked faster than 4.60 if he even ran at the combine.

As far as trading down, that seems the best route period if for no other reason than to give ML an extra pick that could turn out to be as good a value on the field as Madieu or Landon or Geathers.

[schweinhart]

Oh yeah, just in case you were wondering....

Thomas Davis, Georgia, S

Disappointing seemed to be the buzz word concerning Davis and his sub-par running time (4.65) and low weight (230) has scouts wondering if he’ll be able to face the rigors of the NFL secondary. He’ll now most likely have to switch positions to LB and it would be something of a surprise to see him go in the first round, unless Brodney Pool and Ernest Shazor really screw up their Pro Days.

I'd be wondering more what Shazor ran.

I seriously doubt he's more than slightly faster than Davis if that. Shazor's probably slightly slower than James Butler and no where close to Butler in pass coverage. If it's gonna be a SS/FS on Day 1, Butler is the better fit than Shazor, even if it means trading down w/ the 2nd rd pick.

[ArmyBengal]

Shazor is going to do his own pro-day workouts, so we will have to see I guess.

I did read up on Butler and must say he looks promising as well. Noted that Davis has been listed in many sites as going as an OLB. Just a quick look at the three:

Davis 6-1 230lbs 4.65

Butler 6-1 7/8 213lbs 4.59

Shazor 6-3 5/8 228lbs 4.45

Interesting numbers. Must say I have NO interest with Davis at OLB. Butler has alot of potential but little experience according to many sites. I think the combination of size and speed from Shazor still wins out in my book. Just my thoughts. Safety will get addressed in this draft and I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever ML does, but I'm still on the train !!! Choo choo !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Whur CHad At?]

ArmyBengalFan Posted on Mar 11 2005, 12:21 PM

Davis 6-1 230lbs 4.65

Butler 6-1 7/8 213lbs 4.59

Shazor 6-3 5/8 228lbs 4.45

I just wanna say that Safety is a unique position. Most Safeties in the NFL aren't blazing fast. So all i wanna know about Shazor is if he can tackle well, cover well, and do what most safeties have to do. That isn't something you get at the Pro-days or the COmbine. It isn't all about the speed here guys, he has to be able to do everything else right! If he cna't do that he is worthless!

[bengalboomer7]

I have the priveledge of watching a ton of Big Ten football and I can say that tackling and hitting are something Shazor can do just fine. My concern with him is the same with all the others - can he cover. Like I've said before Marvin likes to use his safeties interchangebly so both the FS and the SS needs to be able to stop the run and cover well.